Paul vs James who is right?

[justbyfaith]

Of course faith without works is dead. It remains that we are saved by a living faith alone. What about death bed conversions, where a person genuinely comes to Christ, but never has any opportunity for good works? Do they go to hell for lack of works? A living faith will exhibit works if given the opportunity, but a living faith that never produces works will still save.

 

[justbyfaith]

Psalms 78:19 (KJV), Yea, they spake against God; they said, Can God furnish a table in the wilderness?

I don't go by the NET because it is widely used by those who wish to deny the Deity of Christ and other sound doctrine.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Of course faith without works is dead. It remains that we are saved by a living faith alone. What about death bed conversions, where a person genuinely comes to Christ, but never has any opportunity for good works? Do they go to hell for lack of works? A living faith will exhibit works if given the opportunity, but a living faith that never produces works will still save.

Even a person on the deathbed can give all he owns to the poor, make friends with unrighteous mammon so that when he is helpless, he can be welcomed into eternal dwellings :

Matthew 25
26“But his master answered and said to him, ‘You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed. 27‘Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest. 28‘Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.’

 

[justbyfaith]

(continued from post #301):

Therefore a man is saved through faith alone, which produces works, yet the works are not salvational but it is the faith that saves.

I can do all kinds of works and they will not produce an inward change, but an inward change, which comes by faith in Jesus Christ alone, will produce all kinds of works.

Jesus said, I am the way and the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father except through me. He also said, Ye must be born again.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Psalms 78:19 (KJV), Yea, they spake against God; they said, Can God furnish a table in the wilderness?

I don't go by the NET because it is widely used by those who wish to deny the Deity of Christ and other sound doctrine.

That's interesting. NET is the only version that gives alternative translation options in its footnotes. Can you give citations for your statement?

 

[justbyfaith]

What about a homeless man who receives Christ in the last minutes of his life? You are implying that the sacrifice of Christ won't avail for him because he is poor!

 

[Wordkeeper]

What about a homeless man who receives Christ in the last minutes of his life? You are implying that the sacrifice of Christ won't avail for him because he is poor!

Even the thief on the cross evangelised.

 

[justbyfaith]

Acts 20:28 is a proof of the Deity of Christ in the KJV, not so with the NET.

 

[justbyfaith]

Even the thief on the cross evangelised.

The person genuinely receives Christ and croaks immediately afterwards. Saved or damned?

 

[Wordkeeper]

The person genuinely receives Christ and croaks immediately afterwards. Saved or damned?

There are only two ways to be saved in the New Coventry. Which way did your candidate chose?

Luke 14
31“Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Won’t he first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. 33In the same way, those of you who do not give up everything you have cannot be my disciples.

Pay the cost or ask for extending the deadline. Which was it?

 

[justbyfaith]

Funny, I was just reading that passage in Luke and was going to bring it up to you. What the passage teaches me is that no one can pay the cost, if they are utilizing their own resources. The only way to have enough resources is to bank on God's. And this means receiving salvation and an endless reservoir of Holy Ghost power as a free gift of the Lord's grace. If I rely on my own resources, I simply will not have enough to finish the building or defeat my enemy at war. At least, it is not guaranteed like the scenario where I bank on the Lord. And because my resources are finite, I'm not going to take any chances. If I bank on God, I will surely have enough. This is the grace of God.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Acts 20:28 is a proof of the Deity of Christ in the KJV, not so with the NET.

The word Son is not there, so both options are acceptable. NET chooses for probability. It doesn't mean they've given huge support for those who deny Christ's divinity because there are other texts that do teach Christ's divinity.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Funny, I was just reading that passage in Luke and was going to bring it up to you. What the passage teaches me is that no one can pay the cost, if they are utilizing their own resources. The only way to have enough resources is to bank on God's. And this means receiving salvation and an endless reservoir of Holy Ghost power as a free gift of the Lord's grace. If I rely on my own resources, I simply will not have enough to finish the building or defeat my enemy at war. At least, it is not guaranteed like the scenario where I bank on the Lord. And because my resources are finite, I'm not going to take any chances. If I bank on God, I will surely have enough. This is the grace of God.

If no one can pay the cost why should they count it, think carefully if they can start out on the task?

 

[justbyfaith]

Also you didn't answer the question. Is the person on saved or damned?

 

[justbyfaith]

If no one can pay the cost why should they count it, think carefully if they can start out on the task?

So that they can realize that they themselves are morally bankrupt and can't pay the cost; so they can realize their need of a Saviour and turn to Him.

 

[justbyfaith]

The word Son is not there, so both options are acceptable. NET chooses for probability. It doesn't mean they've given huge support for those who deny Christ's divinity because there are other texts that do teach Christ's divinity.

It could be the final proof text that convinces someone; and without it someone in particular may not ever be convinced of the truth. Therefore it could mean the difference between salvation and damnation for some Christadelphian or Jehovah's Witness. Of course we know that believing in the Deity of Christ is essential for salvation, John 8:24. Exodus 3:14, John 8:58-59, John 10:31-33.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Also you didn't answer the question. Is the person on saved or damned?

He didn't pay the cost, serve others. He didn't ask for terms of peace. He just stuck to mammon, trying to preserve his own neck by pleading, served himself. He didn't believe in Christ's ability to save. He believed in his own ability to whinge. That's not faith. What did he do to demonstrate Christ's ability to save, how was his faith perfected? He isn't saved.

The foolish virgins had faith. They came (were baptized, received spiritual food, the teaching they had to perfect their initial confession, like Israel, Judas) . They weren't allowed in because they had no proof of that faith.

 

[Wordkeeper]

It could be the final proof text that convinces someone; and without it someone in particular may not ever be convinced of the truth. Therefore it could mean the difference between salvation and damnation for some Christadelphian or Jehovah's Witness. Of course we know that believing in the Deity of Christ is essential for salvation, John 8:24. Exodus 3:14, John 8:58-59, John 10:31-33.

The person is going to ignore other, stronger proof of the divinity of Christ? Looks like he loves the darkness and is only looking for excuses to crawl back in.

 

[Wordkeeper]

So that they can realize that they themselves are morally bankrupt and can't pay the cost; so they can realize their need of a Saviour and turn to Him.

Actually its very clearly stated that if they realize they can't pay the cost, they should ask for terms of peace.

Literally, in the parable, terms of peace means they realize they don't have the strength to give up all their possessions and they ask God to do the impossible, give them that strength.

James 1:5-11
5But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind.7For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord,8being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

9But the brother of humble circumstances is to glory in his high position; 10and the rich man is to gloryin his humiliation, because like flowering grass he will pass away.11For the sun rises with a scorching wind and withers the grass; and its flower falls off and the beauty of its appearance is destroyed; so too the rich man in the midst of his pursuits will fade away.

 

[2tim_215]

I don't know where you got that but it wasn't from James. He is talking about how the rich treat the poor. I don't know what this, 'before man' thing is but the premise here is that in as much as you did for the least of my brethren you did unto me.

I don't think he's just talking about the rich, but Christians in general. You don't have to be rich in order to buy someone a meal who's hungry or provide some one with a blanket if they're cold. But to tell them to "feel warm" or "full" is not the way we should respond.

That much is true, we do represent a witness, doing your good works openly so to speak.

Like you imply further down, we are "known by our fruits" and our fruits come from our "good works". And it's those "good works" that Christians do which is what are seen by the rest of the world and which bring glory to God through the eyes of men in a world which doesn't even want to acknowledge that God exists, and let alone who is "good".

Well yes, how we treat one another is something the world takes note of. Through the course of this thread I have did a little research on Onesimus and Philemon. Onesimus was a slave that fled Philemon and Paul sent him back to Philemon with the letter that bears his name. Onesimus became a very important Bishop, the Orthodox still venerate him as a saint. A slave became a leader in the early church because his master had mercy on him, due to the intercessions of the Apostle Paul. That's the least of us become the greatest, and the greatest become servant to all. That's what Paul and James are working on, and it bore fruit.

To me, the major significance of Philemon is that it shows the Bibles (Gods) viewpoint on slavery which many claim falsely that the Bible supports.

Wisdom is vindicated by her children and grace is known by it's fruit. We are saved for good works, not by them. God is glorified by these good deeds, not the least of which is how we treat one another. If you do it to be seen of men you forfeit the praise that comes from the Father. If we do our good deeds openly God is glorified and we share in the joy that comes from grace.

I agree with you statement above we are saved "for good works" and not by them. What I'm saying though (and part of what I believe James is conveying) is our justification, which comes about via our faith but also our works as well, in particular to the rest of the world, as we set the example that God wants us to set. As we give a testimony and which serves to prove our sincerity via our actions thereby justifying our position in Christ. As long as we give God all the credit (for our good and positive actions) rather than attempting to glorify ourselves, all will be well. Blessings to you as well.

Grace and peace,
Mark