Paul vs James who is right?

[Wordkeeper]

That’s your argument? Lol

If you're so dismissive of the argument, blow it out of the water, instead of blowing it away. Give it a death blow with convincing arguments, with Scripture, if the Scripture references are difficult to identify in the arguments.

 

[2tim_215]

We're actually saved by grace, not really faith. It's through faith.

We're justified by faith. And I believe that there's two types of justification:
1) Justification before God (as in Abraham) which we obtain through Christ (Paul) and
2) Justification before men (which is what I believe James is referring to).
Men judge our dedication towards God based on our actions. And if we truly love God, then we will want to do things that will please Him which will manifest themselves in Christian "works". This is not a salvation issue, but practical James is telling us that somethings wrong if our "faith" does not manifest itself in works. So those who said that both James and Paul are correct are right. No contradiction, as usual, just misunderstood..

 

[AFrazier]

Because the Epistle of James is part of the antilegomena. Eusebius actually says the same:

"Among the disputed writings, which are nevertheless recognized by many, are extant the so-called epistle of James and that of Jude, also the second epistle of Peter, and those that are called second and third of John, whether they belong to the evangelist or to another person of the same name." - Eusebius, Church History, Book III, 25:3

The Antilegomena includes Hebrews, James, Jude, 2 Peter, 2 & 3 John, and the Apocalypse of John. As well as certain books which aren't recognized in the Canon today: 1 Clement, the Shepherd, Epistle of Barnabas, and the Didache. Eusebius calls these rejected (Book III, 25:4) but they are mentioned as Antilegomena in the the writings of the other fathers, and the Muratorian Fragment, and are also included in Codex Sinaiticus.

-CryptoLutheran

Okay. Fair enough. Guess I remembered Eusebius incorrectly.

 

[Wordkeeper]

We're actually saved by grace, not really faith. It's through faith.

We're justified by faith. And I believe that there's two types of justification:
1) Justification before God (as in Abraham) which we obtain through Christ (Paul) and
2) Justification before men (which is what I believe James is referring to).
Men judge our dedication towards God based on our actions. And if we truly love God, then we will want to do things that will please Him which will manifest themselves in Christian "works". This is not a salvation issue, but practical James is telling us that somethings wrong if our "faith" does not manifest itself in works. So those who said that both James and Paul are correct are right. No contradiction, as usual, just misunderstood..

Let's understand the situation. God's people are in distress. God sends us to bring them out of oppression. To reach safety, they have to cross a desert. Moses realised he needed something to convince Israel to come out of Egypt. God made him complete, equipped him to be able to bring her out. This is what we call grace, gifting.

How does manifesting good works to men match up with this gifting? I mean how do those works help in gathering?

 

[ToBeLoved]

If you're so dismissive of the argument, blow it out of the water, instead of blowing it away. Give it a death blow with convincing arguments, with Scripture, if the Scripture references are difficult to identify in the arguments.

You didn't even respond to my post but went into a whole nother thing, so I don't think that you want to respond to my post.

Maybe go back and read and respond to my post again

 

[ToBeLoved]

Let's understand the situation. God's people are in distress. God sends us to bring them out of oppression. To reach safety, they have to cross a desert. Moses realised he needed something to convince Israel to come out of Egypt. God made him complete, equipped him to be able to bring her out. This is what we call grace, gifting.

How does manifesting good works to men match up with this gifting? I mean how do those works help in gathering?

Why would you expect that New Covenant gifts of grace are comparable to the Old Covenant's freeing of God's chosen people? And establishing them back into the promised land God promised to them?

This is just an odd and incorrect comparison. Comparison is to compare two things similiar, not directly different.

How have your calling to works been like Moses? Maybe their is something in your answer

 

[Wordkeeper]

Why would you expect that New Covenant gifts of grace are comparable to the Old Covenant's freeing of God's chosen people? And establishing them back into the promised land God promised to them?

This is just an odd and incorrect comparison. Comparison is to compare two things similiar, not directly different.

How have your calling to works been like Moses? Maybe their is something in your answer

Paul said the events of the Exodus were recorded for our enlightment.

Jesus said he never came to heal people and feed the poor, social work. In fact He was irritated that He had to keep showing proof that God was able to save, free people from wasting their lives gathering and protecting earthly treasure.

How did God give proof? He made the water and food scarce and then provided. Now the people could forget about these things, because they would be added to them. They had to concentrate on being the promise made to Abraham: blessings to the world. How? By freeing THEM from chasing after earthly treasure. Repenting from futile activity.

You will find the exact same pattern in the ministry of Jesus.

We have to continue in this Way.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Paul said the events of the Exodus were recorded for our enlightment.

Jesus said he never came to heal people and feed the poor, social work. In fact He was irritated that He had to keep showing proof that God was able to save, free people from wasting their lives gathering and protecting earthly treasure.

How did God give proof? He made the water and food scarce and then provided. Now the people could forget about these things, because they would be added to them. They had to concentrate on being the promise made to Abraham: blessings to the world. How? By freeing THEM from chasing after earthly treasure. Repenting from futile activity.

You will find the exact same pattern in the ministry of Jesus.

We have to continue in this Way.

So?

The question you asked the other poster is what works did they do that are like Moses.

I'm still not getting your point here.

How does Moses or what happened in the Old Testament and Old Covenant have to do with us being saved by faith and your expecting works like Moses did?

Seems to me that you have no basis for the comment that you made even after I asked for clarification.

 

[Wordkeeper]

So?

The question you asked the other poster is what works did they do that are like Moses.

I'm still not getting your point here.

How does Moses or what happened in the Old Testament and Old Covenant have to do with us being saved by faith and your expecting works like Moses did?

Seems to me that you have no basis for the comment that you made even after I asked for clarification.

God wants His sons and daughters to bring souls out of laboring for riches that perishes.

When your pastor asks you to take part in an evangelism campaign, ask him the same question Moses asked God: "Why should anyone listen to my message?"

Don't forget, God gave Moses the proof that He was WITH Moses, that He could take them into the right place, become blessings to the world, work for treasure in Heaven.

What Adam was created for.

The point is that you can be in the right place, in Christ, only if His commands abide in you.

IOW, good works don't get you into heaven. Good works get you into Christ. That's a huge topic. This is just the start of a deep study.

 

[mark kennedy]

We're actually saved by grace, not really faith. It's through faith.

We're justified by faith. And I believe that there's two types of justification:
1) Justification before God (as in Abraham) which we obtain through Christ (Paul) and
2) Justification before men (which is what I believe James is referring to).
Men judge our dedication towards God based on our actions. And if we truly love God, then we will want to do things that will please Him which will manifest themselves in Christian "works". This is not a salvation issue, but practical James is telling us that somethings wrong if our "faith" does not manifest itself in works. So those who said that both James and Paul are correct are right. No contradiction, as usual, just misunderstood..

There's a balance there, we are a city on a hill that cannot be hid and we shouldn't put our lamp under a bushel. At the same time we should not be sounding a trumpet before us or performing our good deeds to be seen of men. In that culture the slaves were treated no better then pack mules, I think the poor James and Paul are talking about are slaves. The book of Philemon is about a slave named Onesimus, that slave is now considered a saint by the Eastern Orthodox. He had ran away from his master Philemon, Paul sends him back to Philemon with the letter that bears his name.

That's what both Paul (1 Cor. 11) and James (James 2) are looking at, believers are to build one another up in their faith. From that lowly station this man rose to be Bishop of Ephesus. In the church the least of us can become the greatest, and Jesus teaches how you treat the least of these 'my brethren' is how you treat him (Matt. 25:40).

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[ToBeLoved]

God wants His sons and daughters to bring souls out of laboring for riches that perishes.

When your pastor asks you to take part in an evangelism campaign, ask him the same question Moses asked God: "Why should anyone listen to my message?"

Don't forget, God gave Moses the proof that He was WITH Moses, that He could take them into the right place, become blessings to the world, work for treasure in Heaven.

What Adam was created for.

The point is that you can be in the right place, in Christ, only if His commands abide in you.

IOW, good works don't get you into heaven. Good works get you into Christ. That's a huge topic. This is just the start of a deep study.

Ok. I see where you are with this.

 

[justbyfaith]

Good works don't get anyone into Christ. We have access into Christ and His grace by faith. Romans 5:2, Romans 4:1-8, Titus 3:4-7, Romans 11:5-6, etc.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Good works don't get anyone into Christ. We have access into Christ and His grace by faith. Romans 5:2, Romans 4:1-8, Titus 3:4-7, Romans 11:5-6, etc.

did the body of Adam have LIFE before YHVH breathed into Him LIFE ?

 

[2tim_215]

There's a balance there, we are a city on a hill that cannot be hid and we shouldn't put our lamp under a bushel. At the same time we should not be sounding a trumpet before us or performing our good deeds to be seen of men. In that culture the slaves were treated no better then pack mules, I think the poor James and Paul are talking about are slaves. The book of Philemon is about a slave named Onesimus, that slave is now considered a saint by the Eastern Orthodox. He had ran away from his master Philemon, Paul sends him back to Philemon with the letter that bears his name.

That's what both Paul (1 Cor. 11) and James (James 2) are looking at, believers are to build one another up in their faith. From that lowly station this man rose to be Bishop of Ephesus. In the church the least of us can become the greatest, and Jesus teaches how you treat the least of these 'my brethren' is how you treat him (Matt. 25:40).

Grace and peace,
Mark

I'm not sure if I fully understand your point here but I'll try and respond. We are saved by grace, through faith. However, we are also justified (made righteous in Gods eyes) through faith through the righteousness of Christ. This is what Paul was talking about. James, on the other hand is referring to justification before men which is not a salvation issue per se.

Now some might say that justification before men (being made righteous in the eyes of men) is not important, and that it's only important in the eyes of God but in fact although certainly not as important, it does have great significance to us the reason being (which is what James is revealing to us) once a believer gets saved, our actions (works) becomes that believers testimony to the unsaved world.

You see, it's our actions as believers which become a "demonstration" of our faith to unbelievers as well as our dedication to God which could result in a positive impact on them and could ultimately result in their eventual conversion. As I said no contradiction between Paul and James, actually they're complementary to one another. It's our actions (works) which is how we prove our faith to mankind in general.

James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?
18 . . .Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

As for bragging about what we do for God, you're right we shouldn't do that. We should do these things quietly, as when we do the kind of "Christian works" that's pleasing to God, we are basically glorifying Him, not looking for any credit or gain as a result of doing those things. It should always be God who gets the glory, and we are not to be looking to glorify ourselves.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

In simple words:
Paul and James are in UNION WITH JESUS, teaching the FATHER'S WILL and PURPOSE and PLAN of SALVATION
with perfect wisdom and knowledge as inspired/revealed by YHVH to them.

Never any contradiction - no such thing as one VS the other as if opposed to each other,
as YHVH also BREATHED HIS WORD through them, and GUARDS HIS WORD HIMSELF.

 

[mark kennedy]

I'm not sure if I fully understand your point here but I'll try and respond. We are saved by grace, through faith. However, we are also justified (made righteous in Gods eyes) through faith through the righteousness of Christ. This is what Paul was talking about. James, on the other hand is referring to justification before men which is not a salvation issue per se.

I don't know where you got that but it wasn't from James. He is talking about how the rich treat the poor. I don't know what this, 'before man' thing is but the premise here is that in as much as you did for the least of my brethren you did unto me.

Now some might say that justification before men (being made righteous in the eyes of men) is not important, and that it's only important in the eyes of God but in fact although certainly not as important, it does have great significance to us the reason being (which is what James is revealing to us) once a believer gets saved, our actions (works) becomes that believers testimony to the unsaved world.

That much is true, we do represent a witness, doing your good works openly so to speak.

You see, it's our actions as believers which become a "demonstration" of our faith to unbelievers as well as our dedication to God which could result in a positive impact on them and could ultimately result in their eventual conversion. As I said no contradiction between Paul and James, actually they're complementary to one another. It's our actions (works) which is how we prove our faith to mankind in general.

Well yes, how we treat one another is something the world takes note of. Through the course of this thread I have did a little research on Onesimus and Philemon. Onesimus was a slave that fled Philemon and Paul sent him back to Philemon with the letter that bears his name. Onesimus became a very important Bishop, the Orthodox still venerate him as a saint. A slave became a leader in the early church because his master had mercy on him, due to the intercessions of the Apostle Paul. That's the least of us become the greatest, and the greatest become servant to all. That's what Paul and James are working on, and it bore fruit.

James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works?
18 . . .Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

As for bragging about what we do for God, you're right we shouldn't do that. We should do these things quietly, as when we do the kind of "Christian works" that's pleasing to God, we are basically glorifying Him, not looking for any credit or gain as a result of doing those things. It should always be God who gets the glory, and we are not to be looking to glorify ourselves.

Wisdom is vindicated by her children and grace is known by it's fruit. We are saved for good works, not by them. God is glorified by these good deeds, not the least of which is how we treat one another. If you do it to be seen of men you forfeit the praise that comes from the Father. If we do our good deeds openly God is glorified and we share in the joy that comes from grace.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[justbyfaith]

did the body of Adam have LIFE before YHVH breathed into Him LIFE ?

What do you think? And how does your answer relate to the question at hand?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

What do you think? And how does your answer relate to the question at hand?

What is written? (not what do I think)
What else is written
similar in GOD'S WORD about a body without breath, or a body without life ?

This is one inescapable truth recorded in God's Word about faith. (without works).

 

[Wordkeeper]

Good works don't get anyone into Christ. We have access into Christ and His grace by faith. Romans 5:2, Romans 4:1-8, Titus 3:4-7, Romans 11:5-6, etc.

As I have mentioned before, there is a pattern in the Exodus that bears remembering.

Israel left Egypt and started out to go to the Promises Land. Who reached rest? Those who were in the group . Who were in the group? Those who departed from Egypt. When a person became unclean by touching a dead body or other unclean object, he had to leave the camp. After cleansing, he could return.

It seems that people think that believers who leave mammon and join a church will reach rest, perfection, ability to be blessings to the world. But Joshua was a blessing to Rahab because she SAW God was with Israel!

The church is never going to be a blessing to the world unless it sees God is WITH her.

God is seen when His People lay down their lives (risk it like Joshua) and God resurrects them (like when God fought for Israel). If there is disbelief or ignorance that the world is blessed by believers picking up the cross and God saving, nothing happens.

The church will wander in the wilderness till all who don't manifest God's presence pass.

Picking up the cross can even be telling others what the real gospel is. Like I'm doing now. Hope you can see God saving me, by the opening of your heart that is occurring now. The removal of ignorance and disbelief. Saving me from criticism.

Faith is the wedding clothes. It is a sign that we believe God saves. Don't be like Israel.

Psalms 78:19
They spoke against God by asking, "Is God able to prepare a (wedding) feast in the desert? NET Bible

The wedding feast is the GREATEST manifestation of the manifestation of God's presence with a believer. Dress appropriately. Buy oil for your lamps. The bridegroom is waiting

 

[justbyfaith]

What is written? (not what do I think)
What else is written
similar in GOD'S WORD about a body without breath, or a body without life ?

This is one inescapable truth recorded in God's Word about faith. (without works).