Paul the heretic??

[timewerx]

Again there's no evidence brought forward only false accusations and conspiracy theories.

That's because I'm not actually trying to bring any evidence, nor accusing anyone in particular.

I am simply trying to point out a potential flaw in your reasoning.

Sincerity, persecution, and martyrdom - these things aren't unique to Christianity. Buddhists, Muslims, even cults can have those things.

They are not a guarantee that anyone who has those qualities and underwent very difficult trials cannot be a false teacher.

 

[Strong in Him]

What is the gospel first of all?

You may want to come to an understanding of what the gospel is before you let all the Paul hater's run amuck with their own agenda.

I know what the Gospel is.

This thread will become helter skelter soon.

I might ask for it to be closed soon.

I started it because there was a thread on the ministry of women. Discussing Paul's words on the subject is obviously fine, but 2knowhim replied by saying that a) Paul was a heretic, b) he did not write any of the NT because the New Covenant, or testament, is the Gospels, the words of Jesus, and c) the Holy Spirit would allow false writings into the Bible because the Bible is not the word of God.
I started this thread only to be able to discuss these matters with him in more detail, without going off topic from the discussion about women's ministry. So far, he has not joined the discussion, but started a thread of his own with the same title as this one.
I'm beginning to feel that this one is rather pointless.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I know what the Gospel is.



I might ask for it to be closed soon.

I started it because there was a thread on the ministry of women. Discussing Paul's words on the subject is obviously fine, but 2knowhim replied by saying that a) Paul was a heretic, b) he did not write any of the NT because the New Covenant, or testament, is the Gospels, the words of Jesus, and c) the Holy Spirit would allow false writings into the Bible because the Bible is not the word of God.
I started this thread only to be able to discuss these matters with him in more detail, without going off topic from the discussion about women's ministry. So far, he has not joined the discussion, but started a thread of his own with the same title as this one.
I'm beginning to feel that this one is rather pointless.

As the OP you have the right to reply and request that the thread stay on topic and others start their own thread. Do not let them steal your thread.

If they refuse to stay on topic, report them. The mod's will force them to stay on topic or discipline them. The OP does have the power to keep the thread in order.

You can say things like

That is off topic for this thread. The topic is xxxxxxx. Please stay on topic or start your own thread.

The topic of this thread is xxxxx and if you would like to discuss another topic, please start your own thread.

Don't let them pull your thread away from you. Politely keep them on topic and report those who refuse.

 

[Colter]

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

How many times does Paul use the word 'grace' and by God's grace. In Christ and through Christ.

What are you talking about? You don't even know the Bible yet tell us what and who Paul was.

Start quoting verses and facts. Your two sentence explanations with your own lack of knowledge are pure speculation.

Up your game. If you don't know, say you don't know. Own your own ignorance and lack of knowledge.

I'm talking about the "good news" Jesus preached for over 3 years before the cross. Paul never knew Jesus and was opposed to the movement until his rebirth.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I'm talking about the "good news" Jesus preached for over 3 years before the cross. Paul never knew Jesus and was opposed to the movement until his rebirth.

Every Christian knows that Paul, was formerly Saul a Pharisee.

So what? Jesus changed His name to Paul and converted Him. JESUS named Paul an Apostle. Every other Apostle named by Jesus also acknowledged Paul as an Apostle.

We were all enemies of Christ before we became Christ's Own. So why do you make all these false accusations against Paul?

What are your problems with Paul. I'll answer any of your questions.

 

[Colter]

Every Christian knows that Paul, was formerly Saul a Pharisee.

So what? Jesus changed His name to Paul and converted Him. JESUS named Paul an Apostle. Every other Apostle named by Jesus also acknowledged Paul as an Apostle.

We were all enemies of Christ before we became Christ's Own. So why do you make all these false accusations against Paul?

What are your problems with Paul. I'll answer any of your questions.

I haven't made any false accusations against Paul, I don't have a problem with him, he was one of many evangelist who had the conversion experience. The Gentile world heard about Jesus through Paul, they thought so much of him that they made his letters the Word of God. I've only pointed out that Paul taught the new Gospel of Christ and him crucified, bringing his own ideas to the new religion about Jesus.

 

[Hank77]

Deleted post, OFF TOPIC

 

[ToBeLoved]

I haven't made any false accusations against Paul, I don't have a problem with him, he was one of many evangelist who had the conversion experience. The Gentile world heard about Jesus through Paul, they thought so much of him that they made his letters the Word of God. I've only pointed out that Paul taught the new Gospel of Christ and him crucified, bringing his own ideas to the new religion about Jesus.

Paul brought no new ideas to Christ crucified.

That's maybe where I am not understanding your statement.

 

[1213]

...can Paul be trusted or did he preach a different Gospel?

Thoughts?

In this I agree with Peter.

Therefore, beloved, seeing that you look for these things, be diligent to be found in peace, without blemish and blameless in his sight. Regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote to you; as also in all of his letters, speaking in them of these things. In those are some things hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unsettled twist, as they also do to the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
2 Pet. 3:14-16

Paul teaches well, but his teachings can be twisted for wrong uses easily, if not understood correctly, or if person wants to develop own religion or sect.

Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual things. Now the natural man doesn't receive the things of God's Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can't know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual discerns all things, and he himself is judged by no one.
1 Cor. 2:13-15

 

[ToBeLoved]

In this I agree with Peter.

Therefore, beloved, seeing that you look for these things, be diligent to be found in peace, without blemish and blameless in his sight. Regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote to you; as also in all of his letters, speaking in them of these things. In those are some things hard to be understood, which the ignorant and unsettled twist, as they also do to the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
2 Pet. 3:14-16

Paul teaches well, but his teachings can be twisted for wrong uses easily, if not understood correctly, or if person wants to develop own religion or sect.

Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual things. Now the natural man doesn't receive the things of God's Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can't know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual discerns all things, and he himself is judged by no one.
1 Cor. 2:13-15

I agree.

I also think that it helps to know who the Book is being written to. Most of them were written to churches, such as the Church of Ephesus, Phillipi, Galatia, Rome, Corinth, Thessalonica, ect.

Each church had different issues. So some read Pauls Epistles to specific churches and cup them all together, but each one is to a specific church that is having specific problems. Or people do not realize that Paul started all these churches on his missionary journey's, so they see Paul as a busy body know it all correcting everyone. When really Paul is shepherding these churches after he left them when larger problems arose.

I find most people do not understand what the context is and run away with concepts.

 

[1John2:4]

Paul sums the law teachings up with not causing harm and the dietary laws with "everything that does not come faith is sin" . It gives us the freedom to use the mind of Christ that God gave us. The law as Paul taught in galatians is aptly compared to the slavery of egypt. In the prophets there was a phrase God used regarding "going back to Egypt" . the law is like that, we have something better now, related to a "promise."

Freedom to do what? Sin? The bondage is sin (flesh) not God's perfect instructions that purify the soul.
Psalm 19:7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul; The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;

 

[1John2:4]

Me neither.

Matthew 7: 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

 

[ewq1938]

Yes, all the other disciples accepted Paul. One thing the anti-Paul people avoid like the plague.

It's mostly there lack of knowledge of the Bible that causes them to fall for clever dividers of Christ's Kingdom.

Exactly. Scripture speaks of the church having those that are wolves in sheep's clothing. This is a perfect example.

 

[ewq1938]

I haven't made any false accusations against Paul, I don't have a problem with him, he was one of many evangelist who had the conversion experience. The Gentile world heard about Jesus through Paul, they thought so much of him that they made his letters the Word of God. I've only pointed out that Paul taught the new Gospel of Christ and him crucified, bringing his own ideas to the new religion about Jesus.

There is one false accusation right there. Paul's ideas came from Christ himself as he was divinely taught.

 

[W2L]

Freedom to do what? Sin? The bondage is sin (flesh) not God's perfect instructions that purify the soul.
Psalm 19:7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul; The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;

Circumcise your ears brother. Let him who has ears hear.


Psalm 119:18 Open my eyes that I may see wonderful things in your law.

Matthew 13:16 But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear. 17 For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

 

[Strong in Him]

Matthew 7: 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

God's will for us is stated in John 6:40 - to believe in Jesus and receive eternal life.
Jesus is the only way to the Father, John 14:6, the giver of life, John 10:10, who came to give his life as a ransom for many, Mark 10:45 and pour out his blood for the forgiveness of sins, Matthew 26:28.
This is what God wants for us, that we accept his Son.

. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Lawlessness is another word for sin. This verse doesn't mean that Gentiles, who were not given the law and were never under it, have to put themselves under it in order to be saved or to serve God. Jesus told the Jews that he had come to fulfil their law - why would he insist that Gentiles become subject to it and ruled by it?

 

[1John2:4]

God's will for us is stated in John 6:40 - to believe in Jesus and receive eternal life.
Jesus is the only way to the Father, John 14:6, the giver of life, John 10:10, who came to give his life as a ransom for many, Mark 10:45 and pour out his blood for the forgiveness of sins, Matthew 26:28.
This is what God wants for us, that we accept his Son.



Lawlessness is another word for sin. This verse doesn't mean that Gentiles, who were not given the law and were never under it, have to put themselves under it in order to be saved or to serve God. Jesus told the Jews that he had come to fulfil their law - why would he insist that Gentiles become subject to it and ruled by it?

Sin is transgression if Gods law 1 John 3:4

 

[Gregory Thompson]

No it isn't. The reformers would have been horrified at the idea that the truth was whatever the culture of the time happened to find congenial.




I'm not getting mad at the Church. I am getting mad at the mentality of the present day. Creating a designer God is to create an idol, and that flies directly in the face of the second commandment.




There are a lot of things which have brought us to where we are.

Protestant theology wouldn't have spread around the world if it were not attached to the nations of europe at the time. One of the stowaway ideas from Europe was capitalism.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Freedom to do what? Sin? The bondage is sin (flesh) not God's perfect instructions that purify the soul.
Psalm 19:7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul; The testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple;

I believe those were the questions Pauls retractors were asking. In the same way God just is, there is also a freedom that is.

 

[W2L]

Protestant theology wouldn't have spread around the world if it were not attached to the nations of europe at the time. One of the stowaway ideas from Europe was capitalism.

Now however the stowaway is socialism.