Paul lying?

[MikeK]

The Torah states directly that you cannot light a fire on the Sabbath. I could post the verse if you desire, but it's in there. So, lighting a fire would be a sin. You maintain that one cannot commit a sin even if it would be a moral good, yes?

I maintain that that is Catholic moral theology. I don't know what God expected of cultures prior to Chirst.

 

[LoAmmi]

I maintain that that is Catholic moral theology. I don't know what God expected of cultures prior to Chirst.

Alright. I just find it so weird that the truth of one man is worth more than the life of another. But that's your theology so I can't say it's wrong.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

We are not talking about graduality of sin but of the morality of doing evil. Not everything that is forbidden by God is evil. It is not evil for God to heal a man on the Sabbath or any other day. This is one of the most very basic (though not always easy to understand) bits of moral theology. You may not do evil. What is evil? Lying is evil. Murder is evil. Profaning the Eucharist is evil. Abortion is evil.

What is not automatically evil? Working on the sabbath is not evil. Killing human beings is not automatically evil.

I want to make sure that my previous comment about Jesus and him healing a man on the Sabbath is clarified. Since Jesus and the Apostles are priests they were allowed to work on the Sabbath. The Pharisees didn't recognize this and were falsely accusing Jesus of going against the law by healing a man on the Sabbath. But Jesus' rebuke of them was the point I wanted to make. He rebuked the Pharisees because they were using a man-made law as an excuse to neglect one of God's commandments.

If you were a German living in Nazi Germany, and you were hiding a Jewish family in your house, and the Nazi SS came to your door and asked if there are any Jews in the house, you would answer yes?

 

[SpyderByte]

Saint Paul is not addressing himself, he is putting himself in the position of somebody who might try to make this argument. The next verse clarifies the point he is making and says their (3rd Person) condemnation is just. He is saying that you cannot justify your sins by saying something positive came out of it. Verse 5 gives an example. Our unrighteousness shows just how righteous God is which enhances his glory but we will not escape judgment because of this fact so we must ask for forgiveness.

Well exegeted!

 

[seekingfreedom]

Catholics have venial sins and mortal sins. I would say that in this case, lying to save an innocent life would be like balancing a venial sin against a mortal sin. I hope I would choose lying in this case. I'm not even sure it would be a sin. God has the last word.

 

[LoAmmi]

If you were a German living in Nazi Germany, and you were hiding a Jewish family in your house, and the Nazi SS came to your door and asked if there are any Jews in the house, you would answer yes?

From what I understand, his answer might be "Why would I be hiding Jews?" or "Are you stupid? Don't you know the penalty for hiding Jews?".

It seems like deception isn't counted among lying.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

From what I understand, his answer might be "Why would I be hiding Jews?" or "Are you stupid? Don't you know the penalty for hiding Jews?".

It seems like deception isn't counted among lying.

What if the Nazi SS officer answered back, "Yes, I know the penalty. Answer now, yes or no, or we are coming in to search for ourselves. And if there are any hiding in here we will find them."

 

[LoAmmi]

What if the Nazi SS officer answered back, "Yes, I know the penalty. Answer now, yes or no, or we are coming in to search for ourselves. And if there are any hiding in here we will find them."

I suppose you remain silent and get killed, then the Jews you are hiding are found and killed.

 

[MikeK]

I want to make sure that my previous comment about Jesus and him healing a man on the Sabbath is clarified. Since Jesus and the Apostles are priests they were allowed to work on the Sabbath. The Pharisees didn't recognize this and were falsely accusing Jesus of going against the law by healing a man on the Sabbath. But Jesus' rebuke of them was the point I wanted to make. He rebuked the Pharisees because they were using a man-made law as an excuse to neglect one of God's commandments.

It is not evil to work on the Sabbath. It is evil to lie.

If you were a German living in Nazi Germany, and you were hiding a Jewish family in your house, and the Nazi SS came to your door and asked if there are any Jews in the house, you would answer yes?

I don't know what I would answer. Such a person doesn not have a right to the truth, and lying is always evil and we cannot do evil so that good may come. I might make an attempt to kill that person, acting as a non traditional combatant in a just war. I might lie,knowing full well that what I was doing was forbidden but trusting in the Blood of Christ anyway.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

It is not evil to work on the Sabbath. It is evil to lie.



I don't know what Inwould answer. Such a person doesn not have a right to the truth, and lying is always evil and we cannot do evil so that good may come. I might make an attempt to kill that person, acting as a non traditional combatant in a just war. I might lie,knowing full well that what I was doing was forbidden but trusting in the Blood of Christ anyway.

Killing to save a life is better than telling a lie to save a life? That's disturbing.

 

[MikeK]

Killing to save a life is better than telling a lie to save a life? That's disturbing.

Killing is not always evil, lying always is. I don't make the rules, God does. Killing Nazis who are rounding up Jews to put into concentration camps was permissible both as an act of defense of an innocent person and of just war.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Killing is not always evil, lying always is. I don't make the rules, God does. Killing Nazis who are rounding up Jews to put into concentration camps was permissible both as an act of defense of an innocent person and of just war.

If a German hiding a Jewish family in his house would have answered the Nazi SS officer's question with "Yes, they are hiding here," do you believe that they would have been doing the right thing?

Or, here's another question:

Do you believe that a Catholic would be committing a sin if they work as an undercover police officer since this situation involves deception?

Or, in time of war, do you believe that it's a sin for a country to use camouflage, concealment, and deception tactics such as what was done by the Allied Forces during WWII?

Edit:

I just found this article about it:
Pope Francis and lying to save life

 

[MikeK]

If a German hiding a Jewish family in his house would have answered the Nazi SS officer's question with "Yes, they are hiding here," do you believe that they would have been doing the right thing?

Nope.

Or, here's another question:

Do you believe that a Catholic would be committing a sin if they work as an undercover police officer since this situation involves deception?

Deception is not always evil - the truth is owed to people who have a right to it, and lying is always evil. There is a lot of wiggle room there, and undercover officers can licit lay deceive but not lie.

Or, in time of war, do you believe that it's a sin for a country to use camouflage, concealment, and deception tactics such as what was done by the Allied Forces during WWII?

Of course not. Painting vehicles to match terrain and launching feigned strikes in a war are not examples of lying and these questions are getting rather ridiculous.

I just found this article about it:
Pope Francis and lying to save life

That's a good summary.

 

[LoAmmi]

Would you say it would be nearly impossible for a Catholic to be a spy since it would be nearly impossible to infiltrate an organization without lying? Just giving a different name when asked is a lie, after all.

 

[MikeK]

Would you say it would be nearly impossible for a Catholic to be a spy since it would be nearly impossible to infiltrate an organization without lying? Just giving a different name when asked is a lie, after all.

There is the concept of mental reservation, which is to reserve in one's head part of a conversation.
Bad guy: what is your name?
Spy: my name is (not) bill smith, I am (not) interested in joining your campaign and working for you.

That strikes me as behind the limits of what can be done, but respected moral theologians have suggested that that does not amount to a lie. The people who argue these topics should be people who have a solid grasp on the subject matter. I would not say that I do, and it is rather clear that nobody else in the discussion does either.

 

[seekingfreedom]

CCC 2482 "A lie consists in speaking a falsehood with the intention of deceiving" If someone is lying to save an innocent person's life is his intention to deceive, or is that person's intention to save a life?
Really good article:
Is Lying Ever Right? | Catholic Answers

 

[classicalhero]

Let's not forget that God blessed Ruth for lying to the authorities about the presence of the Jews.

 

[LoAmmi]

There is the concept of mental reservation, which is to reserve in one's head part of a conversation.
Bad guy: what is your name?
Spy: my name is (not) bill smith, I am (not) interested in joining your campaign and working for you.

That strikes me as behind the limits of what can be done, but respected moral theologians have suggested that that does not amount to a lie. The people who argue these topics should be people who have a solid grasp on the subject matter. I would not say that I do, and it is rather clear that nobody else in the discussion does either.

"This car hasn't (not) been in an accident that caused significant damage"

I foresee a problem with this....

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Jacob used deception in order to get God's blessing from his father Isaac. It seems intuitive that lying or deception, like killing, can be good or evil depending on the circumstances and on the intention of the individual. If the lie is told to someone evil in order to save the life of innocent people then it seems like lying in that case isn't evil. But if it's a lie that hurts people, a lie against the infallible teachings of the Church, or a lie that causes someone innocent to die then there's no question that it would be evil. Jimmy Akin of Catholic Answers said in his article that perhaps the Catholic Church might develop this doctrine more later. Here's part of the article:

Pope Francis

It is well-known that during his lifetime, Pope Francis's homeland of Argentina has been wracked by problems, including a brutal dictatorship that kidnapped and killed large numbers of its own citizens.

This caused the Argentine people to face situations similar to those in Nazi-controlled territories, and some of them arrived at some of the same solutions in dealing with them.

Recently, a set of interviews with then-Cardinal Bergoglio was published in English as Pope Francis: His Life in His Own Words.

It's a fascinating read, and it contains some passages pertinent to our subject:

[Interviewer:] Apart from hiding people, did you do anything else?

[Cardinal Bergoglio:] I once smuggled a young man out of the country via Foz do Iguaçu in Brazil.

He looked quite a bit like me, carried my identity card, was wearing priest’s clothing, with the clerical collar, and in that way I managed to save his life.

I did what I could for my age and, with the few contacts I had, to plead for people who had been kidnapped.

I got to meet with General Jorge Videla and Admiral Emilio Massera twice.

In one of my attempts to talk to Videla, I managed to find out which military chaplain celebrated the Mass and persuaded him to say he was sick and to send me in his place.

I remember that I celebrated Mass in the residence of the commander in chief of the army, before the whole Videla family, one Saturday afternoon.

Afterward, I asked Videla if I could have a word with him, with the intention of finding out where the arrested priests were being held.

. . .

It is true that Jalics—who was born in Hungary but was an Argentine citizen with an Argentine passport—wrote to me while I was still the provincial superior to ask me to do this for him because he had a justified fear of coming to Argentina and being arrested again.

So I sent the authorities a written request—not mentioning the real reason, but stating that the trip was very expensive—for him to be able to get it seen to at the embassy in Bonn.

I delivered the letter by hand, and the civil servant to whom I gave it asked me what had caused Jalics to leave so suddenly. “He and his friend were accused of being guerrilla fighters, but they had nothing to do with any such thing,” I answered. “Give me the letter, then, and you’ll get the reply in due course,” he said.

(Read more)​

 

[classicalhero]

There is the concept of mental reservation, which is to reserve in one's head part of a conversation.
Bad guy: what is your name?
Spy: my name is (not) bill smith, I am (not) interested in joining your campaign and working for you.

That strikes me as behind the limits of what can be done, but respected moral theologians have suggested that that does not amount to a lie. The people who argue these topics should be people who have a solid grasp on the subject matter. I would not say that I do, and it is rather clear that nobody else in the discussion does either.

A lie is quite frankly is not telling the truth.