Pastor Who Eulogized Aretha Franklin Under Fire for Comments

Belk

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You really get the idea that someone's learned what a non sequitur is really thinks bleating "non sequitur" everytime they read an argument they don't like somehow, nevermind if it is one or not, replaces the need for a coherent response.

It doesn't.

There should be a fallacy of misused fallacy calling.
 
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TerranceL

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There should be a fallacy of misused fallacy calling.
Years ago I posted on a forum where there was a guy who you could tell which fallacy he'd recently learned about by how often he'd bleat the term. Everything was an appeal to authority or a no true scottsman or poisoning the well or an ad-hominem.
 
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Belk

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Years ago I posted on a forum where there was a guy who you could tell which fallacy he'd recently learned about by how often he'd bleat the term. Everything was an appeal to authority or a no true scottsman or poisoning the well or an ad-hominem.

I've certainly seen plenty of posters around here mislabel fallacies. The idea that people call a simple insult an ad-hominem makes my teeth itch.
 
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TerranceL

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I've certainly seen plenty of posters around here mislabel fallacies. The idea that people call a simple insult an ad-hominem makes my teeth itch.
Yeah, that's pretty bad too. But it's the people who quote a paragraph of text, call attention to the part they think is a fallacy and ignore the rest that annoys me the most. Pointing out a fallacy isn't a rebuttal.
 
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Non sequitur

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You really get the idea that someone's learned what a non sequitur is really thinks bleating "non sequitur" everytime they read an argument they don't like somehow, nevermind if it is one or not, replaces the need for a coherent response.

It doesn't.
TL;DR Non sequitur
 
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SolomonVII

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Well if you leave out what has been said about the statistics, sure.

69.6% of arrests were White and they represent 60.7% of the population
26.9% of arrests were Black and they represent 13.4% of the population

Blacks are arrested 2x's what you would expect, given their percentage of the population.

It's just math.
I would expect that women of all races, who represent maybe 51 % of any population, to represent maybe 2 % of the arrest for sexual assaults. That is just a wild guess, but it is not unreasonable to expect that this would mirror the numbers at least somewhat approximately.

I would expect that the majority of the arrests for violent crimes would be with the smallish minority of the population that is comprised of young males.

There are age considerations, gender considerations, social and economic considerations, and cultural considerations that educate our expectations that go far beyond any expectation that criminal activity and the related targeted arrests is going to be absolutely proportionate for every and all demographic categories of any given population.
 
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Non sequitur

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I would expect that women of all races, who represent maybe 51 % of any population, to represent maybe 2 % of the arrest for sexual assaults. That is just a wild guess, but it is not unreasonable to expect that this would mirror the numbers at least somewhat approximately.

I would expect that the majority of the arrests for violent crimes would be with the smallish minority of the population that is comprised of young males.

There are age considerations, gender considerations, social and economic considerations, and cultural considerations that educate our expectations that go far beyond any expectation that criminal activity and the related targeted arrests is going to be absolutely proportionate for every and all demographic categories of any given population.
Since white vs black criminal activity includes all those categories (age, gender, etc.), you'd still expect to see a close population to population-represented ratio,

Hispanics make up 17.8% of the population and account for 18.4% of arrests.
American Indians and Alaska Natives make up 2.07% of the population and account for 2.03% of arrests.
Asians make up 5.6% of the population and account for 1.2% of arrests.
 
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Belk

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It's called the fallacy fallacy. (I am not making this up)

I believe the fallacy fallacy simply states that a point is not untrue simply because it contains a fallacy. I think there should be a fallacy for calling something a fallacy when it is not.
 
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Belk

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Yeah, that's pretty bad too. But it's the people who quote a paragraph of text, call attention to the part they think is a fallacy and ignore the rest that annoys me the most. Pointing out a fallacy isn't a rebuttal.

It can be if the entire point is fallacious but I agree. Simply pointing out a fallacy does not invalidate all points.
 
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SolomonVII

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Since white vs black criminal activity includes all those categories (age, gender, etc.), you'd still expect to see a close population to population-represented ratio,

Hispanics make up 17.8% of the population and account for 18.4% of arrests.
American Indians and Alaska Natives make up 2.07% of the population and account for 2.03% of arrests.
Asians make up 5.6% of the population and account for 1.2% of arrests.
In a perfect world what you would want to see is that arrest rates for any demographic parallel the crime rates for that demographic.
That is the specific criteria that should color our expectations.
 
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Ana the Ist

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In a perfect world what you would want to see is that arrest rates for any demographic parallel the crime rates for that demographic.

In a perfect world, there's no crime.

That is the specific criteria that should color our expectations.

That's not a criteria, nor should it color anyone's expectations.

I don't see why anyone expects anything to perfectly mirror demographics. I took college level sociology classes...and I'm fairly certain that none ever said "this should be the case".

I should say that this is a fairly reasonable assumption...but it still doesn't factor in false accusations of crime, or the rate of innocent people arrested.
 
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Non sequitur

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In a perfect world what you would want to see is that arrest rates for any demographic parallel the crime rates for that demographic.
That is the specific criteria that should color our expectations.
You'd want to see no crime.

But in your perfect world you'd want to see arrests and/or crime rates parallel for each demographic, right?
 
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SolomonVII

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You'd want to see no crime.

But in your perfect world you'd want to see arrests and/or crime rates parallel for each demographic, right?
Well, for sure atheists have more faith than I in being able to turn this world of ours into the Perfection that is reserved for the Heaven of the next world, in the Christian worldview. It takes a lot more faith to believe in some version of Marx's workers paradise and such a perfection in this world.

My sights of perfection are set a little lower in having police arresting the people that are committing the crimes, regardless of demographic group and proportionality.

There is no need to tell you something that you already know though, even if this is something that partisanship keeps so many from acknowledging.

I think we got clarity now. That is the most that can be expected.
 
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Belk

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Well, for sure atheists have more faith than I in being able to turn this world of ours into the Perfection that is reserved for the Heaven of the next world, in the Christian worldview. It takes a lot more faith to believe in some version of Marx's workers paradise and such a perfection in this world.

My sights of perfection are set a little lower in having police arresting the people that are committing the crimes, regardless of demographic group and proportionality.

There is no need to tell you something that you already know though, even if this is something that partisanship keeps so many from acknowledging.

I think we got clarity now. That is the most that can be expected.


I do? I don't recall expressing that to you.
 
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revanneosl

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Ethnic minority persons in the US get arrested, tried, and convicted at a rate in excess of their proportional representation in the general population. It seems to me as if a person can draw one of two conclusions from this fact. Either:
  1. Ethnic minority persons are more criminal than white persons, or
  2. Institutional, systemic racism exists.
If there is a third option, I would love to know what it is.
 
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Non sequitur

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Well, for sure atheists have more faith than I in being able to turn this world of ours into the Perfection that is reserved for the Heaven of the next world, in the Christian worldview. It takes a lot more faith to believe in some version of Marx's workers paradise and such a perfection in this world.

I don't share that faith.

My sights of perfection are set a little lower in having police arresting the people that are committing the crimes, regardless of demographic group and proportionality.

There is no need to tell you something that you already know though, even if this is something that partisanship keeps so many from acknowledging.

I think we got clarity now. That is the most that can be expected.
Our sights align.

Just pointing out that the demographic groups and proportionality appears to be off. Some seem to think that is poor statistical analysis.
 
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SolomonVII

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I don't share that faith.


Our sights align.

Just pointing out that the demographic groups and proportionality appears to be off. Some seem to think that is poor statistical analysis.
If demographics and proportionality are off, then what is needed is to do an analysis. Our expectations ought to conform to the proportionality of crime rates for any particular demographic group, rather than to proportionality of the population of any group to the total population. If for example it is found that 50% of murder is being committed by a demographic group that comprises 2% of the total population, higher arrest rates for that group would not be unfair, and lower arrest rates would be an indication of ineffective and apathetic police work.
 
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dgiharris

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Well if you leave out what has been said about the statistics, sure.

69.6% of arrests were White and they represent 60.7% of the population
26.9% of arrests were Black and they represent 13.4% of the population

Blacks are arrested 2x's what you would expect, given their percentage of the population.

It's just math.

There is more to the math than that.

Take two groups of people: B and W.
  • For the sake of mathematical argument, lets say that the members of Group B and W commit the exact same amount of crimes.
Members of Group B are suspected of being law breakers. Thus, police question and investigate members from Group B at 3 times the rate of Group W.

Given the above, members from Group B will easily have 3 x the arrest rate as members from Group W.

You then have a feedback loop. Police feel that Group B commits more crimes, they investigate group B more, they arrest group B more, then they look at those arrests and think "yeah, Group B commits more crimes" and thus they feel compelled to investigate Group B more...

This does NOT even factor in other possible causes, the above is just straight math. You add in other factors like human bias, stereotyping, racism, etc and it only gets worse.

So the problem is more than just a quick glance at some stats, you have to think of the factors behind the stats.
 
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