Pastor Believes in evolution!

[Sword-In-Hand]

I don't think we should limit God to being just a spirit anymore than we should limit Him to being solely a physical being.

When I wrote that God was a spirit, I felt weird, because obviously He is so much more than just a spirit. Honestly I cannot describe what He is. If I could, that would put me on some higher level similar to Him and that's just not possible with man. God said "I am that I am". God just is, and that's about the only way I can describe Him.

I like what Seebs said on the subject. It says we are created in God's image, but what is His image? I don't think it's two arms, two legs, and a head. I think His image supercedes every part of our rational mind. We have to remember that Jesus said at no time has anyone seen God, but the Son has declared Him.

 

[MbiaJc]

The Bible doesn't say that evolution is not a fact. I know several Christians who believe in creation, evolution, and the Bible. Could God not have created using evolution?

So before you go berating your pastor and others I suggest you do the research. Form an opinion for yourself.

Just my thoughts.

The Bible doesn't say evolution is a fact either. What it does say is God made Adam out of the dust of the ground and then breathe life into him. God made man in a evening and morning which was the sixth day. A evening and morning is not a 1000 yr, it is one day, twenty four hours.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Because some Christians beleve in creation, evelution, does not make it so. It is what God says that makes it so. Anyone teaching something other than what God word says is not teaching the truth.

 

[seebs]

God is not a liar, but God is a poet.

There are serious challenges to overcome in bringing a flat literal interpretation to the text. They turn out not to matter much theologically... But consider the question of when exactly Adam and Eve died. Did they die in the day that they ate the fruit?

 

[TwinCrier]

...I don't think it's two arms, two legs, and a head. ...

Well, I think He does. We'll know someday.

 

[Ant21]

My pastor just told me that he believes that evolution is a solid scientific fact and that Christians must believe it, too, or we won't be able to connect with the Lost.

I tried to reason with him, but he was not reasonable about it and even called me a liar when I said a lot of scientists don't believe in darwinian evolution.

What should my response be?

Pull out your Bible and start reading. "In the begining, God....."

 

[FaithWeaver]

My pastor just told me that he believes that evolution is a solid scientific fact and that Christians must believe it, too, or we won't be able to connect with the Lost.

I tried to reason with him, but he was not reasonable about it and even called me a liar when I said a lot of scientists don't believe in darwinian evolution.

What should my response be?

WHAT!!! I would tell my pastor that I am created from the image of God or
Christ, not a monkey. So is everyone else. Sorry, but my God is not a monkey. If we evolved from monkeys, and if God is a monkey, then that would mean that we have evolved greater than God which will never and can never happen. No one is greater than God. And the idea that the world evolved from a Big Bang that happened in the sky was just as likely to happen as me throwing weat, lettuce seeds, and a cow in the air and those things coming together to form a hamburger. The human mind alone is so complex that there is no way that it could just happen by chance. Darwin himself said that his Theory was wrong. Also, we can reach the lost and be a witness without changing our beliefs to a fictional and sacreligious theory instead of the Word of God. If your pastor believes in the Holy Bible, then he has to believe in the entire Bible, Gensis to Revelations. That's my two cents worth for today.

 

[Gold Dragon]

WHAT!!! I would tell my pastor that I am created from the image of God or
Christ, not a monkey. So is everyone else. Sorry, but my God is not a monkey. If we evolved from monkeys, and if God is a monkey, then that would mean that we have evolved greater than God which will never and can never happen. No one is greater than God.

Agreed. We are created in God's image, not a monkey's. God isn't a monkey. We didn't evolve from monkeys. No one is greater than God.

And the idea that the world evolved from a Big Bang that happened in the sky was just as likely to happen as me throwing weat, lettuce seeds, and a cow in the air and those things coming together to form a hamburger.

Just an fyi that the astronomical Big Bang theory has nothing to do with the biological evolutionary theory and I would say it is one of the best scientific theories to support the idea that God created the universe "ex nihilo" (out of nothing).

The human mind alone is so complex that there is no way that it could just happen by chance.

Agreed.

Darwin himself said that his Theory was wrong.

Darwin may have revised parts of his theory, since that is what normally happens to scientific theories in their infancy as new evidence arrives to challenge or support it.

Also, we can reach the lost and be a witness without changing our beliefs to a fictional and sacreligious theory instead of the Word of God.

I agree. We should not change our beliefs to ficticious and sacreligious theories that contradict with God's scriptures.

If your pastor believes in the Holy Bible, then he has to believe in the entire Bible, Gensis to Revelations.

Agreed. Nothing in lambslove's post indicates that he doesn't.

 

[Sinai]

My pastor just told me that he believes that evolution is a solid scientific fact and that Christians must believe it, too, or we won't be able to connect with the Lost.

I tried to reason with him, but he was not reasonable about it and even called me a liar when I said a lot of scientists don't believe in darwinian evolution.

What should my response be?

Your pastor's personal belief either for or against evolution is just that: his personal belief. The Bible does not take a dogmatic position regarding evolution [God could have used evolution as part of the creation process if He chose to do so], and it is not a salvation issue.

What I find more alarming is your pastor's (a) calling you a liar, and (b) saying that Christians must believe in evolution. I suggest you and your pastor remember the words of Dr. Herschel H. Hobbs, one of the most respected Baptist theologians of the past century:

"But what should be their attitude where such differences do exist? So long as these differences do not deny the authority of the Scriptures or the lordship of Jesus Christ, they should be resolved in Christian love. Each person should speak the truth as he or she sees it--in love. And each person should grant that right to the other.

"For instance, Genesis 1 tells of God's creative work. It relates that this took place in six days. One Baptist sees this as six twenty-four hour days. Another sees it as involving time periods of undetermined lengths. Should one try to force his or her belief on the other? Or should they have a divided fellowship because of honest differences of opinion? Both agree that "in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" (Gen 1:1). But should either person presume to know how God did it?

"The fact is that the Bible does not say dogmatically how long the creative period lasted. The Hebrew word for "day" (yom), like the English word, may mean any number of things: twenty-four hours, a generation, an era, or an indefinite period of time. Since the Holy Spirit inspired the writing of Genesis 1, it must be concluded that He did not spell out this detail. Had He said "a twenty-four-hour day" or "an indefinite period of time," that would settle it. But since He did not do so, the time element is not a vital point in faith.

"So long as two Baptists agree at this point, there should be no grounds for dispute between them. Each should solve the apparent problem--by adhering to the principle of competency of the soul in religion. If there is any judging to be done, it is God's responsibility, not people's."

 

[Gold Dragon]

Hi lambslove. Just a clarification about what your pastor said to you.

Did he use the word "must" in relation to a Christian's belief of evolution?

Did he use the word "liar" in relation to your comment about scientists not believing in Darwinian evolution.

Those two words seem to be causing some concern for folks and I would agree that it is problematic if he actually used those words.

 

[ZiSunka]

Hi lambslove. Just a clarification about what your pastor said to you.

Did he use the word "must" in relation to a Christian's belief of evolution?

Did he use the word "liar" in relation to your comment about scientists not believing in Darwinian evolution.

Those two words seem to be causing some concern for folks and I would agree that it is problematic if he actually used those words.

Yes, he used the word "must." He left no room for dissention. He said that evolution is a proven scientific fact and that Christians must believe in what has been proven. He said that 99% of the people we deal with on a day-to-day basis believe in Darwinian evolution and that Christians in the 21st century must accept evolution as fact, although we may believe in theistic evolution, in which God eliminates chance variations that don't work out.

He did not use the word "liar." I told him about a Gallup poll done in 2002 or 2003 which said many scientists other than evolutionary scientists admit that evolution doesn't answer all the questions about how we got here and that darwinian evolution is not their personal belief for the origin of life on earth. He said that I was making that up and that I should bring that poll in to show the whole class because he was absolutely certain that a tiny minority (about 1 or 2 percent, he said) of scientists believe in anything other than darwinian evolution and that as it is a proven fact we have no choice as intelligent people to accept it as fact, too. When I said I would recommend that he take another look at the evidential fossil record because it doesn't show one species evolving into another in an unbroken chain to present times, he yelled at me and said that I was dead wrong that it shows exactly that. He made a very mad expression on his face and everyone else in the room just sort of looked at their shoes. When the class was over, I chatted with everyone a moment, then said my goodbyes and left as usual, but nobody else left when I did. Everyone stayed in the church and watched out the window while I got in my car, then they all sat down again and kind of leaned close together, watching as I drove away. I made me very uncomfortable.

There you have it.

Unfortunately, he made it clear that if I was going to hold to an intelligent design theory of the origin of life, that I would not be very welcome back in Bible study class next week. So I guess I'm looking for a new Bible study.

 

[Athanasian Creed]

But you still believe that being created in God's image has something to do with being bipeds and our physical human bodies? If not, then evolution does not preclude being created in God's image since evolution is merely about our physical human bodies.

Since God is a Spirit, we can't be created in His physcial image can we ?! However, we can reason just as God can, we can express emotion - express and feel love, etc. just like God can. We are also spirit just as He is (as well as body and soul) We are a trichotomy in our person (body, soul and spirit) just as the Being of God is (Father, Word and Holy Spirit).

Man (and woman) are a SPECIAL creation of God - all other created things were spoken into existence by God's Word. Man was physically created by God out of the dust of the earth -

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, ...

The woman as well was physically created by God's hand -

Genesis 2:21-22 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

The difference between man and animals (besides having attributes mentioned above given us by God shared also by Him) -

Genesis 2:7 ... , and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

And it is because of man's transgression against God that sin brought forth death. If man had not ate of the tree of knowlege of good and evil they would have been able to partake of the tree of life and live forever.


Ray

 

[Athanasian Creed]

My pastor just told me that he believes that evolution is a solid scientific fact and that Christians must believe it, too, or we won't be able to connect with the Lost.

I tried to reason with him, but he was not reasonable about it and even called me a liar when I said a lot of scientists don't believe in darwinian evolution.

What should my response be?

Uuuggghhh - when i hear such a thing as "connecting with the lost" or "relating to the lost" i automatically think COMPROMISE !!!

Perhaps your pastor should open the Bible and read that the things of God are "foolishness" to those that are perishing (1 Cor 1:18, 2:14). Or that to those who are perishing we are "the savour of death unto death". That "the natural (sinful, unregenerated; those who only rely on human or worldly wisdom) man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Cor 2:14)

I would, as others have said, RUN not walk out of that church. Let the blind lead the blind, walk you in the light and truth of God's Word - "In the beginning, GOD CREATED..." !!!


Ray


P.S. Kudos to you sister for challenging your pastor in his error - kudos for being a Berean !!

Acts 17:11 (The Bereans) were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

 

[Gold Dragon]

I told him about a Gallup poll done in 2002 or 2003 which said many scientists other than evolutionary scientists admit that evolution doesn't answer all the questions about how we got here and that darwinian evolution is not their personal belief for the origin of life on earth

Interesting that they exclude "evolutionary scientists" in that poll. Do you have links to the data?

I would definitely agree with the statement that evolution doesn't answer all the questions about how we got here. There are many questions that are beyond the scope of evolutionary theory.

Unfortunately, he made it clear that if I was going to hold to an intelligent design theory of the origin of life, that I would not be very welcome back in Bible study class next week. So I guess I'm looking for a new Bible study.

It is sad that he can't handle having different opinions in his class.

 

[TwinCrier]

Since God is a Spirit, we can't be created in His physcial image can we ?!

And what does a spirit look like? It seems like there is a presumption that a spirit must be a white whisp of smoke. If we are made of God's own hands, why is it so far fetched to believe He indeed has hands?

 

[MbiaJc]

Uuuggghhh - when i hear such a thing as "connecting with the lost" or "relating to the lost" i automatically think COMPROMISE !!!

Perhaps your pastor should open the Bible and read that the things of God are "foolishness" to those that are perishing (1 Cor 1:18, 2:14). Or that to those who are perishing we are "the savour of death unto death". That "the natural (sinful, unregenerated; those who only rely on human or worldly wisdom) man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Cor 2:14)

I would, as others have said, RUN not walk out of that church. Let the blind lead the blind, walk you in the light and truth of God's Word - "In the beginning, GOD CREATED..." !!!


Ray


P.S. Kudos to you sister for challenging your pastor in his error - kudos for being a Berean !!

Acts 17:11 (The Bereans) were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Excelent post

I would just disagree with she should run away from her Church.

That is more her church than that so called pastor. Her father was and elder in that Church. Do not let the devil run you out of your own Church, run him out is my two cents worth.

These modern day professional one man pastoral authorities we have to day has got to be delt with. They are unbibical, unholy and ungodly. Jesus kicked the money changers out of the temple. These professionals these days are the modern day money changers. Kick them out they are not called, or anointed of God.

 

[ZiSunka]

Interesting that they exclude "evolutionary scientists" in that poll. Do you have links to the data?

Unfortunately, I don't. It's one of those things you read and don't bookmark or anything, and to read past articles on nytimes.com, you have to pay a monthly fee. I don't have that kind of money to spend on unessentials these days. Of course they would exclude evolution scientists, they would definitely skew the data, since their whole careers are based on their belief in darwinian evolution. It would be like asking born-again Chrisitans if Jesus really exists!!

I would definitely agree with the statement that evolution doesn't answer all the questions about how we got here. There are many questions that are beyond the scope of evolutionary theory.

Evolution just leads to more questions and never gives any solid definitive answers. All the statements evolutionists give about anything begin with the words, "We believe..." as in "We believe this animal died out 100 million years ago, was cold-blooded and had scaly skin." They are forever speculating on what things might have been like, but even among themselves, they often disagree on important points. Evolution is a belief-system and not a true science.

It is sad that he can't handle having different opinions in his class.

He's evidently not the kind of guy that can tolerate someone disagreeing with him. He just started seminary last fall (he was an insurance salesman before he became pastor three years ago without any training or Bible school), and like a lot of seminary students, they get this attitude that they know everything and we poor slucks in the pews are ignorant and spiritually naked until they clothe us with their superior knowledge. He's constantly condescending, I just didn't really realize it until recently.

 

[Gold Dragon]

All the statements evolutionists give about anything begin with the words, "We believe..." as in "We believe this animal died out 100 million years ago, was cold-blooded and had scaly skin." They are forever speculating on what things might have been like, but even among themselves, they often disagree on important points.

Any scientist that doesn't preface conclusion statements with "We believe" whether it is cancer research, evolution or whatever is being dishonest. There is no such thing as absolute mathematical proof in sciences.

Scientific laws are scientific theories that can be simply stated. Many scientific laws have exceptions like Newton's law of gravity which falls apart when dealing with the relativistic scale, which gave rise to Einstien's more encompasing theory of gravity that can't be simply stated in a formula like Netwon's "law".

Evolution is a belief-system and not a true science.

Yes and no. Evolution is true science and from a scientific perspective is one of the more trustworthy theories in the field, having endured 150 years of scientific scrutiny. It is also a belief to the philosophical extent that all scientific endeavour is belief that what we observe now in the universe can inductively apply to other times and places in the universe because of natural "laws" which govern the universe. The further we delve into the universe, the more we push the boundaries of that assumption into realms where this doesn't apply. The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle being one of the primary examples.

 

[Sword-In-Hand]

...We'll know someday.

....and that's the best part!

 

[MbiaJc]

All the statements evolutionists give about anything begin with the words, "We believe..." as in "We believe this animal died out 100 million years ago, was cold-blooded and had scaly skin." They are forever speculating on what things might have been like, but even among themselves, they often disagree on important points.

A theory is what one comes up with, instead of thaking God word, when one don't know what the truth of the matter is without taking God's word.

 

[Sinai]

Evolution just leads to more questions and never gives any solid definitive answers. All the statements evolutionists give about anything begin with the words, "We believe..." as in "We believe this animal died out 100 million years ago, was cold-blooded and had scaly skin." They are forever speculating on what things might have been like, but even among themselves, they often disagree on important points. Evolution is a belief-system and not a true science.

Scientific theory is largely promulgated not just to set out an explanation based upon observations, but also with the intent of being questioned and tested. This is one of the reasons so much emphasis is placed upon peer review: other scientists are expected to test the theory and the supporting data to see if it holds up under further scrutiny or if it needs to be modified.