Pastor’s horse ride supports creationism in schools

Pete Harcoff

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JEREMY O'ROURKE said:
I also have found some other great websites that deal with this. http://www.trueorigin.org http://www.genisisfiles.com and http://sixdaycreation.com and http://creationist.org and http://originresource.org I could go on and on.

As others have said, this is not a competition to see who has the most web sites. It's not even a competition who has the most literature (in which modern geology, biology, etc, would win hands down). Rather, it's a case of looking at the specific arguments, which many of us have done time and time again in the science forum.

If you're so sure of creationism, head to the science forum. Troodon has posted a nice list of threads with various points falsifying creationism. If you're up to the task, try showing us why those things don't falsify creationism.
 
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Gary B

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Mechanical Bliss said:
Your empty rhetoric is meaningless, especially when you clearly don't have the knowledge to make honest conclusions about the topic.

He had a right to his opinion and belief. Why do you go around slamming people? I sense you are full of pride and if anybody has a belief and doesn't share your 'secular' faith, you belittle them.

Saying he 'clearly don't have the knowledge' and a few more things. If somebody goes against what you call your knowledge, how does that give you a right to say they don't have knowledge to make an honest conclusion?
 
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TruthTraveler

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troodon

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TruthTraveler said:
What do you mean?

It's perfectly legal to teach Creation in public schools.
I even think Creation is taught in about 20+ States
We are talking about "Creationism" not "Creation".

You can't teach "Creationism" in schools as a valid theory because, in case you haven't been keeping up on current events, it has been falsified.

Creation, I suppose you could teach if you were discussing possible origins for the universe, but I've never heard of that being discussed in any high school (maybe some really advanced college physics class or something; I don't know).

Here's a better book
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0801867630/qid=1066027806/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-5210071-7647861?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
 
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Pete Harcoff

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Gary B said:
He had a right to his opinion and belief. Why do you go around slamming people? I sense you are full of pride and if anybody has a belief and doesn't share your 'secular' faith, you belittle them.

Saying he 'clearly don't have the knowledge' and a few more things. If somebody goes against what you call your knowledge, how does that give you a right to say they don't have knowledge to make an honest conclusion?

Because part of the problem with the idea of creationism being taught in schools is too many people make a decision based on emotionalism instead of fact. Even your reply to him is an appeal to emotionalism.

Ther reality is most people are too ignorant of the subjects surrounding the whole creationism/evolution debate to make a proper descision on it. Those who make careers out studying life, the world and universe have reached certain conclusions about it. And those conclusions are reached based on the available evidence. And that is why those things are taught in schools.

But if you don't believe me, swing by the science forum some time and we can discuss it.
 
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Bushido216

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TruthTraveler, your arguements are getting sillier by the day.

Teaching Creation "science" isn't legal. If it is, it shouldn't be. Creation shouldn't even be in a science course, since it defies the ability of science to prove or disprove.

And Naziism and Evolution aren't linked at all. Infact, Hitler was Christian.
 
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Gary B

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Pete Harcoff said:
For Gary B:

See what I mean about appeals to emotionalism? Do you really think that this type of argument should decide what your children are taught in science class?

Maybe they should stop teaching Evolution in classrooms since it's just a theory. I could probably find quite a few sites that question evolution, but I won't because you'll just say that it's emotionalism or another fancy word. All comes down to your belief system. If you want to believe in evolution, I say fine but why subject my kids to that teaching without a choice?
 
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troodon

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TruthTraveler said:
Silly rabit Evoulution is for Nazi's.
ostrich2.gif


Always a good tactic when faced with evidence falsifying your stance; comparel your opponent to a Nazi.

You live in Canada so why are you getting in American Affairs?
Creationism threatens the educations of the children of the world's strongest economic power; that makes it the world's problem.

Gary B said:
Maybe they should stop teaching Evolution in classrooms since it's just a theory.
Just like the theory of gravity or cell theory or atomic theory?

I could probably find quite a few sites that question evolution, but I won't because you'll just say that it's emotionalism or another fancy word.
Feel free to go to the Science, Creation, and Evolution forum and post every single falsification of evolution that you can muster; they will not stand up to scrutiny. This is not the case, however, with the YEC falsifications I posted earlier in this thread; they hold up against close scrutiny.

All comes down to your belief system. If you want to believe in evolution, I say fine but why subject my kids to that teaching without a choice?
You can teach your kids whatever you want. If you want your kids to believe that matter is made up of some infinitly divisible, homogenous mess then you can teach them that; but in school they will be taught the truth that matter is made up of atoms which are in turn made up of sub-atomic particles. Same goes with evolution. You can ignore all the evidence you want and teach your kids that evolution is false but that will not stop the educational system from teaching the truth that the earth is old and that evolution is the source for today's diverse forms of life.
 
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Mechanical Bliss

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Gary B said:
He had a right to his opinion and belief. Why do you go around slamming people? I sense you are full of pride and if anybody has a belief and doesn't share your 'secular' faith, you belittle them.

Saying he 'clearly don't have the knowledge' and a few more things. If somebody goes against what you call your knowledge, how does that give you a right to say they don't have knowledge to make an honest conclusion?
It gives me every right to say they don't have the knowledge to make an honest conclusion by realizing that the majority of Americans and the majority of people here don't have the educational background to back up their claims. If he would be willing to give us his educational background, I might reconsider, however his comments don't really give him a good reputation.

The sciences are based upon evidence. Creationism is not. Creationism is nothing but an emotional attatchment to a particular interpretation of a religious text. It takes a conclusion that they refuse to abandon even if it means lying about evidence and/or ignoring it just so they can maintain that conclusion. Creationism is all about intellectual dishonesty.
 
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Pete Harcoff

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Gary B said:
Maybe they should stop teaching Evolution in classrooms since it's just a theory.

And maybe they should stop teaching gravity or relativity for the same reasons.

A theory in science, is far different from a layman's theory. A theory in science is an explanation of a natural phenomenon based on physical observations.

For example, Newton's theory of gravity explained the orbits of the planets and even went to far as to predict the existence Neptune based on pertebations in the orbit of Uranus. Likewise, evolution explains things like antibiotic resistance in bacteria, or shared genetic similarities among various species.

Of course, scientific theories are subject to change. Newton's gravitational theory was superceded by Einstein's when he came up with relativity. And even Einstein's work is incomplete as physicists still debate over the very nature of gravity.

Yet, I don't see anyone protesting gravity being taught in schools because it is "just a theory".

I could probably find quite a few sites that question evolution, but I won't because you'll just say that it's emotionalism or another fancy word.

And I've probably already seen them. The reason there is such a big fight against evolution is because people are taught it is incompatible with Christianity (specifically those who follow certain Biblical interpretations). Unforunately, many of the people who argue against evolution turn it into a political debate. They feed misinformation to the general populace in an effort to have evolution ousted from the school system, or some times, creationism inserted. But those people are not doing it for reasons of science; they are doing it because they feel that is what their religion requires.

The reality is that creationism was already a prevailing view in science over 200 years ago. Scientists at the time (most of them Christian) who were exploring the Earth were actually looking for evidence to confirm certain Biblical ideas (like the Genesis account as literal history). But they didn't find what they were looking for. In fact, they ended up realizing the evidence in the Earth did not conform to a literal Genesis (namely all the Earth's organisms were not created at roughly the same time or that the global flood of Noah took place).

All comes down to your belief system. If you want to believe in evolution, I say fine but why subject my kids to that teaching without a choice?

Because it's not a belief system the way you describe. It is a scientific theory based on the research, observation and data of countless individuals over the last 150 years. If you want to argue that it is a "belief system", I could argue the same about any other branch of science. No one, for example has ever seen a protons or electrons, yet I don't see people protesting atomic theory being taught in schools.
 
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Mechanical Bliss

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Gary B said:
Maybe they should stop teaching Evolution in classrooms since it's just a theory.
Then what would actually be left to teach if we removed scientific theories from classrooms? You too have revealed your own ignorance of the methodology behind science, and if you had read the thread before responding, you'd see that this claim has already been made and is ill-founded.

Maybe they should stop teaching atomic theory in classrooms since it's "just a theory." Why or why not? No because it doesn't interfere with your emotional attatchment to creationism but evolution does? The same methodology that gives us atomic theory gives us the theory of evolution.

A "scientific theory" is different from the colloquial definition of what a "theory" is. A scientific theory is more than just mere guesswork. A scientific theory is a logically deduced, potentially falsifiable explanation that takes into account all available facts. Thus, scientific theories are the pinnacle of science. That evolution happens is a fact, as descent with modification occurs. That fact combined with the facts observed in the fossil record as well as observations in modern genetics give rise to what is referred to as the theory of evolution which strives to explain how evolution occurs--its mechanisms.

I could probably find quite a few sites that question evolution, but I won't because you'll just say that it's emotionalism or another fancy word.
But would any of them actually be based upon science rather than theology? Extremely unlikely.

All comes down to your belief system.
It does only if you think a certain interpretation of a religious text must be held onto regardless of real world facts. But for the rest of us, it's not a matter of "belief," it's a matter of "acceptance." The theory of evolution is the best explanation for our palentological and genetic observations. You either accept that fact that it is, or you don't. If not, it's likely to be for emotional reasons.

If you want to believe in evolution, I say fine but why subject my kids to that teaching without a choice?
For the same reason children have to learn atomic theory in chemistry class without choice: science must be taught in science class. The theory of evolution is one of the most important parts of the biological sciences, and it should be taught given its mountains of evidence and that it is scientific. If you don't want your children to learn science, then that's your problem, not the problem of science educators.
 
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TruthTraveler said:
What do you mean?

It's perfectly legal to teach Creation in public schools.
I even think Creation is taught in about 20+ States
Is this the generic, argument from incredulity-type creation?

"And the creator-thing might've poofed humans into existence because it could've happened that way."

Seriously, how do you teach just "creation" without referencing a particular religion's dogma?
Please don't insult us.
 
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