Passover For Christians

[Clare73]

Yet you have shown it...

Another assertion without Biblical demonstration. . .and, therefore, without merit.

 

[Torah Keeper]

Nowhere on this entire thread have you given the answer to the question: of what sin were they guilty which caused them to die when there was no law to sin against between Adam and Moses?

Alright. I'm in. Clare, you seem to suggest there was no law between Adam and Moses. So when Eve ate the forbidden fruit, are you saying she didn't sin? Eve disobeyed God's law. When Cain murdered Abel, was Cain guilty? Of course he was. He sinned. God warned Cain to repent, but Cain would not, and he murdered righteous Abel. When God destroyed the world in a flood, of what sins were those people guilty of if there was no law? Sin is transgression of the law, yes, we know this. But you seem to think the law is Moses and nothing else. Every command of God is part of His law. When God told Noah, not to eat blood, it was a law.

You say there was no law to sin against. This is not Biblical, and you seem to misundertand Paul. Without the law there is no knowledge of what sin is. It doesn't mean people don't sin. They still sin even without the law. But they do not realize they are sinning, because they are ignorant of God's laws. That was Paul's point.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Another assertion without Biblical demonstration. . .and, therefore, without merit.

uh huh LOL...I guess you can't read

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Which concepts you were likewise unable to explicate as requested. . .

no the problem was on your end...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Alright. I'm in. Clare, you seem to suggest there was no law between Adam and Moses. So when Eve ate the forbidden fruit, are you saying she didn't sin? Eve disobeyed God's law. When Cain murdered Abel, was Cain guilty? Of course he was. He sinned. God warned Cain to repent, but Cain would not, and he murdered righteous Abel. When God destroyed the world in a flood, of what sins were those people guilty of if there was no law? Sin is transgression of the law, yes, we know this. But you seem to think the law is Moses and nothing else. Every command of God is part of His law. When God told Noah, not to eat blood, it was a law.

You say there was no law to sin against. This is not Biblical, and you seem to misundertand Paul. Without the law there is no knowledge of what sin is. It doesn't mean people don't sin. They still sin even without the law. But they do not realize they are sinning, because they are ignorant of God's laws. That was Paul's point.

Clare has shown very limited understanding of these fundamental concepts. Clare does not understand what Torah is...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Nowhere on this entire thread have you given the answer to the question: of what sin were they guilty which caused them to die when there was no law to sin against between Adam and Moses?

I have. You are asking why 1 + 1 = 11...

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Another strawman. . .

Repeating something over and over does not make it true LOL!!

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Would that have anything to do with not answering my questions?

well if you can't understand the answer then it has everything to do with it LOL!

 

[Filippus]

Clare has shown very limited understanding of these fundamental concepts. Clare does not understand what Torah is...

Please stop making comments like this. Its not helpful.

We all can see the feeds and you have been avoiding her questions.

We are all here to try and learn and support each other.
Shalom

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Please stop making comments like this. Its not helpful.

We all can see the feeds and you have been avoiding her questions.

We are all here to try and learn and support each other.
Shalom

I gave the answer, just not the one Clare wanted...so the question keeps being repeated waiting for a different outcome...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ How confident are you the Jews in biblical times used Astronomical reckonings which you provided above? The history of the Jewish calendar is divided into three periods— (1) the Biblical, the (2) Talmudic, and the (3) post-Talmudic. The biblical calendar rested purely on the observation of the sun and the moon, the second on observation and reckoning, the third entirely on reckoning. The Talmudic period did not start until late in the second century. This means the time of Christ was clearly in the Biblical period of the Jewish calendar and its construction rested purely on the observation of the sun and the moon through visual observation. Hence the Jews used a visual sighting for the waxing crescent of the moon to determine the first day of their calendar month depending on how clear the day was varied from 1-3.5 days. The Astronomical reckonings as we have them today that you provided in your post uses the moon in conjunction not the visual sighting of the crescent. What this means is that only Astronomical new moons that you have presented can be found through computation while in biblical sighting of the crescent new moons could only be done through visual observation of the crescent moon which had a 1-3.5 day variation of sighting times. Just some food for thought as we are not able to calculate what they observed so perhaps there is nothing you have posted here that is set in concrete.

Your response here...

I don't believe in the "sighted new moon" theory. It's nothing but problems for anyone who actually tries it. Weather, mountains, buildings, differences in people's eyesight, etc, all confound the situation and everyone can never agree when the "new moon crescent", as they call it, is first visible. In my opinion the day of new moon begins at sunset after the conjunction. All problems solved and everyone is in agreement. I don't believe that anyone in Biblical times was looking for the new moon to decide when to start Yom Teruah, or the new year, for example. It was all well known years in advance. It is not difficult to know the cycle of the moon. David and Jonathan knew and prepared for the new moon before it happened. A feast was already scheduled. Additionally, a psalm about Yom Teruah mentions blowing the trumpet on the new moon, when the moon is hidden. That's another topic though.

No one had Astronomical reckoning for determining the times of the seasons in the old covenant or in Christs time. The only way according to the scriptures was the sighting of the sun and the new moons which is based on the scriptures for determining the times and the seasons as shown in Genesis 1:14. So the sighting of the new moons in these days was not a theory but a reality (see more info here linked). Of course you are free to believe as you wish.

Take Care.

 

[Filippus]

But it certainly was not a rest day. Additionally, the only way to make the 3 days and 3 nights work, is if Yeshua was crucified on the 14th, on a Thursday. 2 days of rest then followed. Matsa and Shabbat. This is the only way to make it work. So, we are left with a conundrum. Hark gets around this by saying the Last Supper was not a Passover seder. I believe it was. So, Hark, can you prove somehow it was not?

I have just taken 2019 as an example.
Thursday is the preparation day for the Annual Sabbath of the 21st. And therefore satisfies the day of crucifixion. Three days and nights, preparation day before High Sabbath, after the 15th.

 

[Clare73]

Alright. I'm in.

Welcome! Good for you!

Clare, you seem to suggest there was no law between Adam and Moses. So when Eve ate the forbidden fruit, are you saying she didn't sin?

Between Adam and Moses would be after Adam and before Moses.

Eve disobeyed God's law. When Cain murdered Abel, was Cain guilty? Of course he was. He sinned. God warned Cain to repent, but Cain would not, and he murdered righteous Abel. When God destroyed the world in a flood, of what sins were those people guilty of if there was no law? Sin is transgression of the law, yes, we know this. But you seem to think the law is Moses and nothing else. Every command of God is part of His law. When God told Noah, not to eat blood, it was a law.

You say there was no law to sin against. This is not Biblical, and you seem to misundertand Paul. Without the law there is no knowledge of what sin is. It doesn't mean people don't sin. They still sin even without the law. But they do not realize they are sinning, because they are ignorant of God's laws. That was Paul's point.

 

[Clare73]

Please stop making comments like this. Its not helpful.

We all can see the feeds and you have been avoiding her questions.

We are all here to try and learn and support each other.
Shalom

AMEN to that!

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Welcome! Good for you!
Between Adam and Moses would be after Adam and before Moses.

Why don't you answer his questions??????

 

[Clare73]

Why don't you answer his questions??????

Strawman. . .

 

[Torah Keeper]

Your response here...

No one had Astronomical reckoning for determining the times of the seasons in the old covenant or in Christs time. The only way according to the scriptures was the sighting of the sun and the new moons which is based on the scriptures for determining the times and the seasons as shown in Genesis 1:14. So the sighting of the new moons in these days was not a theory but a reality (see more info here linked). Of course you are free to believe as you wish.

Take Care.

I would repeat my post about it but instead I would like to hear your opinion on these:

1 Samuel 20:5
And David said unto Jonathan, Behold, to morrow is the new moon, and I should not fail to sit with the king at meat: but let me go, that I may hide myself in the field unto the third day at even.

1 Samuel 20:18
Then Jonathan said to him, Tomorrow is the new moon: and it will be seen that you are not present, for there will be no one in your seat.

Psalm 81:3 is butchered beyond recognition in English versions so I posted the Hebrew:
תִּקְע֣וּ בַחֹ֣דֶשׁ שֹׁופָ֑ר בַּ֝כֵּ֗סֶה לְיֹ֣ום חַגֵּֽנוּ
And the proper translation:
Blow the horn on the new moon, when it is hidden(keseh), on the day of the feast.

These 3 witnesses from Scripture are evidence that:

• The ancient Israelites knew when the new moon would be in advance. They were not looking for it.
• The Feast of Trumpets occurs when the moon is "hidden"(keseh). This occurs only on an astronomical new moon.

I firmly believe the day of the new moon begins the sunset after conjunction, and not the day of conjunction. The reason is that if the conjunction happened just before sunset, the moon would be in waning crescent phase, and would technically not yet be new. Only after the conjunction does the moon begin it's appearance of growing again as new.

I have seen firsthand how people get in a habit of looking for the new moon, and it always causes problems. There are places where it is cloudy for months in a row, so sighting the moon is impossible. As I mentioned in my previous post, one person with better vision will see the new moon earlier than another. A person on a mountain or airplane will see it sooner than a person in a valley. There is no agreement between everyone. It's impossible.

 

[Der Alte]

* * *
Well, thank you guys for the info. There is a lot to consider here. The only thing that seems to contradict this is the Last Supper. I am convinced it was a Passover seder. According to your reckoning, it was the 15th, a rest day. But it certainly was not a rest day. Additionally, the only way to make the 3 days and 3 nights work, is if Yeshua was crucified on the 14th, on a Thursday. 2 days of rest then followed. Matsa and Shabbat. This is the only way to make it work. So, we are left with a conundrum. Hark gets around this by saying the Last Supper was not a Passover seder. I believe it was. So, Hark, can you prove somehow it was not?
33 AD is the most commonly accepted date for Yeshua's death because it gives a Friday crucifixion as the RCC teaches. But I think Yeshua could have been crucified as late as 41 AD. I haven't checked into it precisely, but there is a verse that suggests Yeshua was at least 40 when He died.

I am absolutely certain that Jesus' last supper was a scriptural Passover Seder but the scriptural exception not the calendar Seder.
Jesus observed the Passover on the day we call Thursday.
All four gospels agree that Jesus was crucified on Friday; Matthew 27:62, Mark 15:42, Luke 23:54, John 19:14, John 19:31, John 19:42. It is translated "preparation" in the NT. The Greek name, then and now, for the day we call Friday was and is "paraskeue" which in Greek means "preparation."
All four gospels agree that Jesus was in the tomb on Saturday which was a weekly and annual Sabbath; c.f. Matthew 28:1, Mark 15:42, Mark 16:1, Luke 23:54, John 19:31
If as it appears the annual Sabbath coincided with the weekly Sabbath, i.e. a high day. The first day of Unleavened bread, which is an annual Sabbath was on the day after "Paraskeue"/"Friday." was also "Passover."
How do we reconcile all this?

Numbers 9:10-11
10 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If any man of you or of your posterity shall be unclean by reason of a dead body, or be in a journey afar off, yet he shall keep the passover unto the LORD.
11 The fourteenth day of the second month at even they shall keep it, and eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.​

Jesus knew He would not be available on Passover so He observed it on the scriptural alternate day.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I would repeat my post about it but instead I would like to hear your opinion on these:

1 Samuel 20:5
And David said unto Jonathan, Behold, to morrow is the new moon, and I should not fail to sit with the king at meat: but let me go, that I may hide myself in the field unto the third day at even.

1 Samuel 20:18
Then Jonathan said to him, Tomorrow is the new moon: and it will be seen that you are not present, for there will be no one in your seat.

Psalm 81:3 is butchered beyond recognition in English versions so I posted the Hebrew:
תִּקְע֣וּ בַחֹ֣דֶשׁ שֹׁופָ֑ר בַּ֝כֵּ֗סֶה לְיֹ֣ום חַגֵּֽנוּ
And the proper translation:
Blow the horn on the new moon, when it is hidden(keseh), on the day of the feast.

These 3 witnesses from Scripture are evidence that:

• The ancient Israelites knew when the new moon would be in advance. They were not looking for it.
• The Feast of Trumpets occurs when the moon is "hidden"(keseh). This occurs only on an astronomical new moon.

I firmly believe the day of the new moon begins the sunset after conjunction, and not the day of conjunction. The reason is that if the conjunction happened just before sunset, the moon would be in waning crescent phase, and would technically not yet be new. Only after the conjunction does the moon begin it's appearance of growing again as new.

I have seen firsthand how people get in a habit of looking for the new moon, and it always causes problems. There are places where it is cloudy for months in a row, so sighting the moon is impossible. As I mentioned in my previous post, one person with better vision will see the new moon earlier than another. A person on a mountain or airplane will see it sooner than a person in a valley. There is no agreement between everyone. It's impossible.

This is quite easy. The new moon Feast timing is different to the sighting of the new moon's crescent that determined the first day of the month. The new moon Festival or feast was after the sighting of the new moon crescent. (see 1 Samuel 20:27). Psalms 81:3 is only stating that the trumpets are blown at the sighting of the new moon. It was done to declare the beginning of the new month once the crescent moon was sighted. You can read more about it from the Jews here linked. The new moon crescent sighting can only been seen in the twilight of evening which according to biblical time was just before the beginning of a new day.

 

[Torah Keeper]

I am absolutely certain that Jesus' last supper was a scriptural Passover Seder but the scriptural exception not the calendar Seder.
Jesus observed the Passover on the day we call Thursday.
All four gospels agree that Jesus was crucified on Friday; Matthew 27:62, Mark 15:42, Luke 23:54, John 19:14, John 19:31, John 19:42. It is translated "preparation" in the NT. The Greek name, then and now, for the day we call Friday was and is "paraskeue" which in Greek means "preparation."
All four gospels agree that Jesus was in the tomb on Saturday which was a weekly and annual Sabbath; c.f. Matthew 28:1, Mark 15:42, Mark 16:1, Luke 23:54, John 19:31
If as it appears the annual Sabbath coincided with the weekly Sabbath, i.e. a high day. The first day of Unleavened bread, which is an annual Sabbath was on the day after "Paraskeue"/"Friday." was also "Passover."
How do we reconcile all this?

Numbers 9:10-11
10 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If any man of you or of your posterity shall be unclean by reason of a dead body, or be in a journey afar off, yet he shall keep the passover unto the LORD.
11 The fourteenth day of the second month at even they shall keep it, and eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs.​

Jesus knew He would not be available on Passover so He observed it on the scriptural alternate day.

Preparation for the weekly Sabbath or preparation for Chag HaMatsa is what is debated. The Friday to Sunday RCC teaching does not give the 3 days and 3 nights.

The phrase "High Sabbath", may actually be referring to the 15th by itself, and not including the weekly Sabbath.

If Yeshua was unable to keep Pesach then He should have kept it on the second month, correct? According to Scripture?

It seems to me that He kept it at the proper time, even if the ruling class did not.