Passover and Unleavened Bread

[gadar perets]

​

LTB ... Rashi's commentary is evidence of his bias that bên hā·‘ar·ba·yim should always be translated as: "in" (bên) "the afternoon" (hā·‘ar·ba·yim) based on his bias that "בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבַּ֖יִם" means from the declining of the sun at 12:00 pm midday to 5:00 pm or more specifically from 3:00 pm to 5:00 pm. This is typical of the influence of Rabbinical Judaism, but not necessarily Messianic Judaism. All of the following scriptures using "בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבַּ֖יִם" are more correctly translated as "the evening" ("evening the . in")

a) When God gave quail to the children of Israel in the wilderness.
Exod 16:12 "I have heard the murmurings of the children
of Israel. Speak to them, saying, At twilight
(between the evenings) you shall eat meat,
and in the morning you shall be filled with
bread. And you shall know that I am the LORD
your God.

b) When the second daily lamb was to be offered.
Exod 29:39 One lamb you shall offer in the
morning, and the other lamb you
shall offer at twilight (between
the evenings).

Exod 29:41 And the other lamb you shall offer at twilight
(between the evenings); and you shall offer with
it the grain offering and the drink offering, as
in the morning, for a sweet aroma, an offering
made by fire to the LORD.

Num 28:4 The one lamb you shall offer in the morning,
the other lamb you shall offer in the evening
(between the evenings).

Num 28:8 The other lamb you shall offer *in the evening
(between the evenings); as the morning grain
and its drink offering, you shall offer it as
an offering made by fire, a sweet aroma to the
LORD. *("at twilight" aka "between the [two] evenings")

c) When Aaron lit the lamps.
Exod 30:8 And when Aaron lights the lamps at twilight
(between the evenings), he shall burn incense
on it, a perpetual incense before the LORD
throughout your generations.

d) When the Passover lamb was killed.
Exod 12:6 Now you shall keep it until the fourteenth
day of the same month. Then the whole assembly
of the congregation of Israel shall kill it
at twilight (between the evenings).

e) When the feast of the LORD's Passover was observed.
Lev 23:4 These are the feasts of the LORD, holy convocations
which you shall proclaim at their appointed times.
5 On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight
(between the evenings) is the LORD's Passover.

Num 9:3 On the fourteenth day of this month, at twilight
(between the evenings), you shall keep it at its
appointed time. According to all its rites and
ceremonies you shall keep it.

Num 9:5 And they kept the Passover on the fourteenth day of
the first month, at twilight (between the evenings),
in the Wilderness of Sinai; according to all that
the LORD commanded Moses, so the children of Israel
did.

Num 9:11 On the fourteenth day of the second month, at
twilight (between the evenings), they may keep it.
They shall eat it with unleavened bread and bitter
herbs.

​

Again the interpretation of "at twilight" or "between the [two] evenings" is a matter of preference. Rashi has his opinion and Abraham ibn Ezra has his opinion. Chabad's interpretation is based on Rashi's commentary (Rabbinical Judaism) of "between the evenings" from the declining of the midday sun to an hour before sunset (12:00 pm to 5:00 pm). Do you really believe that was its ("בֵּ֥י הָעַרְבַּ֖יִ") interpretation going back to Moses, Joshua, David, and Solomon? "Between the [two] evenings" IMO is an example of the redefining of "בֵּ֥י הָעַרְבַּ֖יִ" by Rabbinical Judaism to mean "in the afternoon" thanks to commentaries like that of Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac (Shlomo Yitzhaki), known as Rashi.

​

Agreed! Exception being if you are a loyal adherent member of: www.Chabad.org ​

You are wasting your time by continually showing me translations using "twilight". You need to address the arguments I am making proving the meaning of between the evenings.

The Israelites toiled all night and into the morning stowing away all the gold and silver brought to them by the Egyptians during the dayllght hours of Abib 14, delaying their hastily planned departure. Like most of us when escaping for a getaway adventure; e.g. Wisconsin Dells and Minnesota ... for a couple weeks it takes longer to get everything ready and then 1/2 a day to catch our breath before finally departing.

You say their hasty departure was delayed, but Scripture says it wasn't.

Exo 12:33 And the Egyptians were urgent upon the people, to send them out of the land in haste; for they said: 'We are all dead men.'
Exo 12:34 And the people took their dough before it was leavened, their kneading-troughs being bound up in their clothes upon their shoulders.
Exo 12:39 And they baked unleavened cakes of the dough which they brought forth out of Egypt, for it was not leavened; because they were thrust out of Egypt, and could not tarry, neither had they prepared for themselves any victual.

​

That's what i'm talking about! The Israelites would have made all their matzah on the afternoon of Abib 14, if the Egyptians wouldn't have kept bringing them more gold and silver on Abib 14.

You are assuming it took until the afternoon to spoil the Egyptians. If the Israelite women had time, they would have added leaven to their dough while it was yet dark and let it rise for hours until they left, but they didn't have time to do that. Pharaoh "thrust" them out (Exodus 11:1) at night and they left Egypt that same night. There was no delay.

WHAT? I'm not entitled to a plausible opinion like everyone else? After 3000+ years there's still not a consensus on the meaning of "between the [two] evenings" OR "at twilight".

You are entitled to your opinion, but not when it conflicts with Scripture. There is no consensus because opinions get in the way.

Are you absolutely positive 100% that in what was to become Jerusalem that "twilight" lasted 32 minutes during the time of Moses? If you define "twilight" as lasting 32 minutes then it lasted 32 minutes according to your definition of what ... "civil twilight" or the time from sunset to when the first three stars and a new crescent moon are vislble???

No. I double checked the 32 minutes and found I made a mistake. I gave you the correct times for Jerusalem, but I forgot to add the hour. 32 was just the difference in minutes. Twilight varies depending on the season of the year and the latitude. Using Cairo as the closest latitude to Israel's departure from Egypt, twilight lasts about 89 minutes (6:38pm - 8:07 pm).

 

[AbbaLove]

You are wasting your time by continually showing me translations using "twilight". You need to address the arguments I am making proving the meaning of between the evenings.

These translations that mention the word "twilight" are a proper rendering. What frustrates you is the fact that these scriptures do not support the celebration of Pesach that was introduced by the Pharisaical Sect of Judah after returning from their exile in Babylon.

a) When God gave quail to the children of Israel in the wilderness.
Exodus 16:12 "I have heard the murmurings of the children
of Israel. Speak to them, saying, At twilight
(between the evenings) you shall eat meat,
and in the morning you shall be filled with
bread. And you shall know that I am the LORD
your God.

b) When the second daily lamb was to be offered.
Exodus 29:39 One lamb you shall offer in the
morning, and the other lamb you
shall offer at twilight (between
the evenings).

Exodus 29:41 And the other lamb you shall offer at twilight
(between the evenings); and you shall offer with
it the grain offering and the drink offering, as
in the morning, for a sweet aroma, an offering
made by fire to the LORD.

Numbers 28:4 The one lamb you shall offer in the morning,
the other lamb you shall offer in the evening
(between the evenings).

Numbers 28:8 The other lamb you shall offer in the evening
(between the evenings); as the morning grain
and its drink offering, you shall offer it as
an offering made by fire, a sweet aroma to the
LORD. *("at twilight" aka "between the [two] evenings")

*c) When Aaron lit the lamps.
Exodus 30:8 And when Aaron lights the lamps at twilight
(between the evenings), he shall burn incense
on it, a perpetual incense before the LORD
throughout your generations.

d) When the Passover lamb was killed.
Exodus 12:6 Now you shall keep it until the fourteenth
day of the same month. Then the whole assembly
of the congregation of Israel shall kill it
at twilight (between the evenings).

e) When the feast of the LORD's Passover was observed.
Leviticus 23:4 These are the feasts of the LORD, holy convocations
which you shall proclaim at their appointed times.
23:5 On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight
(between the evenings) is the LORD's Passover.

Numbers 9:3 On the fourteenth day of this month, at twilight
(between the evenings), you shall keep it at its
appointed time. According to all its rites and
ceremonies you shall keep it.

Numbers 9:5 And they kept the Passover on the fourteenth day of
the first month, at twilight (between the evenings),
in the Wilderness of Sinai; according to all that
the LORD commanded Moses, so the children of Israel
did.

Numbers 9:11 On the fourteenth day of the second month, at
twilight (between the evenings), they may keep it.
They shall eat it with unleavened bread and bitter
herbs.

*Would Aaron light lamps in the "afternoon" ?

It's becoming quite apparent you just want to argue that the Celebration of Pesach, as introduced by the Pharisaical Sect of the Jews (after returning from their exile in Babylon) is the same timeline instituted by YHVH and observed by Moses and then Joshua. You want to argue that the word "twilight" no longer applies since the Pharisees changed the timeline of Pesach to the "midday or afternoon" (אחר הצהריים) instead of "at evening or twilight" (בֵּין הָעַרְבַּיִם).

What's becoming evident here is that you don't even want to acknowledge the real possibility that the original Pass~Over Torah timeline of Moses and Joshua as well as the Tanakh timeline of David and Solomon has been replaced with a man-made tradition of "afternoon". That's a difference of around 20-21 hours from the preparations by Yeshua's Disciples beginning toward the end of Abib 13, and continuing into the first few hours of Abib 14 as recorded by Matthew, Mark and Luke.

Maybe it is you that misunderstands Exodus 12:6-12, and likewise also the Gospel accounts by Matthew, Mark and Luke. Accounts that you believe are faulty no matter which translation is used. What is really becoming apparent is the hold by which religious indoctrination can influence a person's beliefs to accept man-made religious traditions instead of those oridances ordained by the LORD.

Matthew 26:17 (CJB)

On the first day for matzah, the talmidim came to Yeshua and asked, “Where do you want us to prepare your Seder?​

Mark 14:12 (NKJV)

Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they killed the Passover lamb, His disciples said to Him, “Where do You want us to go and prepare, that You may eat the Passover?​

Luke 22:7-9 (YLT)

7 And the day of the unleavened food came, in which it was behoving the passover to be sacrificed,
8 and he sent Peter and John, saying, `Having gone on, prepare to us the passover, that we may eat;'
9 and they said to him, `Where wilt thou that we might prepare?'​

I double checked the 32 minutes and found I made a mistake. I gave you the correct times for Jerusalem, but I forgot to add the hour. 32 was just the difference in minutes. Twilight varies depending on the season of the year and the latitude. Using Cairo as the closest latitude to Israel's departure from Egypt, twilight lasts about 89 minutes (6:38pm - 8:07 pm).

That timeline supports the use of the word "twilight" as well as the interpretation by Abraham ibn Ezra (1 hour and 20 minutes). The word "twilight" is valid for the timeline of Moses and Joshua as opposed to the "afternoon" tradition introduced by the Pharisees and perpetuated by Rabbinical Judaism to this day.

FWIW, the so-called "Complete Jewish Bible" (Torah/Tanakh) of Chabad.org doesn't include the Brit Chadashah ... therefore it is not a Complete Jewish Bible having omitted the written accounts of the Feast of Pesach by Matthew, Mark and Luke.

The only way i'm wasting your time is if you're unwilling to admit that the Jewish Pharisees changed the meaning of beyn ha'arbayim as it applied to the first Passover and subsequent Passover celebrations in Jerusalem. The Pharisees changed the original meaning "at evening (twilight)" or around 80 minutes (ibn Ezra) ... TO ... meaning "afternoon" or around 5 hours (as introduced by the Pharisees).

Common sense alone (without the peer pressure of man~made tradition) should tell you that "between the evenings" (beyn ha'arbayim) is NOT 5 hours of the declining afternoon sun from 12:00 pm (6th hour) to 5:00 pm (11th hour). Furthermore "afternoon" in Hebrew is written as: אחר הצהריים and never found in any of the eleven verses listed above as is בֵּין הָעַרְבַּיִם which is more properly rendered as "at evening". The reason you are so opposed to "twilight" is NOT because it isn't a valid representation of בֵּין הָעַרְבַּיִם. Rather you are upset because the correct interpretation exposes what was to become a later man~made tradition of the Pharisees. A tradition that has been perpetuated as fact by Rabbinical Judaism to this day.​

 

[gadar perets]

b) When the second daily lamb was to be offered.
Exodus 29:39 One lamb you shall offer in the
morning, and the other lamb you
shall offer at twilight (between
the evenings).​

​

When does a new day begin, at the end of twilight or at sunset? If sunset, then the "second daily lamb" had to be offered before sunset or else it would become the "first daily lamb". If at the end of twilight, then it would be the second lamb of the day. It is this that has led me to reject twilight and not your assumption that I have been indoctrinated by Rabbinic tradition. The way things were done in Yeshua's day (the Pharisees method) are simply historical facts that support my conclusion. It is Exodus 29:39 and others that have formed my conclusion. If my conclusion is correct, then "twilight" becomes the later tradition that has displaced the original understanding that beyn ha'arbayim refers to a time before sunset.

*Would Aaron light lamps in the "afternoon" ?

The Tabernacle in the wilderness was made out of animal skins which means they would not allow much light, if any, to enter the sanctuary. If Aaron waited until sundown to light the lamps, he would not have had any light to see what he was doing. This would especially be true when the moon was not full. Lighting the lamps before sunset would make more sense. Also, if Aaron had to light the lamps, burn incense and offer the evening sacrifice during twilight, when did he have time to offer the Passover sacrifice?

​

Furthermore "afternoon" in Hebrew is written as: אחר הצהריים and never found in any of the eleven verses listed above as is בֵּין הָעַרְבַּיִם which is more properly rendered as "at evening".

I am unable to find אחר הצהריים in the Bible. What verse is it in? Or is that just a modern Hebrew word?

BTW, there is a specific word for "twilight" in Biblical Hebrew:

H5399
נשׁף
nesheph
BDB Definition:
1) twilight
1a) evening twilight
1b) morning twilight

Why wasn't that word used in the Hebrew textof all your "twilight" translations?

The reason you are so opposed to

"twilight" is NOT because it isn't a valid representation of בֵּין הָעַרְבַּיִם. Rather you are upset because the correct interpretation exposes what was to become a later man~made tradition of the Pharisees. A tradition that has been perpetuated as fact by Rabbinical Judaism to this day.

How about sticking to the Scriptures and not trying to psychoanalyze my motives?

 

[Open Heart]

Rashi didn't translate Exodus 12:6 into English or influence the translators of the Complete Jewish Bible as evident by "at dusk" or for that matter the KJV as evident by "in the evening" (not afternoon) ~

It is interesting how different Sages argue different points of view. This is exactly the way of the Talmud.

 

[Open Heart]

Like they have with Yeshua?

Yeshua is theology, and God himself has blinded their eyes so that they cannot see the truth of the gospel. We understand that.

But in terms of the Law, there is no blindness. It's a good idea to listen to them.

 

[AbbaLove]

It is Exodus 29:39 and others that have formed my conclusion. If my conclusion is correct, then "twilight" becomes the later tradition that has displaced the original understanding that beyn ha'arbayim refers to a time before sunset.

As previously posted the word "twilight" can also refer to the waning of the daylight before sunset (golden hour) as too is the 60 minutes after sunset (blue/gray hour) when a multitude of stars become visible. Sooo, "between the [two] evenings" is a confusing/misunderstood interpretation of beyn ha'arbayim which certainly shouldn't be interpreted as "afternoon" or beginning from the ninth hour (3:00 pm) to the eleventh hour (5:00 pm). When i refer to the "twilight" (golden hour) from say 5:00 pm to 6:00 pm it should be understood that that time is not included in the Pharisees misinterpretation of beyn ha'arbayim.

You've figured that the "sunset on the 15th day of the second month in Jerusalem this year was 7:25 pm" which you believe was the same timeline during Yeshua's crucifixion. If we account for any springing ahead in DST in Jerusalem today it's still possible that it was 6:25 pm at sunset. That still leaves 2 hours and 25 minutes beyond the 11th hour and certainly a "golden hour" of twilight before sunset. What we assume is that the 11th hour in Jerusalem was always 5:00 pm year round. That means the time from the 11th hour (5:00 pm) to sunset in the summer was a duration of approximately 4 hours. Yet, the "Golden Hour" could always be considered the "twilight" before sunset.

Exodus 29:39
KJV - The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even:
NHEB - The one lamb you shall offer in the morning; and the other lamb you shall offer at evening:
ASV - The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even:
ERV - The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even:

YLT - the one lamb thou dost prepare in the morning, and the second lamb thou dost prepare between the evenings;
DBT - The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; and the other lamb thou shalt offer between the two evenings.

NKJV - One lamb you shall offer in the morning, and the other lamb you shall offer at twilight.
NIV - Offer one in the morning and the other at twilight.
ESV - One lamb you shall offer in the morning, and the other lamb you shall offer at twilight.
HCSB - In the morning offer one lamb, and at twilight offer the other lamb.
ISV - You are to offer one lamb in the morning and the other at twilight,
NASB -The one lamb you shall offer in the morning and the other lamb you shall offer at twilight;
AMP - One lamb you shall offer in the morning and the other lamb at twilight;

So, those previous eleven verses (post 42) should correctly interpret "beyn ha'arbayim" to be at twilight before sundown and not the hours of the declining afternoon sun from 12:00 pm to 5:00 pm.

 

[gadar perets]

As previously posted the word "twilight" can also refer to the waning of the daylight before sunset (golden hour) as too is the 60 minutes after sunset (blue/gray hour) when a multitude of stars become visible. Sooo, "between the [two] evenings" is a confusing/misunderstood interpretation of beyn ha'arbayim which certainly shouldn't be interpreted as "afternoon" or beginning from the ninth hour (3:00 pm) to the eleventh hour (5:00 pm). When i refer to the "twilight" (golden hour) from say 5:00 pm to 6:00 pm it should be understood that that time is not included in the Pharisees misinterpretation of beyn ha'arbayim.

You criticize the Pharisees for supposedly adding their unscriptural traditional view of beyn ha'arbayim, yet your primary defense is now "the golden hour" which is found nowhere in Scripture. Please show me where "the golden hour" was used in Moses' day or Yeshua's day. Also, please show me where the Pharisees definition of beyn ha'arbayim ends at 5:00.

You've figured that the

"sunset on the 15th day of the second month in Jerusalem this year was 7:25 pm" which you believe was the same timeline during Yeshua's crucifixion.

I never said that. I used the second month because that is when the account of Exodus 16 occurs.

Yet, the "Golden Hour" could always be considered the "twilight" before sunset.

Prove it historically and Biblically.

So, those previous eleven verses (post 42) should correctly interpret "beyn ha'arbayim" to be at twilight before sundown and not the hours of the declining afternoon sun from 12:00 pm to 5:00 pm.

Your new definition of twilight is unacceptable.

Definition of twilight (Merriam-Webster)

1: the light from the sky between full night and sunrise or between sunset and full night produced by diffusion of sunlight through the atmosphere and its dust; also : a time of twilight​

Dictionary.com

1. the soft, diffused light from the sky when the sun is below the horizon, either from daybreak to sunrise or, more commonly, from sunset to nightfall.
​

Oxford Dictionary

1. mass noun The soft glowing light from the sky when the sun is below the horizon, caused by the reflection of the sun's rays from the atmosphere.​

 

[visionary]

Yeshua is theology, and God himself has blinded their eyes so that they cannot see the truth of the gospel. We understand that.

But in terms of the Law, there is no blindness. It's a good idea to listen to them.

Really....

 

[AbbaLove]

You criticize the Pharisees for supposedly adding their unscriptural traditional view of beyn ha'arbayim, yet your primary defense is now "the golden hour" which is found nowhere in Scripture.

Actually "the golden hour" is my best offense for the meaning of iהָעַרְבַּיִם to counter your "afternoon" defense.

Exodus 29:39

The one lamb you shall offer in the morning; and the other lamb you shall offer at even:
​

Your defense with Exodus 29:39 provides me with additional offense to support the meaning of "beyn ha'arbayim" (בֵּין הָעַרְבַּיִם = at even) as occurring the same day as the sacrifice of the morning lamb. Therefore הָעַרְבַּיִם must mean the time before sunset which i referred to as "the golden hour" from the following illustration. From the 12th hour (6:00 pm) to 7:00 pm is 1 hour.

A representation of morning twilights, golden hour and blue hour. In the evening, it's exactly the same but happening in the west instead of in the east. So "golden hour" would equally apply to the time before sunset as it does before sunrise. DaveW is correct when he says: "twilight" on the 14th of Nisan until sundown. Here too he is referring to the waning daylight before sundown.

Please show me where "the golden hour" was used in Moses' day or Yeshua's day. Also, please show me where the Pharisees definition of beyn ha'arbayim ends at 5:00.

First, it's not out of the possibility that Moses, Joshua, the Israelites might have used an expression having a similar meaning as "golden hour" (hour before sunset; e.g. הָעַרְבַּיִם), but doubtful that Moses, Aaron or Joshua ever referred to "beyn ha'arbayim" as afternoon (נְט֣וֹת) as did the Pharisees.

Second, it's why i refer to the the waning daylight before sunset as the "golden hour". What is becoming apparent thanks to your mention of Exodus 29:39 is that הָעַרְבַּיִם can not refer to a period of diminishing daylight at and after sunset. Thus, the expression "golden Hour" before sunset is a more likely interpretation of the true meaning intent of הָעַרְבַּיִם than is "afternoon" from 12:00 pm to 6:00 pm (or 3:00 pm to 5:00 pm).

Your new definition of twilight is unacceptable.

Wrong! When reading Exodus 12:6-12 and the three Gospel accounts it becomes apparent that they are not faulty translations, but instead are an accurate translation ...

Exodus 12:6-12

6 And it hath become a charge to you, until the fourteenth day of this month, and the whole assembly of the company of Israel have slaughtered it *between the evenings;
7 and they have taken of the blood, and have put on the two side-posts, and on the lintel over the houses in which they eat it.
8 And they have eaten the flesh in this night, roast with fire; with unleavened things and bitters they do eat it;
9 ye do not eat of it raw, or boiled at all in water, but roast with fire, its head with its legs, and with its inwards;
10 and ye do not leave of it till morning, and that which is remaining of it till morning with fire ye do burn.
11 And thus ye do eat it: your loins girded, your sandals on your feet, and your staff in your hand, and ye have eaten it in haste; it is Jehovah's passover,
12 and I have passed over through the land of Egypt during this night, and have smitten every first-born in the land of Egypt, from man even unto beast, and on all the gods of Egypt I do judgments; I [am] Jehovah.
*Abib 13 before sunset, not in the afternoon (נְט֣וֹת) of Abib 14.​

Matthew 26:17 (CJB)

On the first day for matzah, the talmidim came to Yeshua and asked, “Where do you want us to prepare your Seder?​

Mark 14:12 (NKJV)

Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they killed the Passover lamb, His disciples said to Him, “Where do You want us to go and prepare, that You may eat the Passover?​

Luke 22:7-9 (YLT)

7 And the day of the unleavened food came, in which it was behoving the passover to be sacrificed,
8 and he sent Peter and John, saying, `Having gone on, prepare to us the passover, that we may eat;'
9 and they said to him, `Where wilt thou that we might prepare?'​

The Gospel accounts are not faulty translations, but indicate that they observed Pesach as it was originally observed in Exodus 12:6-12. Thanks again for your mention of Exodus 29:39 as proof that the meaning of הָעַרְבַּיִם cannot refer to afternoon (נְט֣וֹת), but rather the waning daylight before sunset (golden hour of about 60 minutes that time of the year beyond the 12th hour (6:00 pm). Thus the meaning of the phrase "between the [two] evenings". Hopes this helps you clarify the meaning of "between the [two] evenings" as about 1 hour and not the 6 hours of afternoon from 12:00 pm to 6:00 pm. That man~made tradition introduced by the Pharisees (afternoon) would not be applicable to either Exodus 29:39 or Exodus 12:6-12 or the three Gospel accounts of Yeshua and His Disciples ... Matthew 26:17, Mark 14:12, Luke 22:7-9. No matter which translation you use they will not support your defense (afternoon); while supporting my offense (golden hour before sunset).

 

[gadar perets]

Your defense with Exodus 29:39 provides me with additional offense to support the meaning of "beyn ha'arbayim" (בֵּין הָעַרְבַּיִם = at even) as occurring the same day as the sacrifice of the morning lamb. Therefore הָעַרְבַּיִם must mean the time before sunset which i referred to as "the golden hour" from the following illustration. From the 12th hour (6:00 pm) to 7:00 pm is 1 hour.

A representation of morning twilights, golden hour and blue hour. In the evening, it's exactly the same but happening in the west instead of in the east. So "golden hour" would equally apply to the time before sunset as it does before sunrise. DaveW is correct when he says: "twilight" on the 14th of Nisan until sundown. Here too he is referring to the waning daylight before sundown.

First, it's not out of the possibility that Moses, Joshua, the Israelites might have used an expression having a similar meaning as "golden hour" (hour before sunset; e.g. הָעַרְבַּיִם), but doubtful that Moses, Aaron or Joshua ever referred to "beyn ha'arbayim" as afternoon (נְט֣וֹת) as did the Pharisees.

Second, it's why i refer to the the waning daylight before sunset as the "golden hour". What is becoming apparent thanks to your mention of Exodus 29:39 is that הָעַרְבַּיִם can not refer to a period of diminishing daylight at and after sunset. Thus, the expression "golden Hour" before sunset is a more likely interpretation of the true meaning intent of הָעַרְבַּיִם than is "afternoon" from 12:00 pm to 6:00 pm (or 3:00 pm to 5:00 pm).

So, based on this last paragraph, you now believe the Passover lambs were killed before sunset beginning Abib 15, whereas you originally were trying to teach us the lambs were slain just after sunset beginning Abib 14. HalleluYah! I consider that a great victory for truth! The Pharisees taught to kill the lambs at around 3:00 in the afternoon and you now believe it was done between 5:00-6:00 in the afternoon. Since you now believe that, you must also believe the Passover was eaten on the night of Abib 15, not Abib 14, and that Israel left Egypt in haste that night of Abib 15. Am I correct in my assessment of your new belief?

Wrong! When reading Exodus 12:6-12 and the three Gospel accounts it becomes apparent that they are not faulty translations, but instead are an accurate translation ...

Exodus 12:6-12

6 And it hath become a charge to you, until the fourteenth day of this month, and the whole assembly of the company of Israel have slaughtered it *between the evenings;
7 and they have taken of the blood, and have put on the two side-posts, and on the lintel over the houses in which they eat it.
8 And they have eaten the flesh in this night, roast with fire; with unleavened things and bitters they do eat it;
9 ye do not eat of it raw, or boiled at all in water, but roast with fire, its head with its legs, and with its inwards;
10 and ye do not leave of it till morning, and that which is remaining of it till morning with fire ye do burn.
11 And thus ye do eat it: your loins girded, your sandals on your feet, and your staff in your hand, and ye have eaten it in haste; it is Jehovah's passover,
12 and I have passed over through the land of Egypt during this night, and have smitten every first-born in the land of Egypt, from man even unto beast, and on all the gods of Egypt I do judgments; I [am] Jehovah.
*Abib 13 before sunset, not in the afternoon (נְט֣וֹת) of Abib 14.​

Oh my! I guess I misunderstood your clear words in the previous section to mean before sunset beginning Abib 15. So now, by saying the lambs were killed on the 13th, you open up a whole new can of worms (errors). YHWH says the Passover is killed on Abib 14 (Exodus 12:6), but you say Abib 13. That means that not only did Yeshua die at the wrong time (3:00 on the afternoon of Abib 14), but he also died on the wrong day!​

Matthew 26:17

(CJB)

On the first day for matzah, the talmidim came to Yeshua and asked, “Where do you want us to prepare your Seder?​

Mark 14:12 (NKJV)

Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they killed the Passover lamb, His disciples said to Him, “Where do You want us to go and prepare, that You may eat the Passover?​

Luke 22:7-9 (YLT)

7 And the day of the unleavened food came, in which it was behoving the passover to be sacrificed,
8 and he sent Peter and John, saying, `Having gone on, prepare to us the passover, that we may eat;'
9 and they said to him, `Where wilt thou that we might prepare?'​

The Gospel accounts are not faulty translations, but indicate that they observed Pesach as it was originally observed in Exodus 12:6-12.

So now, in Mark and Luke, the day they killed the Passover was Abib 13 (according to you) which means they are calling Abib 13 the first day of Unleavened Bread. Its bad enough the faulty translations were calling Abib 14 the first day of Unleavened Bread. Now, by your new faulty understanding, they are two days before the true first day of Unleavened Bread (Abib 15).

Thanks again for your mention of Exodus 29:39 as proof that the meaning of הָעַרְבַּיִם cannot refer to afternoon (נְט֣וֹת), but rather the waning daylight before sunset (golden hour of about 60 minutes that time of the year beyond the 12th hour (6:00 pm). Thus the meaning of the phrase "between the [two] evenings". Hopes this helps you clarify the meaning of "between the [two] evenings" as about 1 hour and not the 6 hours of afternoon from 12:00 pm to 6:00 pm. That man~made tradition introduced by the Pharisees (afternoon) would not be applicable to either Exodus 29:39 or Exodus 12:6-12 or the three Gospel accounts of Yeshua and His Disciples ... Matthew 26:17, Mark 14:12, Luke 22:7-9. No matter which translation you use they will not support your defense (afternoon); while supporting my offense (golden hour before sunset).

In case you are wondering, the definition of "afternoon" is from noon until sunset.

Definition of afternoon (Merriam-Webster)

1. 1 : the part of day between noon and sunset

Therefore, between 5-6:00 is still the afternoon.

You also failed to prove the phrase "Golden Hour" is Biblical or that it existed in Moses' or Yeshua's day (or any time in between).

I hope you will come to realize that the "waning daylight before sunset" refers to the sunset ending Abib 14 and beginning Abib 15.

 

[Open Heart]

Really....

Yes. YEshua is God (Theos) therefore what we believe about him is Theology.

 

[AbbaLove]

So, based on this last paragraph, you now believe the Passover lambs were killed before sunset beginning Abib 15, whereas you originally were trying to teach us the lambs were slain just after sunset beginning Abib 14.

Where in the last paragraph of my previous post do i write that the Passover lambs were killed before sunset on Abib 15? Or was that a typo or disinformation as i've never mentioned Abib 15 as the beginning of Pesach. You need to read again the three accounts by Matthew, Mark and Luke.

Sowing discord does more to discredit your belief that the first evening of "between the two evenings" begins at 12:00 noon than helps to bolster your mistaken belief based on a man-made tradition of the Pharisees . That belief was introduced by the Pharisees when they returned from their exile in Babylon and further perpetuated to this very day by Rabbinical Judaism. It is not consistent with the timeline of Exodus 12:6-12 or the Gospel account by Matthew, Mark and Luke. The so-called Complete Jewish Bible by Chabad.org is NOT complete as it omits the Pesach account by Matthew, Mark and Luke which is a correct translation.

Perhaps, you didn't fully grasp the intent of DaveW's comment in my previous post when he says ("twilight" on the 14th of Nisan [actually Abib 13] until sundown) just before the beginning of Abib 14. Like Moses, Aaron and Joshua the preparation of the lambs by Moses, Aaron, Joshua and the Israelites was underway during the 1st "twilight" before sundown (Abib 13). The 2nd "twilight" is at the beginning of Abib 14. The continued "twilight" beginning at the end of Abib 13 (golden hour) and continuing (blue/gray hour) into the beginning of Abib 14, is a reasonable interpretation of Exodus 12:6-12 as opposed to the first "evening" beginning at 12:00 noon based on a man-made tradition of the Pharisees.

In case you are wondering, the definition of "afternoon" is from noon until sunset.

The problem with this man-made tradition of the Pharisees is that "beyn ha'arbayim" ( בֵּין הָעַרְבַּיִם ) is never defined in the Torah as meaning the time from noon to 6 pm as "afternoon (נְט֣וֹת)". The Hebrew word "נְט֣וֹת" with respect to Pesach or for that matter any of the previously listed eleven verses is not applicable. As you've rightly mentioned previously Exodus 29:39 is proof that the afternoon tradition of the Pharisees is faulty. For example if בֵּין הָעַרְבַּיִם (between the evenings) actually means "afternoon" then the second lamb could be slain any time after 12:00 pm. Hopefully, you are beginning to see the error of the Pharisees ???

OR is it possible that a Messianic can be so influenced by Rabbinical Judaism to the point that they can't accept either Exodus 12:6-12 as worded or the written accounts of Matthew, Mark and Luke.

You also failed to prove the phrase "Golden Hour" is Biblical or that it existed in Moses' or Yeshua's day (or any time in between).

The "golden hour" and "blue/gray hour" represents a better interpretation/meaning of "Between the Evenings" or "Between The [two] Evenings" ( בֵּין הָעַרְבַּיִם ) than does "afternoon" ( נְט֣וֹת ). The westernized meaning of "twilight" is after sundown. However, it would be wise to consider "twilight" with respect to the Hebrew 24 hr day that begins at sundown. Therefore, the Hebrew understanding of "twilight" (see DaveW's "twilight" comment) can equally apply to the hour before sunset as well as the hour after sunset ... BINGO! ... "between the [twilight] evenings" makes more sense than from noon to 6:00 pm. This afternoon tradition was introduced by the Jewish Pharisees after returning from their exile in Babylon.

I hope you will come to realize that the "waning daylight before sunset" refers to the sunset ending Abib 14 and beginning Abib 15.

Should a Messianic accept a man-made tradition of the Pharisees over the words as recorded by Moses (Exodus 12:6-12)? Should a Messianic ignore the written Gospel accounts of Matthew, Mark and Luke as being untrustworthy?

The only way a Messianic would believe the man-made tradition of the Pharisees, as perpetuated by Rabbinical Judaism, is if they believe that tradition is more trustworthy and pleasing to Yeshua than are the inspired writings of Moses and the Gospel accounts by Matthew, Mark and Luke.

 

[visionary]

Yes. YEshua is God (Theos) therefore what we believe about him is Theology.

There is a theory, then there is reality... Those who believe the theory can readily give it up in the face of reality or delusion. Those who know the reality of Yeshua as God are on a whole different plane.

 

[AbbaLove]

There is a theory, then there is reality... Those who believe the theory can readily give it up in the face of reality or delusion. Those who know the reality of Yeshua as God are on a whole different plane.

Some traditions of men aren't necessarily evil except when they supplant an original ordinance of the LORD with a man-made ordinance. There were many Jews that celebrated Pesach and Unleavened Bread at the beginning of Abib 14 ... as did Yeshua and His Disciples as supported by various translations. Can all these translations be wrong? Well, if you believe the tradition of the Pharisees than you believe their reality over that of Yeshua and His Disciples. In fact some Messianics think the tradition of the Pharisees is the winning reality over the reality of Yeshua and His Disciples.

Matthew 26:17 (CJB)
On the first day for matzah, the talmidim came to Yeshua and asked, “Where do you want us to prepare your Seder?
Mark 14:12 (NKJV)
Now on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they killed the Passover lamb, His disciples said to Him, “Where do You want us to go and prepare, that You may eat the Passover?
Luke 22:7-9 (YLT)
7 And the day of the unleavened food came, in which it was behoving the passover to be sacrificed,
8 and he sent Peter and John, saying, `Having gone on, prepare to us the passover, that we may eat;'
9 and they said to him, `Where wilt thou that we might prepare?'​

The Messianics that follow the Pesach tradition of the Pharisees in effect believe a man-made tradition is the winning reality over the tradition of the Essenes, Sadducees and that of Yeshua and His Disciples as correctly based on Exodus 12:6-12.

 

[Dave-W]

However one must remember that there was only ONE Passover

Lev 23.4 ‘These are the appointed times of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them. 5 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is the Lord’s Passover.

This was written a LONG time after they had left Egypt.

 

[AbbaLove]

Lev 23.4 ‘These are the appointed times of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them. 5 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at *twilight is the Lord’s Passover.

Lev 23:5 (CJB)
5 “‘In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, *between sundown and complete darkness, comes Pesach for Adonai.
​

This period of *"twilight" is translated in the Torah most often as "at evening", "at twilight" and "between the evenings" in that order. There is reason to believe that the timeline when Yeshua and His Disciples observed Pesach (Seder) was at the beginning of "ereb" (evening twilight) on Abib 14.

6 On the fifteenth day of the same month is the festival of matzah; for seven days you are to eat matzah.
​

The three similar accounts by Matthew, Mark and Luke suggest that unleavened bread had already been removed from Jewish homes before the onset of Abib 14, with matzah being eaten on the evening of the 14th with the roasted lamb by Yeshua and His Disciples. Lev 23:6 indicates that the actual Celebration of Unleavened Bread didn't began until Abib 15. Any discrepancy revolves around the tradition of the Sadducees, Essenes and that of the Pharisees with their tradition beginning on the "afternoon" of Abib 14.

Were Joseph and Mary as well as many other Jews including Yeshua's Disciples more beholden to the tradition of the Sadducees and Essenes than to the tradition of the Pharisees? The three accounts by Matthew, Mark and Luke suggest that the LORD's Passover supposedly favored the tradition of the Sadducees and Essenes (Pesach at the beginning of Abib 14), and not on the afternoon of Abib 14 as was the tradition of the Pharisees. Yeshua said, “Watch out and be on your guard against the [1]leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees” (AMP). The Amplified translation would have us believe that the Pharisees were full of more leaven than were the Sadducees

[1]Here, leaven represents the man-made traditions and false teachings of the Pharisees which were preventing the nation of Israel from attaining right standing with God and from recognizing and accepting the Messiah.​

 

[gadar perets]

[QUOTE="AbbaLove, post: 71184261, member: 376778"]
Where in the last paragraph of my previous post do i write that the Passover lambs were killed before sunset on Abib 15? Or was that a typo or disinformation as i've never mentioned Abib 15 as the beginning of Pesach. [/QUOTE]

Did you not read what I wrote after I wrote what you quoted?

I wrote, "Oh my! I guess I misunderstood your clear words in the previous section to mean before sunset beginning Abib 15." I misunderstood what you wrote and admitted it. As I read what you wrote at the beginning of post #49, the thought NEVER occurred to me that you meant the waning daylight hours of Abib 13. Who in their right mind could ever think such a thing? Everyone knows the Passover lambs were killed on Abib 14, not Abib 13. It wasn't until further down in your post that you mentioned
Abib 13 ("*Abib 13 before sunset, not in the afternoon (נְט֣וֹת) of Abib 14"), that I came to realize how deceived you really are.

You need to read again the three accounts by Matthew, Mark and Luke.

No need. I know what they say and how they are mistranslated. You even admit, in post #56, that those accounts call Abib 14 the first day of Unleavened Bread. Wrong. As you noted, Scripture calls Abib 15 the first day of Unleavened Bread. A simple translation correction replacing "first" with "before" harmonizes everything.

Sowing discord does more to discredit your belief that the first evening of "between the two evenings" begins at 12:00 noon than helps to bolster your mistaken belief based on a man-made tradition of the Pharisees .

Your personal attacks on me as a sower of discord will not hide your errors and your failure to address the Scriptural arguments I pose.

Perhaps, you didn't fully grasp the intent of DaveW's comment in my previous post when he says ("twilight" on the 14th of Nisan [actually Abib 13] until sundown) just before the beginning of Abib 14.

Actually, it is you that doesn't fully grasp DaveW's comment. He originally wrote, "Correct me if I am wrong, but Pesach proper is only a few minutes long; from "twilight" on the 14th of Nisan until sundown, which starts the 15th and Chag haMatzot." Hopefully, DaveW will clarify what he meant and what he believes.

The westernized meaning of "twilight" is after sundown.

Prove it is a westernized meaning by showing the "eastern" meaning (not your assumptions, but facts).

Should a Messianic accept a man-made tradition of the Pharisees over the words as recorded by Moses (Exodus 12:6-12)?

Everyone should accept the words "beyn ha'arbayim". They should not accept "twilight".

Should a Messianic ignore the written Gospel accounts of Matthew, Mark and Luke as being untrustworthy?

No. They should study the Greek and what Torah says about unleavened bread and then make the necessary corrections where the translators messed up.

The only way a Messianic would believe the man-made tradition of the Pharisees, as perpetuated by Rabbinical Judaism, is if they believe that tradition is more trustworthy and pleasing to Yeshua than are the inspired writings of Moses and the Gospel accounts by Matthew, Mark and Luke.

All Messianics should believe that YHWH had His Passover Lamb killed at the exact moment that fulfills beyn ha'arbayim (3:00pm on Abib 14). To say otherwise is to allow the enemies of Yeshua to say he wasn't the true Passover Lamb because he was not killed at the correct time.

 

[gadar perets]

Lev 23.4 ‘These are the appointed times of the Lord, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at the times appointed for them. 5 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight is the Lord’s Passover.

This was written a LONG time after they had left Egypt.

May I ask what your point is?

 

[gadar perets]

The three similar accounts by Matthew, Mark and Luke suggest that unleavened bread had already been removed from Jewish homes before the onset of Abib 14, with matzah being eaten on the evening of the 14th with the roasted lamb by Yeshua and His Disciples. Lev 23:6 indicates that the actual Celebration of Unleavened Bread didn't began until Abib 15. Any discrepancy revolves around the tradition of the Sadducees, Essenes and that of the Pharisees with their tradition beginning on the "afternoon" of Abib 14.

The discrepancy revolves around you forcing an Abib 13 "twilight" and killing of the Passover lambs causing your refusal to even consider an error in translation.

 

[pat34lee]

And I just find it presumptuous for someone to come along, without a lifetime of study in Judaism, and say that the thousands of years of Jewish minds on the task of getting it right would make an obvious serious mistake.

And yet in some things, they do, whether by mistake or on purpose.