Passover and Unleavened Bread

[AbbaLove]

The whole of the Talmud is that it contains the arguments of the Sages for various points of view. And yet one point [Mosaic Law] wins, and the rest lose. This is why you can't just read the Talmud on your own, but MUST read it with a Talmud scholar.

The rest really don't lose. Ibn Ezra and Rashi (as well as his grandson Rashbam) are noteworthy winners.

Shemot 12:6 (Chabad's CJB)
And you shall keep it for inspection until the fourteenth day of this month, and the entire congregation of the community of Israel shall slaughter it in the afternoon.​

The Talmud didn't find a way to incorporate the word "between" so according to gadar Shemot 12:6 should better read "between" (aka בֵּ֥ין) "declining hours of the afternoon" (aka הָעַרְבָּֽיִם). According to gadar the word "between" is the correct translation and not "in the" when translating בֵּ֥ין . Maybe he will make an exception being the Mosaic Law of Chabad takes precedence over his preferred translation that might read more like this ...

"And you shall keep it for inspection until the fourteenth day of this month, and the entire congregation of the community of Israel shall slaughter it between declining hours of the afternoon sun."

 

[AbbaLove]

Isn't it true that it was a full moon? Excuse my ignorance, but what does SJ stand for?

The full moon is still well below the horizon during Pesach in Jerusalem at 3pm. The full moonrise at the horizon on April 11 in Jerusalem wasn't until 7:20 pm ... Moonrise, Moonset, and Moon Phase in Jerusalem, April 2017

The commentary was published by the Society of Jesus (aka Jesuits).

 

[gadar perets]

The Talmud didn't find a way to incorporate the word "between" so according to gadar Shemot 12:6 should better read "between" (aka בֵּ֥ין) "declining hours of the afternoon" (aka הָעַרְבָּֽיִם). According to gadar the word "between" is the correct translation and not "in the" when translating בֵּ֥ין . Maybe he will make an exception being the Mosaic Law of Chabad takes precedence over his preferred translation that might read more like this ...

"And you shall keep it for inspection until the fourteenth day of this month, and the entire congregation of the community of Israel shall slaughter it between declining hours of the afternoon sun."

The above translation, declining hours of the afternoon sun, would work better for Deuteronomy 16:6, not Exodus 12:6. There is only one correct way to translate "beyn ha'ar’bayim"; "between the evenings". Anything else like "twilight", "afternoon", etc., are not "translations, but interpretations.

 

[gadar perets]

The full moon is still well below the horizon during Pesach in Jerusalem at 3pm. The full moonrise at the horizon on April 11 in Jerusalem wasn't until 7:20 pm ... Moonrise, Moonset, and Moon Phase in Jerusalem, April 2017

The commentary was published by the Society of Jesus (aka Jesuits).

OK. I thought you were simply referring to Passover in general not being at a full moon, but you are talking about the exact time he was on the cross.

The moon rising right shortly after Yeshua was put in the tomb can be a sign in a way. Even though the light of the world was seemingly snuffed out, the light continued to shine. The moon reflects the sun's light just as the Son reflects the Father's light (he is the express image of the Father). However, if he died at the beginning of Abib 14 or the end of Abib 13, the full moon would have no significance.

 

[AbbaLove]

The above translation, declining hours of the afternoon sun, would work better for Deuteronomy 16:6, not Exodus 12:6. There is only one correct way to translate "beyn ha'ar’bayim"; "between the evenings". Anything else like "twilight", "afternoon", etc., are not "translations, but interpretations.

The reason it doesn't work for Exodus 12:6 is obvious. The death angel passed over the night of Abib 14. That literally means the lambs had to be killed at the beginning of Abib 14 "between the evenings" before the death angel passed over.

Literal translations like HRB, YLT, LITV ("between the evenings") point out that the killing of the Passover lambs (Exodus 12:6) occurred before the death angel passed over during the night of Abib 14. This literal translation can only be interpreted to mean that the lambs were killed between sunset and darkness (80 minutes of "twilight" according to Rabbi Ibn Ezra). Following are four footnotes from the Hebrew Roots Bible as examples of literal interpretations of a literal translation ...

FOUR FOOTNOTES WITH RESPECT TO THE FIRST PASSOVER
(between the evenings)
​

The Passover is kept until the beginning of the 14th day and killed between the evenings of the ending of the 13th and beginning of the 14th .

Although there may be confusion to the timing of Passover due to there being two evenings in a day, a beginning and ending evening, there is only one “midnight” and if Passover is named for the “passing-over” of the death angel, and scriptures states the 14th day of the month is Passover, (Lev 23:5), then the death angel passed over on the 14th of Aviv at midnight, showing the meal had to be eaten early in the beginning of the 14th and not late in the day at the beginning of the 15th as some wrongly do today. The custom of celebrating the Passover on the 15th day of Aviv came from modern Judaism but is not supported by scripture.

They left from Goshen where they lived and first traveled to Ramses, which was about 6 miles from Goshen and would have taken the better part of the daylight portion of the 14th of Aviv to travel.

This night to be remembered is not Passover when the death angel passed, but the next night and beginning of the 15th of Aviv when Israel actually left Egypt (Ex 16:1).​

Chabad's (Tanakh) CJB(in the afternoon) is not a literal translation (Rashi commentary). Neither is the (Tanakh) OJPS(dusk) or NJPS(twilight) a literal translation with respect to Exodus 12:6 בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם ("between the evenings").

 

[gadar perets]

​

The reason it doesn't work for Exodus 12:6 is obvious. The death angel passed over the night of Abib 14. That literally means the lambs had to be killed at the beginning of Abib 14 "between the evenings" before the death angel passed over.

The lambs were eaten on the night of Abib 15 after being killed before sunset ending Abib 14.

Although there may be confusion to the timing of Passover due to there being two evenings in a day, a beginning and ending evening, there is only one “midnight” and if Passover is named for the “passing-over” of the death angel, and scriptures states the 14th day of the month is Passover, (Lev 23:5), then the death angel passed over on the 14th of Aviv at midnight, showing the meal had to be eaten early in the beginning of the 14th and not late in the day at the beginning of the 15th as some wrongly do today. The custom of celebrating the Passover on the 15th day of Aviv came from modern Judaism but is not supported by scripture.

"Passover" can refer to the actual sacrifice on Abib 14 (Exodus 12:21), the actual night of the passing over on Abib 15 (Exodus 12:27), or the entire seven day Feast of Unleavened Bread from Abib 15-21 (Ezekiel 45:21).

They left from Goshen where they lived and first traveled to Ramses, which was about 6 miles from Goshen and would have taken the better part of the daylight portion of the 14th of Aviv to travel.

Goshen is a "land" in Egypt which is also called the "land of Ramses" (Genesis 45:10 and Genesis 47:11). It is one of the "nomes" of Egypt. When they left Ramses on Abib 15, they were leaving Goshen.

​

 

[AbbaLove]

The following helps to explain Rashi's understanding of "twilight(s)" and possibly why the JPS Tanakh 1985 (NJPS) now reads "at twilight" and not "at dusk" as does the JPS Tanakh 1917 (OJPS).

But rendering the Ex.12:6 & Nu.28:4 “between the evenings” as “twilight”, confuses the issue. In middle English, “twi” meant two or double. As twi-tongued. We have the English words twi-ns and twi-ce. Also: a twibil is a double-bladed ax, a twinter is a domestic animal two winters old, a twicer is a person who does two things. But “twilight” now indicates half (half-light at dusk or early dawn), not two or double. The ancient Jewish understanding more resembles the older English twi, since Israelites identified two evenings. And the ancient Passover sacrifice occurred between the two.
between the two evenings – Bible Topic Exposition​

So, when one reads Bibles that translate בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם as "at twilight" one should render it as between the twilights (mid-afternoon). The 1st twilight being at noon and the 2nd twilight at sunset. The Karaites considered three evenings (three twilights) with the 3rd twilight (about 45 minutes after sunset). Ibn Ezra considered the time between the 2nd twilight and the final twilight before darkness to be 1 and 1/3 hours (80 minutes). Modern translations generally define "twilight" as occurring between the 2nd twilight(sunset) and the 3rd or final twilight when three stars were visible (Sadducces). Thus the reason for roasting and eating of the first passover lambs (Exodus 12:6) occurring in the "evening" at the the beginning of Abib 14 (e.g. HRB and other so-called literal translations & literal interpretations). So, it's possible Jewish scholars working on the next JPS (version3) may render בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם as "between the twilights".

Although this may not be to your 'literal' (ereb-evening) liking it would go along way to helping Messianics and traditional Christians think of two (or three) twilights just as Judaism (Chabad) thinks of two evenings as "in the afternoon". If Strong's 6153 (עָ֫רֶב) were to someday equate 'evening' as 'twilight' it shouldn't be any more difficult for Messianics and Christians to think of the 1st evening beginning at noon ... than it would be for them to think of the 1st twilight as beginning at noon.

 

[gadar perets]

I want to "Like" your post, but I will reserve that until you answer my next question. Are you now believing the Passover lambs were killed in the afternoon ending Abib 14 as the Jews in Yeshua's day did?

 

[AbbaLove]

I want to "Like" your post, but I will reserve that until you answer my next question. Are you now believing the Passover lambs were killed in the afternoon ending Abib 14 as the Jews in Yeshua's day did?

Don't want to be too hasty after 2,000 years of a contentious unresolved controversy by scholarly translators of Hebrew ...

Maybe, the day will come when Strong's will say that "between two evenings" and "between the twilights" should be understood as meaning one and the same with respect to Exodus 12:6 (בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם) and other related Tanakh Passover verses. Hey, maybe (with enuf time) "between the twilights" will become the preferred literal translation of בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם

I misspoke about the Karaites and three evenings with the 3rd evening being what we would call the beginning of night (not another evening). Not really sure what is meant by three evenings. Do you have a [Karaite] take??? Here is an excerpt about what the Karaites believed ...

During the 9th century C.E., a number of sects arose that denied the existence of oral Torah. These sects came to be known as Karaites (literally, People of the Scripture), and they were distinguished from the Rabbanites or Rabbinical Judaism.

The Karaites believed in strict interpretation of the literal text of the scripture, without rabbinical interpretation. They believed that rabbinical law was not part of an oral tradition that had been handed down from G-d, nor was it inspired by G-d, but was an original work of the sages. As such, rabbinical teachings are subject to the flaws of any document written by mere mortals.
​

According to the Karaites, their movement at one time attracted as much as 40% of the Jewish people. They believed the sacrifice (Pessah / Pessach) was to be slain "during twilight at the end of the 14th" of the First Month. If so, then that further supports your "commentary".

We know that 250,000 lambs weren't slain by the Priests on the Temple grounds at the time of Yeshua. Josephus says that it wasn't necessary for a priest to lay his hand on all 250,000 lambs. That many Israelites enjoyed their Passover meal staying up late into the night of Abib 14 (or late into the night of Abib 15th as you and other Messianics believe) celebrating and enjoying their Passover meal. So apparently many Israelites killed and slaughtered their lambs at home (with unleavened bread) during the time of Yeshua. Have you heard of this scenario with far less than half the number lambs (30 CE) actually slain on Temple Grounds by Temple Priests?

If as you suggest that Yeshua and His Disciples had a sort of pre-Seder meal do you believe they had unleavened bread or regular bread like the "sop" that Yeshua gave to Judas?

John 13:26 KJV
Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
John 13:26 YLT
Jesus answereth, `That one it is to whom I, having dipped the morsel, shall give it;' and having dipped the morsel, he giveth [it] to Judas of Simon, Iscariot.
John 13:26 HRB
Yahshua answered, It is he to whom I, having dipped and give the bread to. And dipping the bread, He gave it to Judas Iscariot, son of Simon.
John 13:26 CJB
Yeshua answered, “It’s the one to whom I give this piece of matzah after I dip it in the dish.” So he dipped the piece of matzah and gave it to Y’hudah Ben-Shim‘on from K’riot.
Yochanan 13:26 OJB
He answers, That one it is to whom I will dip the [maror into the charoset] morsel and will give to him. Having dipped, therefore, he takes the [maror, charoset, matzah] morsel and gives to Yehuda Ben Shimon from K’riot.

 

[gadar perets]

Hey, maybe (with enuf time) "between the twilights" will become the preferred literal translation of בֵּ֥ין הָעַרְבָּֽיִם ​

​

You do know that עַרְבָּֽיִם is the plural of "ereb", correct?

I don't know how the Karaites view the issue.

We know that 250,000 lambs weren't slain by the Priests on the Temple grounds at the time of Yeshua. Josephus says that it wasn't necessary for a priest to lay his hand on all 250,000 lambs. That many Israelites enjoyed their Passover meal staying up late into the night of Abib 14 (or late into the night of Abib 15th as you believe) celebrating and enjoying their Passover meal. Having killed and slaughtered their lambs at home with unleavened bread. Have you heard of this scenario with far less than half the number lambs actually slain by Temple Priests.

Can you give me the reference for Josephus' quote?

If as you suggest that Yeshua and His Disciples had a sort of pre-Seder meal do you believe they had unleavened bread or regular bread like the "sop" that Yeshua gave to Judas?

It could have been either. If I recall correctly, leaven did not have to be totally removed until noon on the 14th according to the Jews of Messiah's day. I choose to use unleavened bread for the Master's Supper since it is a more fitting symbol of his sinlessness.

 

[AbbaLove]

You do know that עַרְבָּֽיִם is the plural of "ereb", correct?

Possibly "twilight" was considered synonymous with "ereb" by the ancient Israelites. Maybe, it was an Egyptian thing that rubbed off on Moses and those like Joshua that followed the Mosaic Law. When reading translations that say "at twilight" a more literal interpretation would be "between twi-lights".

Can you give me the reference for Josephus' quote?

It wasn't so much a quote as an interpreted understanding as expressed in either the Exodus or Leviticus Commentary by Michael Carasik. He was the moderator of that recent symposium celebrating the 100th anniversary of The JPS Holy Scriptures ... NMAJH EVENT:The Future of American Jewish Bible Translation ... When i get over to the University Library again will pull Carasik's Exodus and Leviticus Commentary. Hopefully i can find the reference and will write down the word for word reference by Carasik about Josephus implication that many lambs were slaughtered by the Jews at/near their homes at the beginning of Abib 14.

It could have been either. If I recall correctly, leaven did not have to be totally removed until noon on the 14th according to the Jews of Messiah's day. I choose to use unleavened bread for the Master's Supper since it is a more fitting symbol of His sinlessness.

Were you here last spring when the MJ author of a prize winning book was frequently posting on a Passover thread? He believed that the "sop" Yeshua and the Disciples (including Judas) were eating was leavened bread. Likewise, he believed that Paul was speaking of leavened bread in his letter to the Corinthians. It was the belief of this same author that early Christians were eating leavened bread when they fellowshipped in commemoration of the Lord's Supper. Furthermore he believed that the unleavened wafers served during communion in Christian churches is unscriptural. I checked back to the 23rd previous page (last spring) but couldn't find the thread ... maybe it got deleted.