Passover and Unleavened Bread

[visionary]

It is quite common for Passover to be considered part of the feast of Unleavened Bread and the Feast of Unleavened Bread to be called Passover. When did this start? Should they be kept separate or combined?

 

[Open Heart]

Since Messianic Judaism is a Judaism, I see no reason to do it differently from any of the other Judaisms.

 

[Adstar]

It is quite common for Passover to be considered part of the feast of Unleavened Bread and the Feast of Unleavened Bread to be called Passover. When did this start? Should they be kept separate or combined?

Well Passover was considered part of the feast of unleavened bread in the times of Jesus.. But to be exactly correct Passover is the feast before the start of the first day of unleavened bread.. So they should be looked upon a separate if you look at the OT references to them..

The 14th of Nisan was the Passover and the next day the 15th was the first day of the feast of unleavened bread which lasted 7 days.. The first day and the last day of the 7 days where Sabbaths.. They are called High Sabbaths in the Bible.. Jesus had to be buried before the First day of unleavened bread.. So Jesus was executed and buried on the Passover day.. Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the World, He is the ultimate Passover Lamb without blemish..

 

[Dave-W]

There are actually 3 different observances that since 2nd temple times have been linked together. Pesach, Chag haMatzot, and Yom haBikkurim.

In Lev 23 they are all distinct.


Correct me if I am wrong, but Pesach proper is only a few minutes long; from "twilight" on the 14th of Nisan until sundown, which starts the 15th and Chag haMatzot.

 

[AbbaLove]

Correct me if I am wrong, but Pesach proper is only a few minutes long; from "twilight" on the 14th of Nisan until sundown, which starts the 15th and Chag haMatzot.

Dusk or "evening twilight" begins at sunset/sundown.

Civil twilight. It starts as soon as the sun dips below the western horizon. Under clear weather conditions, the length of "civil twilight" ends when solar illumination of the sky has diminished enough for the human eye to distinguish terrestrial objects. The horizon is still visible while the brightest stars or the first sliver of a new moon is also visible with a clear sky.

Law-makers have enshrined the concept of twilight. Such statutes typically use a fixed period after sunset or before sunrise (most commonly 20–30 minutes), rather than how many degrees the sun is below the horizon.

Is Pesach proper a term you coined that you define as: only a few minutes long; from "twilight" on the 14th of Nisan until sundown, which starts the 15th and Chag haMatzot.

 

[Dave-W]

Dusk or "evening twilight" occurs after sunset/sundown.

If that is so, then the ENTIRE night and day of Nisan 14 is Pesach?

Is that how the Israelites in Exodus understood it?
Is it how it was taken in the 2nd temple period?

Law-makers have enshrined the concept of twilight. Such statutes typically use a fixed period after sunset or before sunrise (most commonly 20–30 minutes), rather than how many degrees the sun is below the horizon.

Modern legislation is not important. Ancient Jewish understanding is.

 

[AbbaLove]

Dusk or "evening twilight" in Israel is generally understood to begin at/after sunset/sundown and lasts until the first 3 brightest stars are visible (about 30 minutes after sunset with clear sky).

Dusk or "evening twilight" is understood to begin at/after sunset/sundown NOT before sunset as you posted.

Where did you come up with the idea that the Israelites considered Pesach proper as: only a few minutes long; from "twilight" on the 14th of Nisan until sundown, which starts the 15th and Chag haMatzot. ?

It would help if you define what you mean by Pesach proper if in fact your research implies that the Israelites understood "twilight" as lasting only a few minutes before sunset.

 

[Adstar]

There are actually 3 different observances that since 2nd temple times have been linked together. Pesach, Chag haMatzot, and Yom haBikkurim.

In Lev 23 they are all distinct.


Correct me if I am wrong, but Pesach proper is only a few minutes long; from "twilight" on the 14th of Nisan until sundown, which starts the 15th and Chag haMatzot.

Passover goes for 24 hours from sundown to sundown on the 14th of nisan..

 

[James Bejon]

Dear All. A few quick comments in case they’re of any help. Acc. to Exod. 12.6, Passover lambs are to be killed at ‘twilight’ (lit. ‘between the eves’). The phrase ‘between the eves’ is an unusual one. Acc. to Ibn Ezra, the time when the sun first begins to descend (beneath the horizon) denotes ‘the first eve’, and the ‘second eve’ begins when the sun’s light can no longer be seen (Ibn Ezra on Exod. 12.6). So, the period ‘between the eves’ denotes ‘twilight’--i.e., the period just before dusk--, which seems consistent with the LXX’s translation of bên hāʿarbayim as deilē prōia (‘towards [the] eve’). It is also consistent with Deut. 16.6, where the Passover sacrifice is said to take place kĕbôʾ haššemeš (‘once the sun goes [down]’ cf. Gen. 28.11, Deut. 23.11, 24.13, etc.). Exactly how the Passover has been observed in practice is another matter. Josephus says the Passover lambs were typically slain between 3 and 5 p.m. (J.W. 6.9.3), while the Mishna (m. Pes. 5.3) appears to permit sacrifices from noon onwards (on the basis of Exod. 12.6).

Hope that helps,

James.

 

[gadar perets]

It is quite common for Passover to be considered part of the feast of Unleavened Bread and the Feast of Unleavened Bread to be called Passover. When did this start? Should they be kept separate or combined?

Passover can mean either the sacrifice (Numbers 9:5; Leviticus 23:5) or the seven day Feast of Unleavened Bread (Ezekiel 45:21). Therefore, it is not wrong to refer to the entire FOUB (Abib 15-21) as Passover. However, it must also be understood that the Passover sacrifice takes place on Abib 14.

The Passover lambs were not killed at “twilight” (after sundown), but at approx. 3:00 pm on the afternoon of Abib 14. The Jews are correct in their understanding of “between the evenings” since Yeshua’s death at exactly 3:00 pm (the ninth hour) fulfills the true Passover Lamb sacrifice perfectly. “Between the evenings” is also when the evening sacrifice was to take place (Exodus 29:38-41).

"Now this is that which thou shalt offer upon the altar; two lambs of the first year day by day continually. The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even: And with the one lamb a tenth deal of flour mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil; and the fourth part of an hin of wine for a drink offering. And the other lamb thou shalt offer at even, and shalt do thereto according to the meat offering of the morning, and according to the drink offering thereof, for a sweet savour, an offering made by fire unto Yahweh."​

Two lambs were to be offered each day; one in the morning and the other between the evenings. The word "one" in verse 39 is the Hebrew "echad" which can also mean "first" as in Numbers 29:1;

"And in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work: it is a day of blowing the trumpets unto you."​

The word "other" in verse 39 is the Hebrew "sheniy". According to Strong's Concordance it means "double ie: second." If the other lamb or more correctly, the second lamb, were sacrificed after sunset then it would be a new day making it the first lamb sacrificed. This is one reason the Jews always sacrificed the second lamb at 3:00 in the afternoon.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Since Messianic Judaism is a Judaism, I see no reason to do it differently from any of the other Judaisms.

How about Yom HaBikkurim? What about the counting for Shavuot/Pentecost?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

The word "other" in verse 39 is the Hebrew "sheniy". According to Strong's Concordance it means "double ie: second." If the other lamb or more correctly, the second lamb, were sacrificed after sunset then it would be a new day making it the first lamb sacrificed. This is one reason the Jews always sacrificed the second lamb at 3:00 in the afternoon.

As in "Pesakh Shenii" Also they had tens of thousands of lambs to slaughter.

 

[AbbaLove]

The Torah describes the time of the Passover Sacrifice with three different expressions: "At Sunset", "At Evening" and "Between The Two Evenings." All three of these terms refer to the early evening, shortly after sunset.

In Matthew 23:3 Yeshua said ...
"All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not." (KJV)

During the time of Yeshua the sacrifical Passover lamb was not killed at “twilight” but at approx. 2:30-3:00 pm on the afternoon of Abib/Nisan 14 according to the tradition of the Pharisees.

 

[gadar perets]

The Torah describes the time of the Passover Sacrifice with three different expressions: "At Sunset", "At Evening" and "Between The Two Evenings." All three of these terms refer to the early evening, shortly after sunset.

In Matthew 23:3 Yeshua said ...
"All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not." (KJV)

During the time of Yeshua the sacrifical Passover lamb was not killed at “twilight” but at approx. 2:30-3:00 pm on the afternoon of Abib/Nisan 14 according to the tradition of the Pharisees.

Are you saying Yeshua and all the Passover lambs were sacrificed at the wrong time in Yeshua's day?

Where does Torah say the Passover was sacrificed "at sunset"?

 

[Truthfrees]

MOD HAT

Posts have been removed for going off topic.

 

[AbbaLove]

Dusk or "evening twilight" begins at sunset/sundown.

If that is so, then the ENTIRE night and day of Nisan 14 is Pesach? Is that how the Israelites in Exodus understood it?

Yes, according to the translated scripture (Exodus 12:6) "twilight" = "between the two evenings" ...

Deuteronomy 16:5-7
5 Thou mayest not sacrifice the Passover within any of thy gates, which the LORD thy God giveth thee:
6 But at the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place His name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the Passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.
7 And thou shalt roast and eat [it] in the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: and thou shalt turn in the morning, and go unto thy tents.
Deuteronomy 16 Interlinear Bible

Is it how it was taken in the 2nd temple period?

Then the tradition of One Spotless Male Lamb being carefully chosen and inspected (4 days) and slain by the High Priest (3:00 pm on the 14th) for all of Israel.

John 11:49-50
49 And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all,
50 nor do you consider that it is expedient for us that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish.”

John 2:13-16 (CJB)
13 It was almost time for the festival of Pesach in Y’hudah, so Yeshua went up to Yerushalayim.
14 In the Temple grounds he found those who were selling cattle, sheep and pigeons, and others who were sitting at tables exchanging money.
15 He made a whip from cords and drove them all out of the Temple grounds, the sheep and cattle as well. He knocked over the money-changers’ tables, scattering their coins;
16 and to the pigeon-sellers he said, “Get these things out of here! How dare you turn my Father’s house into a market?”

The poor couldn't afford to buy a lamb for Pesach, but it was permitted for them to buy a pigeon/dove to sacrifice. We get an idea of how the 2nd Temple grounds had become a market place leading up to Pesach. The Pharisees going through the motions according to the interpretation of their "letter of laws."

Matthew 23:3 (CJB)
"So whatever they tell you, take care to do it. But don’t do what they do, because they talk but don’t act!" (the Words of Yeshua)

During the time of Yeshua the sacrificial Passover Lamb was killed in the afternoon (3:00 pm) of Abib/Nisan 14 in order to coincide with the then established tradition of the Pharisees.

 

[DennisTate]

It is quite common for Passover to be considered part of the feast of Unleavened Bread and the Feast of Unleavened Bread to be called Passover. When did this start? Should they be kept separate or combined?

I don't know the answer to that....
but I did hear years ago that there is an ancient Rabbinic tradition that
the final Elijah will become known to the Jewish people on the last day of Unleavened Bread.....
which I believe is today... April 18.....

 

[gadar perets]

Yes, according to the translated scripture (Exodus 12:6) "twilight" = "between the two evenings" ...

Deuteronomy 16:5-7
5 Thou mayest not sacrifice the Passover within any of thy gates, which the LORD thy God giveth thee:
6 But at the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place His name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the Passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.
7 And thou shalt roast and eat [it] in the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: and thou shalt turn in the morning, and go unto thy tents.
Deuteronomy 16 Interlinear Bible

What does the phrase "going down of the sun" mean? The sun is going down from noon until it totally sets below the horizon. The same Hebrew construction is found in Joshua 8:29;

"And the king of Ai he hanged on a tree until eventide: and as soon as the sun was down, Joshua commanded that they should take his carcass down from the tree, and cast it at the entering of the gate of the city, and raise thereon a great heap of stones, that remains unto this day."​

The bold words are the equivalent Hebrew found in Deuteronomy 16:6 (at the going down). A similar occurrence is found in Joshua 10:27;

"And it came to pass at the time of the going down of the sun, that Joshua commanded, and they took them down off the trees, and cast them into the cave wherein they had been hid, and laid great stones in the cave's mouth, which remain until this very day."​

Again, the bold words are the equivalent Hebrew of Deuteronomy 16:6. Joshua was obeying Yahweh's commandment found in Deuteronomy 21:22,23;

"And if a man committed a sin worthy of death, and he be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of Elohim, that thy land be not defiled, which YHWH thy Elohim gives thee for an inheritance."​

The body had to be buried the same day it was hung on the tree. That means it had to be buried before sunset. Therefore, when Deuteronomy 16:6 says, "sacrifice the Passover at even, at the going down of the sun,..." it shows it means prior to sunset.

During the time of Yeshua the sacrificial Passover Lamb was killed in the afternoon (3:00 pm) of Abib/Nisan 14 in order to coincide with the then established tradition of the Pharisees.

So, you believe Yeshua was killed at the wrong time. Isaiah 53 tells us YHWH was the prime mover behind Yeshua's death. Yeshua was "smitten of God", had our sins laid on him by YHWH, and was bruised by YHWH; all as our Passover Lamb. Therefore, you are saying YHWH had our Lamb sacrificed at the wrong time.

 

[AbbaLove]

Yeshua, the Lamb of God, was slain at the right time to coincide with the then 2nd Temple tradition of the Pharisees as previously posted ....

The Pharisees believed "between the eves" was between the remaining six afternoon hours of daylight (12 noon to 6 pm) with 3:00 pm being midway between the two eves.

Whether this interpretation also applied to the first Pesach, as well as during the 1st Temple period is open to discussion. Would the Hebrews have put the blood over their doorway as early as 3:00 pm OR more likely during the twilight of dusk? The sacrifice was roasted and then eaten that night and nothing of the sacrifice was allowed to remain until morning.

So, we agree that during the 2nd Temple period written accounts indicate the Pesach lambs were slain during the afternoon of Abib 14 ("between the eves"), then roasted and eaten after sundown in the beginning hour(s) of Abib 15 with unleavened bread.

The word erev Pesach can be interpreted as "the day before; the eve of" ...
Erev definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

[/indent]"On the eve of the fifteenth day of Nisan in the Hebrew calendar, we read from a book called the hagaddah, meaning "telling", which contains the order of prayers, rituals, readings and songs for the Pesach seder.

The seder has a number of scriptural bases. Exodus 12:3-11 describes the meal of lamb, unleavened bread, and bitter herbs which the Israelites ate just prior to the Exodus."
http://www.templese.com/jewish-basics/holidays/passover[/indent]

The word erev/eve seems to be the cause of some uncertainty as to whether or not the Feast of Unleavened Bread began on the same day as the eating of the Pesach lambs.

 

[gadar perets]

I don't see why or how the observance would differ between the first and second temple periods. If they did, then those during the second temple period sinned by doing it wrong. I doubt that was the case, especially since we have Scriptural proof that "between the evenings" refers to a period of time prior to sunset, not during twilight (post #10). As I understand it, from sunrise ending one evening to sunset beginning the next evening is "between the evenings" (the daylight portion of a day). Deuteronomy clarifies it further by saying the lambs were slain "at the going down of the sun." Therefore, it must be done during the second half of the daylight period (afternoon) with 3:00 being the midpoint.