Parish relationships ...

[~Anastasia~]

Now I'm curious.

I know the Greeks have a very long tradition of "koumbari" (not sure if I'm spelling that right). Basically the people who stand up with/sponsor a baptism or marriage in the Church become actually related to the persons undergoing the Sacrament. And the relationships extend outward.

If a person baptized a boy and a girl from different families, the boy and girl would essentially become siblings and could never marry each other. I know many families keep a tradition of baptizing only boys or only girls so this will never be a problem for a young couple.

My questions are - do other jurisdictions/traditions hold to this?

And how far back does this go? (When did it start?)

I'm guessing canon law addresses it at some point, but I'm not familiar with the references.

Thanks for any info!

 

[Not David]

Now I'm curious.

I know the Greeks have a very long tradition of "koumbari" (not sure if I'm spelling that right). Basically the people who stand up with/sponsor a baptism or marriage in the Church become actually related to the persons undergoing the Sacrament. And the relationships extend outward.

If a person baptized a boy and a girl from different families, the boy and girl would essentially become siblings and could never marry each other. I know many families keep a tradition of baptizing only boys or only girls so this will never be a problem for a young couple.

My questions are - do other jurisdictions/traditions hold to this?

And how far back does this go? (When did it start?)

I'm guessing canon law addresses it at some point, but I'm not familiar with the references.

Thanks for any info!

You mean like a compadre or comadre?

 

[~Anastasia~]

You mean like a compadre or comadre?

If you mean the Spanish "friend" - no.

It's an actual relationship especially through marriage - kind of like a best man and maid of honor becoming relatives.

But it can be a general term to refer to sacramental relatives, though those through baptism have particular names. I am "Nouna" ... like a godmother ... related to the ones I stood with in their baptism.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Here's a small bit I found ...

What is Koumbari?

"This is a Greek term indicating a spiritual relationship akin to family. A koumbaro(masculine). or koumbari (feminine), is someone with whom a relationship has been sanctified in the eyes of the church, for example, a godparent at a christening, or a best man at a wedding ceremony."Dec 5, 2004

 

[ArmyMatt]

I know that's what we do in the OCA.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I know that's what we do in the OCA.

thanks!
Any idea when it might have started?

 

[Not David]

If you mean the Spanish "friend" - no.

It's an actual relationship especially through marriage - kind of like a best man and maid of honor becoming relatives.

But it can be a general term to refer to sacramental relatives, though those through baptism have particular names. I am "Nouna" ... like a godmother ... related to the ones I stood with in their baptism.

I believe that is the colloquial term. Wikipedia has some info on the original meaning:

The compadre (Spanish: [komˈpaðɾe], Portuguese: [kũˈpaðɾɨ], [kõˈpadɾi], literally "co-father" or "co-parent") relationship between the parents and godparents of a child is an important bond that originates when a child is baptized in Iberian, Latin American, and Filipino families. The abstract noun compadrazgo (Spanish and Filipino), compadrio (in Portuguese), both meaning "co-parenthood," is sometimes used to refer to the institutional relationship between compadres.[1][2][3]

 

[ArmyMatt]

thanks!
Any idea when it might have started?

not really, but it does make a lot of sense. imagine if a guy marries his godsister and later is made a priest. as the priest, he has spiritual authority over the godparents. as godparents, they have authority over the priest.

that can be messy.

 

[~Anastasia~]

not really, but it does make a lot of sense. imagine if a guy marries his godsister and later is made a priest. as the priest, he has spiritual authority over the godparents. as godparents, they have authority over the priest.

that can be messy.

Oh I agree it makes great sense, though I hadn't thought of what you describe. I'm actually aware of a familial/ecclesiastical contradiction similar to that and someone got upset that they didn't have authority over the priest as they expected/hoped to have.

But aside from that, I find it outstanding that so many family connections exist, knitting persons in the parish ever closer to one another.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Oh I agree it makes great sense, though I hadn't thought of what you describe. I'm actually aware of a familial/ecclesiastical contradiction similar to that and someone got upset that they didn't have authority over the priest as they expected/hoped to have.

But aside from that, I find it outstanding that so many family connections exist, knitting persons in the parish ever closer to one another.

agreed.

 

[Coolbutclueless]

I heard it explained once that historically there were lots of actual blood ties between a Godparent and Godchild, like it might be their aunt or something. So in that context it would make some sense. At the same time its pretty much a "ask priest/bishop" type of thing.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I heard it explained once that historically there were lots of actual blood ties between a Godparent and Godchild, like it might be their aunt or something. So in that context it would make some sense. At the same time its pretty much a "ask priest/bishop" type of thing.

Our priest is in the process of being transferred. I did ask generally on FB where I know a lot of priests and a bishop or two often kindly answer my questions.

But so far I've only gotten what you said - that often an uncle or some other relative would baptize and that it didn't create more preventions to marriage.

I did find some canons around the mid-500s that address what kind of sacramental interrelationships were prevented. So it had to be in practice prior to that.

And I think I remember St. John Chrysostom saying something to the effect that people shouldn't baptize each others' children, because the families were already joined with the first baptism and it was his ideal that ever more family connections be created. If it was St. John Chrysostom, that would mean the practice predated around 300 AD to have developed practices by his time.

That's all I've been able to find though.

 

[JohnTh]

κουμπάρος is seen more as Godfather - in traditional orthodox weddings there isn't the notion of Best Man. Yes, the Godfather(s) has a long tradition in traditional orthodox area(s) - and I say now that the old canons which you found are taken in account. It isn't like - let's say - with diaconesses which disappeared.
Yes, there are strong spiritual ties.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Thank you for the info and please forgive my clumsiness in explaining.

I got curious in explaining it to someone who then decided it was a very wrong idea and does not see it the same way I do. I doubt I can change the other person's mind so there's no point in trying to prove the Church historically did things this way or why it's a good thing. Still, I was wondering for my own sake. I'm always pleased to discover how deeply the roots often go in Orthodoxy.

I keep being reminded how St. Paul refers to himself as St. Timothy's father, and other mentions of spiritual fathers in the Scriptures. Maybe the notion goes back to the Apostles? I don't know.

Thank you for the information. It is helpful. I know a lot of godchild/godparent relationships, but I'm not really closely privy to any relationships created by marriage, except to know that they frequently see each other and function like family over many decades even.