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12volt_man said:Does this mean that you will quit belittling it?
If it seems like I'm belittling it, my apologies. I get carried away sometimes. No offense is intended.
Again, how do these things show that something is true?
I think the first religions are the first religions for a reason. That is why.
All sin seperates us from God.
Proving my point that God will only save those who worship him.
Yes, He did. Now we have to ask ourselves whether or not this is a true statement.
Well, your savior said it, isn't that truth enough for you?
Actually, Hell is a real, literal place and we do know quite a bit about it.
I do not think you have been decieved. Believe in what you wish. Just don'y go telling me that everything my lif eis based on is lies. Becaue to me and many others, our faith is real, and so is yours to you.
I go to a Catholic school (not by choice) so I am quite familiar with Jesus. I've read the bible and Torah twice each. So, i'm not ignorant of your god.
Now, I did not say that Jesus himself forced christianity on others, it was the PEOPLE who did it. Since humans always force their ideals on each other, not Jesus.
Plus, I think you would start believing in something pretty fast if you were threatened with death or exile. You have to put it in the context of their times, not ours.
Adstar said:Yggdrasil
If what i believe is false then i have been decieved and also the same for you if what you believe is false then you have been decieved. So if you think i am wrong in what i have said to you then you think i am decieved. We cannot both be right satan either exists or he does not. Either you are decieved or i am decieved there is no half way neutrality here.
Going to a religious school and reading the bible means nothing if you are not guided by the Holy Spirit in your reading. The Bible clearly states that the Gospel is foolishness to many people and to others a stumbling stone.
I was just stating that I was not ignorant of your teachings.
Thank you. And therefore anyone who goes against the clear direction of Jesus in the spreading of the faith by using violence and intimidation is Not a true follower of Jesus right? And therefore you should not be calling them christians, or using their actions down throughout history as an argument against the faith of Jesus.
I have nothing against your god, but some of the people who have done injustice in it's name.
No. Many people do not believe in things when they face death or intimidation, people just do and say all the things that "society" deems nessecary for them to exist. And this thing is not something that happens in "their times" People are being threatened with death and are having their heads hacked of today because they refuse to believe in a lie.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Yggdrasil said:If it seems like I'm belittling it, my apologies. I get carried away sometimes. No offense is intended.
I think the first religions are the first religions for a reason. That is why.
Proving my point that God will only save those who worship him.
Well, your savior said it, isn't that truth enough for you?
Is that so? Then where is it and what specifically do we know about it?
12volt_man said:Of course. Why would we be offended, just because you call our most cherished beliefs "fairy tales".
It is widely accepted that most of the OT are moral stories. Several of my theology professors ,who are staunch Catholic conservatives, wil bakc me up on this.
How does something being the first show that it is true?
I believe everything happens for a reason, and the reason for them being first and all the other sbeing second and third says something.
God does not save us on the basis of our worship. We worship out of gratitude for our salvation.
Still, my point stands.
I do believe that it's true. But just because I believe something doesn't make it true. Either it's true across the board, for everyone, or it's not.
In response to the highlighted text: Then how can you believe something if you have doubt that it's true or not?
Yes.
We know that it is a place prepared for the Devil and his angels and the wicked who are seperated from God by sin.
We know that it is fiery.
We know that it is eternal.
We know that it is inescapable.
Most important of all, we know that Jesus died on our behalf so that we would not have to go there.
Yggdrasil said:It is widely accepted that most of the OT are moral stories. Several of my theology professors ,who are staunch Catholic conservatives, wil bakc me up on this.
I believe everything happens for a reason, and the reason for them being first and all the other sbeing second and third says something.
Still, my point stands.
Then how can you believe something if you have doubt that it's true or not?
Those are hardly real facts and cannot be proven.
Yggdrasil said:Hello. I am a proud Pagan and I'm wondering what are your TRUE AND HONEST opinions on Paganism is.
carminejulie said:itis the worship of the created, not the creator. paganism sees God is the creation.
You worship GAia so much of the things you do are done with a consideration to a healthy earth, not because it is the right thing to do ethically, but because you are part of her, your mother that created you....
Well I'd have to meet some of these "normal" pagans, wouldn't I?Yggdrasil said:
Still, that does not give anyone the right to judge everyone of a certain faith just because they met some bad apples. It's like me judging all christians off of what certain morons like Pat Robertson says.
That's a fundamental disagreement between your faith and mine. Morality is absolute. There is absolute good and absolute evil.Yggdrasil said:
What exactly is the definition of evil? Is evil even real, since evil and good are purely subjective? I'm sorry, but there are no evil spirits in my faith. The stereotype the far right has put out about Pagans is pretty much hate speech.
Not really. Even in the days of Constantine the Great (who was the first Christian emporer, and granted tolerance to ALL religions in the Empire) Christian troops under the other Augustus were culled from the ranks forcefully and slowly. It was not until Constantine defeated him in battle three years later that all Christians in the Empire were legally safe.Yggdrasil said:
The only reason Christianity is as big as it is, is because it was adopted by one of the largest militaries in the world(Rome) and was spread through forceful means.
twistedsketch said:Well I'd have to meet some of these "normal" pagans, wouldn't I?
That's a fundamental disagreement between your faith and mine. Morality is absolute. There is absolute good and absolute evil.
Not really. Even in the days of Constantine the Great (who was the first Christian emporer, and granted tolerance to ALL religions in the Empire) Christian troops under the other Augustus were culled from the ranks forcefully and slowly. It was not until Constantine defeated him in battle three years later that all Christians in the Empire were legally safe.
Furthermore, your claim does not account for the many soldiers, senators, plebians, ex-priests and ex-priestesses who were converted from one form of paganism or another before the Christian emporers came about.
RayJGentry said:Well, I don't really have any thoughts about paganism. Your religion doesn't compell you to kill people or live outside the Social Contract. You are still my brother, as a creation of God deserving my love as much as everyone else. You said that you've done research over the past 20 years and I hope you continue to do so. I think that anyone who becomes completely satisfied with their faith will become stagnant with it and it will cease to be a living faith. I hope that you do not put Christians in your life who condemn and judge you, that is not our place. I hope that you do not exclude Christians from your life simply for that fact. I pray that you discuss and debate with them, honestly and open mindedly. If at the end of the day, your mind is the same, then bless you and I hope your journey continues with blessings.
I believe that my faith is right, but that my belief in my God does not give me the right to judge you. I will share my faith with you when and if you are willing and I will discuss with you both your religion and mine.
Ray J Gentry IV
ForumGuy said:Yggdrasil: Unlike the other Christans in this thread, I'm not going to bother trying to convert you or such, since you seem pretty set in your beliefs, and I don't think theirs anything I can say to convince you.
I hope you do not find what I am about to ask offensive, I do not mean any offence, I have just noticed something and it has made me curious.
Something I'm curious of, do you practice magic?
If so, have you had any adverse effects from it?
I have a theory that it can lead come across many Satanists who had trouble speaking and thinking coherantly, and it seems to have started and/or devloped as they practicsed magic. I even see a lesser effect in Pagan magic users, maybe its just me.
But one of my friends is a Pagan. He is an actual genius (having scored high enough on his IQ test), and talking to him you can tell. Hes a cool guy, but suffered depression in the past, and still has to take heavy drugs, and sometimes angrily snaps with no or almost no provaction. Its not even a short temper, sometime his mood just seems to shift. And I remember when we were playing a fantasy and I was asking about why the critical magic table in Gurps worked the way it did (not even thinking about religon or anything) he replied "Magic is about bending reality. If you push it too far, it can snap back on you".
So it really makes me wonder. I would ask him, but I don't want offend him, and he seems to think I'm a little preachy, even though I'm not (and I swear, I don't try to constantly convert him, or bring it up except when the others start talking about religon or spirituality).
Tyrone24 said:You know, I have some pagan friends too, and they seem to be very nice and sensible people. I know that every religion probably has some very nice and some very mean members of it, yet, are many pagans that you know as nice and (this is a little mis-worded probably) knowledgable about their religion as you are?
talitha said:Here's what I believe in more detail - probably some of this you have not heard before.
The Bible says that Jesus is the Lamb "Slain from the foundation of the World." You can't get much older than that. His sacrifice at a precisely selected time in history was God's plan from The Beginning.
Helel, aka Lucifer, aka Satan, etc., was cast out of Heaven along with 1/3 of the angelic host because they rebelled against God; they began to inhabit this planet.
This group of fallen angels knew something of the plan of God, and before humans were ever created, they began to lay in place signs and "evidences" to deceive us and lead us astray from the truth. This was the real beginning of the Paganistic and Shamanistic religions.
God made a place and a way for us to live on this planet, and He set us upon it intending to use us to destroy the works of His would-be rival, whom He will cast into the Lake of Fire along with his followers both angelic and human.
In the meantime God welcomes all who seek Him. Now that the Lamb has been slain in the natural realm, He has become the sole mediator between the one and only real God and all of mankind.
Paganistic and Shamanistic religions are not the only deceptive religions out there. They were originated by spirits; other religions were originated by mankind.
may the Lord Jesus bless you
tal
twistedsketch said:I feel kind of sorry for them. They are bound by evil spirits, decieved into believing their false religion. The pagans I have met in my life were unfortunately going down the downward spiral. They were in an abusive relationship. Magic thrown at each other. Physical abuse, including one incident that resulted in a miscarraige. Bitterness, hostility. Total irresponsibility. And all this happened within three months of dating. The girl even claimed she was on Springer, and while I haven't seen that episode because I don't watch the show, she was screwed up enough that I'm inclined to believe it.
Tyrone24 said:You know, I have some pagan friends too, and they seem to be very nice and sensible people. I know that every religion probably has some very nice and some very mean members of it, yet, are many pagans that you know as nice and (this is a little mis-worded probably) knowledgable about their religion as you are?
notanordinarygirl said:That you believe in the same God I do, only you believe it's more than one and you have different ways of expressing your faith in Him (or to you, them). Then again, I pretty much believe that about any religion (except for the "plural God" part when the religion believes in only one God).
Yes, but this has little or no bearing on the validity of a religion.SimpleDevotion said:Yes, of course there are going to be members of Paganism, and any other religion, for that matter, who make a mess of their lives.
Again, you are right, but again, the morals and standards are not what make the religion valid.SimpleDevotion said:I believe, however, that the morals and standards of Paganism are higher than most Christians realize; much like Christianity, Paganism encourages its members to uphold kind and generous will. The individuals are the ones who sometimes fall short.
Say what you want about Paganism--call it false and sinful--but please realize the religion forbids acts of violence and abuse.
If you were the devil and wanted to deceive people, don't you think it would be smart to create deceptions that appear beautiful, desirable, and pleasant and that seem to have what it takes to make a person wise and discerning and powerful? (hopefully that sounds familiar....)SimpleDevotion said:If it turns out that Christianity is the correct religion, I cannot imagine that Paganism could have possibly been created by an evil such as the Christian devil.
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