Paedobaptism

[Floatingaxe]

Since you are going with the option #2 approach of the church, I really can't help you much.

Your favorite heretics introduced it into the church in the 1550's. Up until then, the Church did indeed and still does practice infant Baptism. And they do so on the clear teachings of the apostles. The apostles and the early church applied Scriptures. That you do not understand these Sciptures is probably more the point. You can lead a horse to water, you just can't make him drink.

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth.

Peace,
Cos

There is no apostolic teaching on infant baptism. Scripture is very clear: baptism is only for believers. They individually follow the command to do so. Babies cannot, and so are not, therefore, required.

 

[TheLivingWater]

Wow ...
The poor babys that got aborted !
According to you they will all go to hell for not being baptized ...

no comment

 

[Floatingaxe]

Yep. Babies do not go to hell. If baptism saves, then that is a new extra-biblical doctrine altogether...

 

[whateveristrue]

My non-denominational church teaches that baptism is only as outlined in Scripture: adult believer, and immersion.

Anything else is religion, and not Biblical.

Hi, I don't think your church is really non-denominational. It is Baptist.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Hi, I don't think your church is really non-denominational. It is Baptist.

No. Non-denominational. Please.

 

[hsilgne]

Wow ...
The poor babys that got aborted !
According to you they will all go to hell for not being baptized ...

no comment

Yep. Babies do not go to hell. If baptism saves, then that is a new extra-biblical doctrine altogether...

Hi... did you guys not see my post # 10 in this thread?

What church records?
It is not in Scripture. It is the believers' baptism only.

Yes, the church kept allot of records that many people choose not to research. As for scripture...

Matthew 28: 19 -20
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

Mark 10:14
When Jesus saw this he became indignant and said to them, "Let the children come to me; do not prevent them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

John 1:32

John3:3-5

John 3:22

John 4:1

Acts 8:36

Acts 10:47

Acts 22:16

Titus 3:5-6

Heb 10:22

2 Kings 5:14

Isaiah 44:3

Ezek 36: 25-27


...for starters.

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

Yep. Babies do not go to hell. If baptism saves, then that is a new extra-biblical doctrine altogether...

Extra-biblical like:

1Pe 3:21 Those flood waters were like baptism that now saves you. But baptism is more than just washing your body. It means turning to God with a clear conscience, because Jesus Christ was raised from death.

I am beginning to believe you are approaching Christianity as a gnostic. It is about having the right knowledge??? So you put requirements to "know" above all else. This is interesting since man is as dumb as a bag of hammers when choosing gods. Look at Jesus words in John 6:29. This is the work of God that you believe....not MAN'S!

For the early church, it was much more about faith than knowledge. It was a simple application of water to their children wth God's blessings. Much like what had happened to them as Jews that as babies they were circumcised.

Do you not see a pattern here? When God works, it is illogical to man. Death on a cross by God's Son. Noah and the Ark. Raising your staff to part water. Saying words like "Be calm" to a storm. Casting out demons. Yet baptism combines elements of all of these. God is at work.

When you begin one day to see the Church as the Glorious Body of Believers that is reigning now and will always reign by His Word - then you may want to join her in upholding the teachings of the Apostles and see how they were applied. Then it will be more important to you what God says in His Word than what you think your Bible says.

You didn't invent the wheel too, did ya?

Peace,
Cos

 

[Floatingaxe]

There is no Scripture whatsoever that instructs us to baptize babies or children. Period.

Baptism is for those who have consciously come to Christ in true repentance. That is something only one who has attained the age of reasoning can do. Once one is able to recognize that he is a sinner in need of a personal Saviour in Jesus Christ, and repents, he is commanded to be baptized. A baby cannot obey such a command, let alone understand that he is a sinner in need of a Saviour.

Babies we dedicate unto the Lord and WE promise to rear them in the fear and admonition of the Lord. WE teach. WE bring them to Jesus, out of our own obedience.WE disciple them under God, until such time as they can choose Christ, and choose baptism.

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

There is neither no denial of infant baptism by the Church until your family of heretics appeared until the 1500's - little late to say their right!

You are a gnostic who sides with heretics - repent!

I suppose you stand on Mark 16 as inspired text? Do you handle snakes, drink poison, and heal the sick? Wow, you are good. Did your baptism "take"? How do we know?

Jesus was speaking the Words of the Great Commission to the Church. I suggest at some point you join it. The Church has always used infant baptism. They never surrendered it to the gnostic heretics. Never did, never will.

You said baptism does not save? You deny Scripture on top of it all. What, you crossed out 1 Pet. 3:21 with your crayon highlighter?

You never said in so many words whether you hold to position #1 or #2 on the Church. I can see why. You want to say #1 but this is inconsistent with your position. So you really have no true and grounded understanding of the Church and its continuity. This is the heart of why you don't understand how the Church applies the life of its doctrines to its children.

Peace,
Cos

 

[Floatingaxe]

There is neither no denial of infant baptism by the Church until your family of heretics appeared until the 1500's - little late to say their right!

You are a gnostic who sides with heretics - repent!

I suppose you stand on Mark 16 as inspired text? Do you handle snakes, drink poison, and heal the sick? Wow, you are good. Did your baptism "take"? How do we know?

Jesus was speaking the Words of the Great Commission to the Church. I suggest at some point you join it. The Church has always used infant baptism. They never surrendered it to the gnostic heretics. Never did, never will.

You said baptism does not save? You deny Scripture on top of it all. What, you crossed out 1 Pet. 3:21 with your crayon highlighter?

You never said in so many words whether you hold to position #1 or #2 on the Church. I can see why. You want to say #1 but this is inconsistent with your position. So you really have no true and grounded understanding of the Church and its continuity. This is the heart of why you don't understand how the Church applies the life of its doctrines to its children.

Peace,
Cos

The Church has not always done infant baptism! The Catholic Church has, but not the Church that Jesus founded. If it isn't in Scripture, it is an extra-biblical tradition.

Religious rites are just that--religion, and devoid of spiritual value. Jesus is intolerant of religion. He wants our hearts in pure worship without all the trappings of tradition.

I am not a gnostic nor a heretic. If infant baptism was practiced by Paul and encouraged by Jesus Christ, then please point out the scriptures that say so.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Yes, the church kept allot of records that many people choose not to research. As for scripture...

Matthew 28: 19 -20
Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

Mark 10:14
When Jesus saw this he became indignant and said to them, "Let the children come to me; do not prevent them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

John 1:32

John3:3-5

John 3:22

John 4:1

Acts 8:36

Acts 10:47

Acts 22:16

Titus 3:5-6

Heb 10:22

2 Kings 5:14

Isaiah 44:3

Ezek 36: 25-27


...for starters.

Not ONE of those Sciptural passages teach infant baptism.

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

Floating Axe,

You do realize every heresy of the Church was also based on some Scripture? But it is in the mis-application and distortion that they are wrong. Yours is based on a false notion of the Church, that somehow it just fell out of the sky and misdirected until, gosh, the Anabaptists showed up to clarify things for you?

The Church is led by the Spirit and guided it in the full application of Scritpures. Until this happens, you are swimming on a plank in the great ocean of time, disconnected from the Church, and therefore, without a clue of what has been going on for 2,000 years.

Your Bible did not tell you to go to church today did it? Are you staying home until you find the exact verse, "Go to church on the first day of the week?" I hope not.

Peace,
Cos

 

[Floatingaxe]

Floating Axe,

You do realize every heresy of the Church was also based on some Scripture? But it is in the mis-application and distortion that they are wrong. Yours is based on a false notion of the Church, that somehow it just fell out of the sky and misdirected until, gosh, the Anabaptists showed up to clarify things for you?

The Church is led by the Spirit and guided it in the full application of Scritpures. Until this happens, you are swimming on a plank in the great ocean of time, disconnected from the Church, and therefore, without a clue of what has been going on for 2,000 years.

Your Bible did not tell you to go to church today did it? Are you staying home until you find the exact verse, "Go to church on the first day of the week?" I hope not.

Peace,
Cos

Extra-biblical teaching is religion.

Please point out what the Word of God teaches you on infant baptism. I would be interested to read it.

The Word of God is the sole authority on the matter.

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

Floating Axe,

Please do not take it personally that I am attacking a gnostic heresy at this point - not you. I believe in the Church as led by the Holy Spirit and we are to defend it against all heresies.

You are unwilling to believe in the Church as the continuous reign of Christ in His Word. You want to believe in the Word of God but refuse to see how those same teachings were lived in the Church from its early days forward.

And as you have already demonstrated, there is no verse that would appeal to such a gnostic position you are holding. You continue to hold on to your little plank and your own understanding of what you think the Bible says instead of applying the whole counsel of God.

Do you not see that this is what has fractured the Church today? Everyone reads the Bible in their own way and follows it with their understanding. This is the problem my friend. This breaks up the Apostolic teachings upon which the church was founded upon.

When you are ready to follow the whole counsel of God and apply its teachings you will indeed want to test your positions against what the early church did. I do not see any other way out of this for either one of us.

Most gnostics also reject the Sacrament of the Altar of having any saving purpose. Here Scripture is even more clear. Still the gnostics reject it. "Take, eat, this is My Body...."

Scriptures says to test the spirits to see if they are from God. One way is to see when the doctrine in the church was introduced and who did it. Those heretics that denied infant baptism did not appear until the 1500's. Church history shows this.

CF is full of people who swim on their self-ordained little planks. They all read the Bible and underline their favorite verses. It is like having a compass when someone is lost in the woods. Until they orient the compass to their location, they will probably remain lost. As the heretics have shown, it is not enough to just read the Bible. You must use it correctly. Only then will it direct you.

Peace,
Cos

 

[Floatingaxe]

You still have failed to provide Scriptural backing for your religious rite.

Everything must be backed by the Word of God or it is to be considered extraneous and superfluous.

All throughout the New Testament we repeatedly read, "As we read in the Scriptures," and, "As told in the Scriptures..." The Scriptures are constantly the reference for preaching and receiving truth.

1 Timothy 4:13
Until I get there, focus on reading the Scriptures to the church, encouraging the believers, and teaching them.

2 Timothy 3:15
You have been taught the holy Scriptures from childhood, and they have given you the wisdom to receive the salvation that comes by trusting in Christ Jesus.

James 2:8
Yes indeed, it is good when you obey the royal law as found in the Scriptures...

James 2:23
And so it happened just as the Scriptures say...

James 4:5
What do you think the Scriptures mean when they say that...

James 4:6
But he gives us even more grace to stand against such evil desires. As the Scriptures say...

1 Peter 1:16
For the Scriptures say...

1 Peter 1:24
As the Scriptures say...

1 Peter 2:6
As the Scriptures say...

And most importantly...

2 Timothy 3:16...
All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right.

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

The early church did have these teachings and the Apostles to guide them. And they did baptize infants. Your heresy did not appear until the 1500's.

Swim on your little plank.

You may have the compass. You still have to learn to use it.

You have shown that gnositicism is alive and well. It is like trying to prove to an Atheist that there is a God. A predertimened set of beliefs is hard to overcome in either case. I was hoping for at least some dialogue but you are unwilling.

Done all I could. Happy swimming.

 

[Floatingaxe]

The early church did have these teachings and the Apostles to guide them. And they did baptize infants. Your heresy did not appear until the 1500's.

Swim on your little plank.

You may have the compass. You still have to learn to use it.

You have shown that gnositicism is alive and well. It is like trying to prove to an Atheist that there is a God. A predertimened set of beliefs is hard to overcome in either case. I was hoping for at least some dialogue but you are unwilling.

Done all I could. Happy swimming.

You are rude. Please stop.

You cannot show me any Scripture because THERE IS NONE!

The apostles would never teach something that was never spoken of by Scripture, or by epistle authors--Paul, Peter or John.

Extra-biblical doctrine carries a stiff penalty. We are commanded against adding to Scripture. I do believe the early church that you think is the only church has made a grave error, motivated by greed. It is a form of early Catholic indulgences, and a way of keeping people in the church by telling them that if you baptize your baby, it will not go to hell... because the middle ages had a very high infant mortality rate. Make up a doctrine, a feel-good doctrine that will line the waning coffers!


There is no possible way you can prove that infant baptism is valid.

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

Where did you get the idea that I was talking about the Catholic Church? Middle Ages?

I am talking about the early church from 100-200 AD. I do not think the church was doing anything not taught by the Apostles. They were only one or two generations removed. Infant baptism was not an innovation to this church. Denial of infant baptism was and would not appear till the 1500's.

I never said they did it apart from Scriptures. They did it on the full counsel of God's Word.

But since you see no valid testimony of the Early Church in 100 AD and their use of Scripture, what would it take to convince you in your gnostic approach to the Scriptures?

If the person using the compass is still lost, it is not the fault of the compass. It is that the person does not know how to use it.

You probably deny the efficacy of the Lord's Supper too. If you grasped one, it would help you understand the other sacrament as well. Gnostics rarely deny one without also denying the other.

When will you leave your plank theory and accept the continuity of the Church of Jesus Christ and that its testimony bears important witness to seeing how its Apostolic teachings were applied to the life of its people? Satisfy me without another stiff arm. Show me some interest in Christian dialogue. This is important stuff here.

Clearly state your position of the Church as #1 or #2. Then reconcile your position. Fair enough?

You can show me all the Scriptures you want for believer's baptism. They do not speak against infant baptism nor did the Church ever apply them in such manner.

Show me your integrity in this issue.

Peace,
Cos

 

[Floatingaxe]

According to John MacArthur,

'German theologian, Schleiermacher, wrote, "All traces of infant baptism which have been asserted to be found in the New Testament, must first be inserted there." He’s right. The host of German and front rank "Theologs" and scholars of the Church of England—the Church of England, the Anglican Church, which believes in infant baptism—a host of their scholars have united to affirm not only the absence of infant baptism from the New Testament, but from apostolic and post-apostolic times. It isn’t in the New Testament and it didn’t exist in the earliest church. They believe it arose around the 2nd or 3rd century.
A Lutheran professor, Kurt Aland, after intensive study of infant baptism, says, "There is no definite proof of the practice until after the 3rd century," and he says, "This cannot be contested." '


There's continuity all shot to blazes!

 

[TheCosmicGospel]

"With regard to infant baptism it is proved by history that its practise was geeral in the second century."

2nd century, what is that, 100 AD and beyond????

"Origen quotes it as a general custom while Tertullian testifies to its universal prevalence."

So the church, closest to the original Apostles did indeed practice infant baptism.
Nice try, mate.

Peace,
Cos