Pacifism Question

[Michael Snow]

Here is a new blog post on a problem we all face with regards to Christians and war. There is a new graphic at the end. If people share this and get it in circulation, the graphic will begin showing up when people search for images of Spurgeon quotes. Cap’n Kidd & His Gospel Coalition Mates

 

[Michael Snow]

But neither are true Christians pacifists. They are indeed warriors for God, but they do not fight with the weapons of this world, but instead use the spiritual weapons of God.

Yes, warriors of God, indeed. And 'pacifism,' though often mindlessly confused with it, has no relation to the word 'passive.'

The word 'pacifism' is a modern word, (coming from 'pacific'...peaceful) coined around the turn of the 20th Century by a somewhat unsavory chap who began as a Christian and ended up an individualist. But the word in its basic meaning as generally used is simply the rejection of participation in war (via the sword; noncombatant participation is another issue).

Pacifist has become the most common word for those who refuse to go off to war. (I doubt many of this generation even know the term "conscientious objector" any more.) And there are Mennonites who use the word. John Howard Yoder in the beginning paragraph of the Preface to 'Politics...' writes "...Christian theology has set aside the pacifist implications of the New Testament."

And, of course, Yoder wrote a whole book on "The Varieties of Religious Pacifism" in which he carefully distinguished between Christian and non-Christian varieties, thus the title of my book 'Christian Pacifism...'
Not growing up in Mennonite or other peace church circles, that was the word that was most familiar.

 

[OwainK]

OK...first of all, this is my first post so greetings to everyone!!

I was born and raised a Southern Baptist, I came to know Christ as a Southern Baptist, I attend a Southern Baptist church currently, I have a Biblical Studies degree from a Baptist college and most of my theology is Baptist...I bring that up because for about a year I have found what seems to be discrepancies in the way I have always been taught to live compared to what Jesus commanded. Recently I found a podcast from a Brethren In Christ church and am floored at the focus on Christ and love. The last few sermons I listened to moved me close to tears because the words resonated with my heart. Evidently it is possible to have traditional theology (i.e. abortion, homosexuality...etc., etc.) and still love people.

Anyway, the issue I am having is on pacifism. I served 11 years in the military, between the Marine Corps and Army. I never truly harbored hate against anyone I had to fight and did not specifically enjoy firing my weapon at another human being but I was ok with it because I was defending my brothers and sisters in uniform. Even now I seek peace with everyone and do not condone violence except as a last resort in defense of persons. In all honesty I would have a hard time not defending my family or those who cannot defend themselves. Is this way of thinking allowed within the Anabaptist way of thought? What is meant by pacifist?

Thanks for your time!

God Bless!!

First thing, you are a very good and a very honourable person for serving in the military for so long. That you did 11 years, being in both the Marines and the Army, fighting for your country and for your people. It's something to be proud of and you are a very good person for doing that. I don't know how many other people appreciate soldiers for what they do for us today, but I value them VERY greatly and it's been a fantastic thing that you have been doing it and for so long

I think that mentality and way of thinking which you have would be ok. I don't see why not. I think the term "pacifist" has been taken over and exaggerated by the hippies. Do I think the Anabaptists think of wars in the same way that hippies think of war/violence/self defence? NO

I think you would be ok I once again congratulate you for serving your country

 

[SteveIndy]

I, too, was in the military and served two full years in Vietnam during the Tet Offensive before coming to Christ. For the next 35 years, I struggled with the Sermon on the Mount and received only one sided answers from the Baptist Church. A degree in Theology did not help. The general consensus since the time of Constantine and Augustine is that it is okay to kill your enemies as long as you do it in concert with many others so that the guilt is thinned out amongst the many. It was only after I through out the commentaries and allowed the Holy Spirit to speak directly and to take our Lord's words at face value that I had no other resort than to conclude with the Anabaptist that killing another human being for any reason is against the Gospel. There are two main problems with Christians today, 1) nonresistance to evil is totally contrary to what we suppose and feel; it just doesn't make sense. 2) The Old Testament appears to be counterproductive to any research on the matter. Our nature is to fight. When I visit the VA Hospital I am amazed at the number of warnings on the walls pleading with wartime vets not to commit suicide. What I have discovered is that nonresistance to evil is not contrary to our nature but it is the nature of heaven. The only way a person can cope with killing another person is to be hardened by constant propaganda trying to convince the vet that he did the right thing. As far as the O.T. is concerned we have to, first of all, admit that the God of both Testaments is the same God. So, if we cannot make the two sides agree then it is us that is the problem and not God. We have to admit that we don't understand how the O.T. is so involved in war and the N.T. is involved in peace. But, it is a fact that the N.T. is opposed to killing and it is very well documented. I have thoroughly researched this and anyone who comes to the subject with an unbiased mind void of presuppositions and conclusions will arrive at the same place I have. Once the advice of men, patriots, politicians, preachers, and theologians are kicked out all the pieces of the puzzle will fit.

 

[Bollweevil]

I, too, was in the military and served two full years in Vietnam during the Tet Offensive before coming to Christ. For the next 35 years, I struggled with the Sermon on the Mount and received only one sided answers from the Baptist Church. A degree in Theology did not help. The general consensus since the time of Constantine and Augustine is that it is okay to kill your enemies as long as you do it in concert with many others so that the guilt is thinned out amongst the many. It was only after I through out the commentaries and allowed the Holy Spirit to speak directly and to take our Lord's words at face value that I had no other resort than to conclude with the Anabaptist that killing another human being for any reason is against the Gospel. There are two main problems with Christians today, 1) nonresistance to evil is totally contrary to what we suppose and feel; it just doesn't make sense. 2) The Old Testament appears to be counterproductive to any research on the matter. Our nature is to fight. When I visit the VA Hospital I am amazed at the number of warnings on the walls pleading with wartime vets not to commit suicide. What I have discovered is that nonresistance to evil is not contrary to our nature but it is the nature of heaven. The only way a person can cope with killing another person is to be hardened by constant propaganda trying to convince the vet that he did the right thing. As far as the O.T. is concerned we have to, first of all, admit that the God of both Testaments is the same God. So, if we cannot make the two sides agree then it is us that is the problem and not God. We have to admit that we don't understand how the O.T. is so involved in war and the N.T. is involved in peace. But, it is a fact that the N.T. is opposed to killing and it is very well documented. I have thoroughly researched this and anyone who comes to the subject with an unbiased mind void of presuppositions and conclusions will arrive at the same place I have. Once the advice of men, patriots, politicians, preachers, and theologians are kicked out all the pieces of the puzzle will fit.

Thank you for your words. It is encouraging to hear a similar story as mine. I have not served in the military yet knew at one time it was completely justifiable for a Christian to kill in certain situations. Once I began studying the issue about 15 years ago with this prejudice and biased I discovered I was wrong. I had to accept what God's word through Christ was telling us. It was clear, unconditional love and peace. I didn't and still don't like this principle of Jesus. I want to be able to extend retribution; yet my first devotion is to God and I can now understand what He did for all of us when we were His enemy and I want to extend that love and forgiveness to all, no matter what evil they do. Thank you for your words.

 

[Bollweevil]

Yes, warriors of God, indeed. And 'pacifism,' though often mindlessly confused with it, has no relation to the word 'passive.'

The word 'pacifism' is a modern word, (coming from 'pacific'...peaceful) coined around the turn of the 20th Century by a somewhat unsavory chap who began as a Christian and ended up an individualist. But the word in its basic meaning as generally used is simply the rejection of participation in war (via the sword; noncombatant participation is another issue).

Pacifist has become the most common word for those who refuse to go off to war. (I doubt many of this generation even know the term "conscientious objector" any more.) And there are Mennonites who use the word. John Howard Yoder in the beginning paragraph of the Preface to 'Politics...' writes "...Christian theology has set aside the pacifist implications of the New Testament."

And, of course, Yoder wrote a whole book on "The Varieties of Religious Pacifism" in which he carefully distinguished between Christian and non-Christian varieties, thus the title of my book 'Christian Pacifism...'
Not growing up in Mennonite or other peace church circles, that was the word that was most familiar.

Michael, we crossed paths a few years ago. I think you posted on a blog of mine on nonviolence and were kind enough to send me an electronic copy of your book, thank you again. I see you pop up every now and then. I'm constantly looking for information (blogs, articles, books, etc) on Christian nonviolence, pro and con. You seem to be more in the know, if you come across any obscure or hard to find books, articles, blogs I'd loved to hear about them. I'm familiar with most all the books and authors that pop up when the key words are typed into google or amazon (nonviolence, pacifism, non resistance, etc) If it's convenient and you find something of interest I'd appreciate a link. Thanks again. ranceadams @ g mail . com

 

[Caretaker]

First thing, you are a very good and a very honourable person for serving in the military for so long. That you did 11 years, being in both the Marines and the Army, fighting for your country and for your people. It's something to be proud of and you are a very good person for doing that. I don't know how many other people appreciate soldiers for what they do for us today, but I value them VERY greatly and it's been a fantastic thing that you have been doing it and for so long

I think that mentality and way of thinking which you have would be ok. I don't see why not. I think the term "pacifist" has been taken over and exaggerated by the hippies. Do I think the Anabaptists think of wars in the same way that hippies think of war/violence/self defence? NO

I think you would be ok I once again congratulate you for serving your country

"Serving your country"? Aren't we first to serve God? How is it possible to serve God while violating the commandments of his Son?

 

[SteveIndy]

"Serving your country"? Aren't we first to serve God? How is it possible to serve God while violating the commandments of his Son?

I can understand a person who is young and has been indoctrinated into the practice of congratulating those who have done the unthinkable because they have not had to do it themselves, they have been trained to think this way. They never stop to consider that they are complicit in all the bloodshed that has taken place and that they are just as guilty as the person who pulls the trigger or drops the bomb. Because of their consent, their names are written on every bullet, yet they feel none of the remorse or suffer none of the sleepless nights, but because of their consent they too will stand before the Great Judge and have to answer for the blood of their brother Abel. I forgive them because they are ignorant, but their nonresistance means nothing when their heart is still corrupt, they just haven't thought through those words. They are confused, very confused.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Once the advice of men, patriots, politicians, preachers, and theologians are kicked out all the pieces of the puzzle will fit.

Yes, that's required... a start, in YHWH'S Timing ...

.... Aren't we first to serve God?...

Amein. HalleluYAH!

 

[Jesuscentered]

First thing, you are a very good and a very honourable person for serving in the military for so long. That you did 11 years, being in both the Marines and the Army, fighting for your country and for your people. It's something to be proud of and you are a very good person for doing that. I don't know how many other people appreciate soldiers for what they do for us today, but I value them VERY greatly and it's been a fantastic thing that you have been doing it and for so long

I think that mentality and way of thinking which you have would be ok. I don't see why not. I think the term "pacifist" has been taken over and exaggerated by the hippies. Do I think the Anabaptists think of wars in the same way that hippies think of war/violence/self defence? NO

I think you would be ok I once again congratulate you for serving your country

Hello. Thank you for your post, but I'd like to clarify the Anabaptist view regarding pacifism. I think we are often mischaracterized (or disregarded quickly as quacks) before we're ever given a chance to explain what we believe, or why we believe it. So if you'll please grant me the opportunity to explain, I'd humbly appreciate it.

The Anabaptist belief regarding nonviolence stems completely from Jesus' teachings (Contrary to popular belief... it wasn't from the "hippies". Although, I'm sure that many of them would love to believe that they are the catalyst for a pacifist movement). So then why do we believe what we believe? There are several verses in the Bible that point us in this direction. So I'll do my best to explain.

First, (and really, I needn't go beyond this, but I will) Jesus tells us that He brings us a new commandment... to love our enemies as we love ourselves. But why? What has changed? Well, clearly several things change after his death, but that is a different discussion, so I will keep to the topic. So how then do we love our enemies? Well, Jesus tells us exactly how, and it's not easy. He tells us to turn the other cheek... but more importantly, he tells us right after that, "Do not resist an evil person." That is a HUGE statement to make and it is crystal clear. But somehow, that part of it usually gets left out of the story. He also tells us, "If he asks for your shirt, give him your coat also." I think a lot of Christians look at this and think, "Well... maybe in a perfect world." But Jesus certainly didn't live in a perfect world. What if He actually meant what He said? And where is our faith if we disregard it? Can we truly believe?

Second, when Pilate asks Jesus why He doesn't just release himself and take his throne (if he is king), Jesus replies, "This kingdom is not of this world. If it was, my disciples would fight for me." It was never Jesus' intention that we should hold power over others in order to defend Him (Matthew 20:25-28). In fact, Jesus tells us to do the exact opposite. We are called to be servants, not hold positions of power over people. People often say, "Then why did Jesus tell his disciples to buy swords?" The answer to this question is in the context of what is written in the Gospels. When they did buy swords, why were two swords enough? What did they do right after they bought the swords? Jesus knew he had to be arrested, and the swords were part of the plan to get arrested. And even if you don't believe that... then you at least have to believe that Jesus never intended his disciples to actually use the swords, because He tells Peter, "Don't even allow this... For those who live by the sword will die by the sword" when Peter tried to cut the guard's ear off trying to defend Jesus.

Third, Paul tells us that our battles are not physical, but spiritual instead. Why does he go through so much trouble to redefine what a Christian warrior looks like? He alters every aspect of what a warrior for Christ looks like and fundamentally is. And what is now our weapon, if not the Bible? Notice that the sword has been replaced.

Four, when Jesus' disciples wanted to burn the Samaritans alive for snubbing Jesus, what was Jesus' response to them? He rebuked them by saying, "You do not know what spirit you are of... for the Son of Man did not come to destroy the lives of men, but to save them."

Five, Jesus tells us not to fear what can be done to our body, but fear what can be done to our soul instead. Everything Jesus tells us to do requires faith and humility. It requires sacrifice and strength. Pacifism is NOT weakness. If anything, it takes more guts and strength of character to do what Jesus asks of us than anything else in this world. It goes against our human nature. And why does He ask it of us? The answer is simple... because we are to represent Him and what He did for in this world. It is one of the many ways we witness to the world. It is one of the many ways that we show our faith to Him. It's one of the many ways we sacrifice and put others first. It's one of the many ways we love Jesus and others.

If we truly desire to be Christian and to follow Christ, then we cannot simply put His teachings on a shelf somewhere and say, "Yeah, that would be nice in a perfect world... BUT..." We must be proactive and at least believe in and try to follow His commandments. Otherwise... who are we really following, and where is our faith? Blessed are the Peacemakers, for they shall inherit the Kingdom of God.

 

[SteveIndy]

What is meant by pacifist?

I too was in the military and spent two years in Vietnam and was very patriotic. I did not come from a Christian background and only received Christ after much personal conflict. My wife and I received Christ at the same time alone in our living room with no indoctrination. I only give this information to that you will know that we were not part of any group feeding us with their particular strain of Christianity, that was 42 years ago. The next few years I devoured the mysterious Book and had many questions which pastors answered by regurgitated their denominational spin, and some could or would not answer at all. The part that gave me the most problems was The Sermon on the Mount specifically Matthew 5:39. The Anabaptist were the only ones who were able to complete the puzzle along with a study of Primitive Church history and the Radical Reformation.

I hear people use the term pacifism a lot to refer to those who agree with the Anabaptist but the term is not the best one to use. The term "nonresistance" is a better term. Pacifism can define those who use resistance but of a non-violent kind where a non-resistant Christian would not resist an evil person as Jesus exemplified during His life and instructed His Apostles in Matthew 5:39 "Do not resist and evil person." Gandhi, Hippies, and many others used pacifism as a form of resistance and weapon in their struggle against the government and society. These people are citizens of this world and therefore use the resources of this world to fight evil and their supposed enemies. Christians should be different. We are citizens of another Kingdom with a totally different constitution and King. Our loyalty is to that King and we obey His orders. Those orders are spelled out in the Matthew 5,6, and 7 and He says if you love Me then obey Me. There is much more but this is basically the difference between pacifism and non-resistance which are commonly confused.

 

[NeedyFollower]

OK...first of all, this is my first post so greetings to everyone!!

I was born and raised a Southern Baptist, I came to know Christ as a Southern Baptist, I attend a Southern Baptist church currently, I have a Biblical Studies degree from a Baptist college and most of my theology is Baptist...I bring that up because for about a year I have found what seems to be discrepancies in the way I have always been taught to live compared to what Jesus commanded. Recently I found a podcast from a Brethren In Christ church and am floored at the focus on Christ and love. The last few sermons I listened to moved me close to tears because the words resonated with my heart. Evidently it is possible to have traditional theology (i.e. abortion, homosexuality...etc., etc.) and still love people.

Anyway, the issue I am having is on pacifism. I served 11 years in the military, between the Marine Corps and Army. I never truly harbored hate against anyone I had to fight and did not specifically enjoy firing my weapon at another human being but I was ok with it because I was defending my brothers and sisters in uniform. Even now I seek peace with everyone and do not condone violence except as a last resort in defense of persons. In all honesty I would have a hard time not defending my family or those who cannot defend themselves. Is this way of thinking allowed within the Anabaptist way of thought? What is meant by pacifist?

Thanks for your time!

God Bless!!

As a former southern baptist , this is my understanding. It is based both on scripture and the reality of my conversion ..in others words ..in MY truth. My truth is " I have been an enemy of God my whole life although I did not consider myself so ...I grew up in church but was wicked . ( I would have been considered a normal American Guy . ) I was in the US AirForce ..not to serve my country nor to serve Jesus Christ ( which are NOT the same ) ...Long Story short , when I was an enemy of God , what was His reaction ? He came and found me and said " I choose you . " ...but I am a wicked sinful man ..stay away ..for all practical purposes ..I was a spiritual leper ... How unfair ...why would anyone Holy have anything to do with me ???? I can understand God loving a holy person ..but me ?? But then I am exactly who Jesus came for ....How can I treat my enemies differently that God treated me ? I owe Him everything though I can not pay anything . I am not to judge anyone else whether they feel compelled to go to war , etc. ..just remember , in truth ..you war for man and their agenda unless their agenda is Jesus Christ ..that is why Paul says not to get entangled with the affairs of this life ...and not to be unequally yoked with unbelievers ..you will end up not having the same agenda . There are plenty of atheist that due to pride and nationalism will do a fine job defending something temporal like a country . Ask the Lord if these things be so .

 

[Bollweevil]

Hello. Thank you for your post, but I'd like to clarify the Anabaptist view regarding pacifism. I think we are often mischaracterized (or disregarded quickly as quacks) before we're ever given a chance to explain what we believe, or why we believe it. So if you'll please grant me the opportunity to explain, I'd humbly appreciate it.

The Anabaptist belief regarding nonviolence stems completely from Jesus' teachings (Contrary to popular belief... it wasn't from the "hippies". Although, I'm sure that many of them would love to believe that they are the catalyst for a pacifist movement). So then why do we believe what we believe? There are several verses in the Bible that point us in this direction. So I'll do my best to explain.

First, (and really, I needn't go beyond this, but I will) Jesus tells us that He brings us a new commandment... to love our enemies as we love ourselves. But why? What has changed? Well, clearly several things change after his death, but that is a different discussion, so I will keep to the topic. So how then do we love our enemies? Well, Jesus tells us exactly how, and it's not easy. He tells us to turn the other cheek... but more importantly, he tells us right after that, "Do not resist an evil person." That is a HUGE statement to make and it is crystal clear. But somehow, that part of it usually gets left out of the story. He also tells us, "If he asks for your shirt, give him your coat also." I think a lot of Christians look at this and think, "Well... maybe in a perfect world." But Jesus certainly didn't live in a perfect world. What if He actually meant what He said? And where is our faith if we disregard it? Can we truly believe?

Second, when Pilate asks Jesus why He doesn't just release himself and take his throne (if he is king), Jesus replies, "This kingdom is not of this world. If it was, my disciples would fight for me." It was never Jesus' intention that we should hold power over others in order to defend Him (Matthew 20:25-28). In fact, Jesus tells us to do the exact opposite. We are called to be servants, not hold positions of power over people. People often say, "Then why did Jesus tell his disciples to buy swords?" The answer to this question is in the context of what is written in the Gospels. When they did buy swords, why were two swords enough? What did they do right after they bought the swords? Jesus knew he had to be arrested, and the swords were part of the plan to get arrested. And even if you don't believe that... then you at least have to believe that Jesus never intended his disciples to actually use the swords, because He tells Peter, "Don't even allow this... For those who live by the sword will die by the sword" when Peter tried to cut the guard's ear off trying to defend Jesus.

Third, Paul tells us that our battles are not physical, but spiritual instead. Why does he go through so much trouble to redefine what a Christian warrior looks like? He alters every aspect of what a warrior for Christ looks like and fundamentally is. And what is now our weapon, if not the Bible? Notice that the sword has been replaced.

Four, when Jesus' disciples wanted to burn the Samaritans alive for snubbing Jesus, what was Jesus' response to them? He rebuked them by saying, "You do not know what spirit you are of... for the Son of Man did not come to destroy the lives of men, but to save them."

Five, Jesus tells us not to fear what can be done to our body, but fear what can be done to our soul instead. Everything Jesus tells us to do requires faith and humility. It requires sacrifice and strength. Pacifism is NOT weakness. If anything, it takes more guts and strength of character to do what Jesus asks of us than anything else in this world. It goes against our human nature. And why does He ask it of us? The answer is simple... because we are to represent Him and what He did for in this world. It is one of the many ways we witness to the world. It is one of the many ways that we show our faith to Him. It's one of the many ways we sacrifice and put others first. It's one of the many ways we love Jesus and others.

If we truly desire to be Christian and to follow Christ, then we cannot simply put His teachings on a shelf somewhere and say, "Yeah, that would be nice in a perfect world... BUT..." We must be proactive and at least believe in and try to follow His commandments. Otherwise... who are we really following, and where is our faith? Blessed are the Peacemakers, for they shall inherit the Kingdom of God.

Very well put. Good points and obviously many more that could be added. Thanks for your response. I don't identify with Anabaptists; however concerning this issue I believe the same. I simply follow the principles of Jesus. Very hard to do at times which is why so many people that claim to follow Christ can not accept this principle of absolute non resistance/ non violence.

 

[NeedyFollower]

I can understand a person who is young and has been indoctrinated into the practice of congratulating those who have done the unthinkable because they have not had to do it themselves, they have been trained to think this way. They never stop to consider that they are complicit in all the bloodshed that has taken place and that they are just as guilty as the person who pulls the trigger or drops the bomb. Because of their consent, their names are written on every bullet, yet they feel none of the remorse or suffer none of the sleepless nights, but because of their consent they too will stand before the Great Judge and have to answer for the blood of their brother Abel. I forgive them because they are ignorant, but their nonresistance means nothing when their heart is still corrupt, they just haven't thought through those words. They are confused, very confused.

This is interesting in that it also goes long the words of Jesus who said to the pharisees , you who build the sepulchers of the prophets say , if we had lived in the days of our fathers , etc. By your words you testify that you are the sons of those who killed them ..I am paraphrasing but I hope my understanding is correct ...If we in our heart belong to "our biology" , our heritage , our country , then we are guilty of all the sins committed by " our fathers " ..That is why I believe we are to receive a new heart whereby we are strangers and pilgrims whose citizenship is in heaven ..not condemning anyone or judging anyone who has been placed in a position through ignorance to " defend their country " through the taking of lives . Every country is temporal and most often conceived by bloodshed and theft , not unlike Naoboths vineyard which Jezebel and Ahab stole. I also was in the military but not in order to serve Jesus Christ .. I did meet professing Christians while in the service ( during peacetime ) but it is not my place to say whether they were there by God's command ..I can only judge myself and know that I was not. I do think the associating of nations as " christian " and non christian has done great harm to the truth. To join the holy and unholy ..the temporal and the eternal ....It makes it worse to use the name of Christ Jesus of that union in my opinion ...others have associated actions of nations as what following Jesus means . We are instructed not to be yoked together with unbelievers ( as unbelievers goals and motives are not Jesus Christ . ) Paul also told timothy not to get involved with "civilian affairs " or things of this world .

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

QUOTE="TheGoodLife, post: 66585088"]Anyway, the issue I am having is on pacifism. I served 11 years in the military, between the Marine Corps and Army. I never truly harbored hate against anyone I had to fight and did not specifically enjoy firing my weapon at another human being but I was ok with it because I was defending my brothers and sisters in uniform.[/QUOTE
Not a good enough nor over-riding (God's Word) reason to be ok with killing, no.

Is this way of thinking allowed within the Anabaptist way of thought?

So, as I understand it usually, no.

 

[keembo]

What the anabaptists or brethren post regarding non violence is very scriptural. I am beginning to find that the real reformation, instead of taking place in the early 1500's with Luther, Zwingli and Calvin as some of the mentors, most likely took place at the time of Constantine. This was when violence became condoned in the "believing" populace. Prior to that, it appears through writings of Tertullian, Origin, Justin the Martyr, etc that there was no recorded case of a "Christian" taking the life of another human with violence. The early church forbade joining the military, because that required both an obligation to take life and also a requirement to pray to Roman gods before entering battle. Because Jesus' Kingdom was "not of this world," the early believers didn't want to put "worldly or fleshy" thinking into the earthly realm and think it was OK. Jesus had commanded them to "love thine enemy, pray for those who persecute you and do good to those who hate you." That didn't work if one was in the military and fighting for a fleshy earthly government. I feel that too much emphasis was given to Romans 13 and Paul's comments regarding obedience to government and not enough emphasis on the red print given by the Son of God, especially in the Sermon on the Mount. God's blessings to you all.

 

[NeedyFollower]

What the anabaptists or brethren post regarding non violence is very scriptural. I am beginning to find that the real reformation, instead of taking place in the early 1500's with Luther, Zwingli and Calvin as some of the mentors, most likely took place at the time of Constantine. This was when violence became condoned in the "believing" populace. Prior to that, it appears through writings of Tertullian, Origin, Justin the Martyr, etc that there was no recorded case of a "Christian" taking the life of another human with violence. The early church forbade joining the military, because that required both an obligation to take life and also a requirement to pray to Roman gods before entering battle. Because Jesus' Kingdom was "not of this world," the early believers didn't want to put "worldly or fleshy" thinking into the earthly realm and think it was OK. Jesus had commanded them to "love thine enemy, pray for those who persecute you and do good to those who hate you." That didn't work if one was in the military and fighting for a fleshy earthly government. I feel that too much emphasis was given to Romans 13 and Paul's comments regarding obedience to government and not enough emphasis on the red print given by the Son of God, especially in the Sermon on the Mount. God's blessings to you all.

Yes ..I also believe that is when the holy and the unholy were joined. The comments regarding obeying earthly governments were I believe correct because there was also a codicil but if you suffer for righteousness sake ..in other words if the government requires you to do something against the truth , you must obey the truth though you be persecuted for it ....the problem is christians have joined God and country ..it often starts gradeschool ( private and "christian curriculum in )homeschools, in cubscouts / boyscouts ( many sponsored by "churches" ) ....It has been taken for granted that if any creed mentions God, it must be godly and acceptable ...of course this is not true ..Satan believes in God as did Cain . Boy scouts is about Boy Scouts ..not Christ ..Cubscouts is about Cubscouts ..not about Christ ...Huge deception going on actually and grievously .

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

.the problem is christians have joined God and country

No, we haven't.

 

[Michael Snow]

No, we haven't.

That was not a fair response to NeedyFollower (".the problem is christians have joined God and country"). He was not talking about you, or about Anabaptists (though some have). It is a general statement that reflects the condition of many American Christians.

And a bigger problem is that there are few faithful witnesses on this subject. We share in forums like this but few share outside our comfortable boundaries. Take for example the faithful witness of an evangelical hero of the faith, Charles Spurgeon. His works have sold millions of copies but few have ever had the chance to see his words on war and Christians. Charles Spurgeon: On War and Christians

Many pacifists are shell shocked and not willing to put their head outside the foxhole.

When my book on pacifism was first published, I asked the manager (a Mennonite) of the local Christian radio station if he would care to do an interview on it for a regular local program he did. His response was that such 'generates more heat than light.' That was a 'no.'

Few are willing to circulate information on such resources as the Spurgeon quotes. There are many evangelical Christians who would be open to considering such, but few will ever know about these faithful witnesses.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

.... in other words if the government requires you to do something against the truth , you must obey the truth though you be persecuted for it ....

i.e. NOT join, NOT support, NOT go along with..... wickedness or things to disobey God against conscience