Pacifism Question

[TheGoodLife]

OK...first of all, this is my first post so greetings to everyone!!

I was born and raised a Southern Baptist, I came to know Christ as a Southern Baptist, I attend a Southern Baptist church currently, I have a Biblical Studies degree from a Baptist college and most of my theology is Baptist...I bring that up because for about a year I have found what seems to be discrepancies in the way I have always been taught to live compared to what Jesus commanded. Recently I found a podcast from a Brethren In Christ church and am floored at the focus on Christ and love. The last few sermons I listened to moved me close to tears because the words resonated with my heart. Evidently it is possible to have traditional theology (i.e. abortion, homosexuality...etc., etc.) and still love people.

Anyway, the issue I am having is on pacifism. I served 11 years in the military, between the Marine Corps and Army. I never truly harbored hate against anyone I had to fight and did not specifically enjoy firing my weapon at another human being but I was ok with it because I was defending my brothers and sisters in uniform. Even now I seek peace with everyone and do not condone violence except as a last resort in defense of persons. In all honesty I would have a hard time not defending my family or those who cannot defend themselves. Is this way of thinking allowed within the Anabaptist way of thought? What is meant by pacifist?

Thanks for your time!

God Bless!!

 

[ValleyGal]

I don't know about other denominations, but the Mennonite Brethren are pacifists, meaning non-violent resistance. We refuse to use violence to solve problems, even war. We start from a place where we create conditions that pre-empt violent conditions in all our relationships. We seek peaceful methods of managing conflicts. We find peaceful means of helping those who are oppressed. We believe we are called to be peacemakers, not makers of war. Romans 12:18 says "If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone." This means everyone from our immediate family all the way to the war-torn east....

 

[Bollweevil]

Many years ago I found what I had been taught growing up was not consistent with the principles of Jesus. This issue will challenge your faith, be difficult to accept, and good study and meditation are a necessity to reason to others your belief. I don't believe Jesus taught us to be pacifist, this implies doing nothing. One of many things is our Spiritual Sword 'Jesus' also known as 'The Word'. Use Jesus' principles by speaking truth confidently and firmly to try to battle evil. Do something (learn what can be done, we aren't taught this) other than evil, exhibit love. Our heart matters much to God as you elluded to regarding your heart; He also cares what our fruits are.

Several books I highly recommend you read: JESUS FOR PRESIDENT, Shane Claiborne;

THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS WITHIN ME, Leo Tolstoy; WHAT I BELIEVE, Leo Tolstoy,

MYTH-OF A CHRISTIAN NATION & MYTH-OF A CHRISTIAN RELIGION (2 books), Gregory Boyd;

THE RADICAL QUESTION & RADICAL TOGETHER & RADICAL TAKING BACK YOUR FAITH (3 books), David Platt;

FIGHT, Andrew Rillera, Preston Sprinkle;

CHRISTIAN PACIFISM, Michael Snow;

A FAITH NOT WORTH FIGHTING FOR, Tripp York, Justin Barringer;

(also a few writings of Adin Ballou, not sure about the spelling)

WHO IS MY ENEMY?:QUESTIONS AMERICAN CHRISTIANS MUST FACE ABOUT ISLAM AND THEMSELVES, can't remember the author.

There are probably many more good books, these are the ones I'm familiar with.

 

[keembo]

This is an interesting topic. I was much the same as you for most of my life, but after actually reading scripture, and wanting to follow it, I find it rather hard now to be a Christian without being a pacifist. I guess that it dawned on me that Jesus didn't ask people their opinions, but rather he gave instructions and what he wants is obedience. When he says to love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you and bless them, I find that it doesn't leave much wiggle room for anything else. Patriotism doesn't exist in Jesus' teachings except as a form of idol worship. Nowhere in OT or NT is anything mentioned about loving countries. OT required oaths and you were to "love your neighbor and hate your enemy." This was law. Jesus was clear and stated that does not any longer apply. He said "you have heard from old to love your neighbor and hate your enemy", but then he goes on to tell you that no longer applies and doesn't ask you what you think about it. He says that if you lose your life for his sake you gain it. That should be enough. You must love him more than your wife and children. After all, he created all, so if I don't love them, then I am criticizing his creativity I guess. In God's grace. I feel better loving all now. Say a prayer for ISIS tonite, as it is a commandment. Our opinions don't matter.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

yes, how refreshing and beautiful it is to see someone else who honors Yhvh's Word in Yahushua Hamashiach , God's Word in Christ Jesus,
instead of trying to explain it away, analyze it, or trivialize it.

Abba's Shalom in Yahushua to you and your household as He grants you full peace beyond understanding and full rejoicing in His True Salvation and Resting and Relying on Him.

 

[keembo]

Yeshuaslavejeff,

Thank you for your kind comments, and may God bless and keep all here safe from the evil one. We are blessed with Jesus' sacrifice, as it is all about what Jesus did. God's peace to you as you go from glory to glory.

 

[Merv]

Hello, Mr. (GoodLife?) or Newbie? In any case, I'm even newer than you are as I just signed up myself. Maybe you've already given up waiting for a reply, but in case you're still out there here one is. Apparently there aren't too many Anabaptists lurking in this corner of the net. (I'm a Mennonite).

I should caution you that my reply shouldn't be construed as speaking for Mennonites (much less Anabaptists generally). We are all over the map now with regard to positions on military service and pacifism. E.g. my own mom grew up in an Evangelical Mennonite church in western Kansas that, I believe, had a U.S. flag flying and even a plaque honoring the veterans among its membership. These obviously weren't pacifists, unless just on a personal level for some of them. But it is probably still more common, today, for most Anabaptist churches to have positions critical of militarism and nationalism. I worship at such a church, but even here, since we live in a town near a military base, we will occasionally have soldiers that worship with us even knowing our stance against militarism generally, but who want to fellowship despite that. And we welcome them without requiring any sort of "conversion" of their thought on this matter. We even have a couple Vietnam era veterans as long time members, but they are of the sort that have a very sober appraisal of the cost of militarism, and embrace that part of their now-acquired heritage.

All this said, as a life-long Mennonite, I still struggle with the same questions you raise. And am familiar with all the traditional "problems" thrown at pacifists. I think I do speak for a lot of us when I say we don't embrace a "passivism" (not doing anything in the face of evil) in place of any pacifism that we may hold to. I.e. while in practice we may fall short of our professed ideals, we at least profess that we should actively oppose evil with good and only good. I would not stand idly by if my family was being attacked either, but would hopefully do whatever I could to stop or restrain such an assault short of using deadly force. But that has never been tested, and I may fail miserably should such a day of trial ever come. It would take the Lord's working in me, I'm sure, to help me adhere to these Christian principles in the face of violence against innocent victims nearby. I'm not a naturally peaceful man (in my thoughts). Peace takes work. In many ways we do admire (and even honor) the principle of service and self-sacrifice that go with military service. In our church, anyway, our objections are more politically voiced (also unusual among some Anabaptist groups) against the powers that wield that military power for less than honorable goals in the world. I was just thinking to myself the other day ... what an irony if there would be a need for a Christian organization called "Christians without borders".

Hope you're still around and in any case, that you have good fellowship wherever you are.

-Merv

 

[Merv]

Sorry --I'm still getting used to the format of this forum --I now realize that all the posts above are more recent than the top one. I had been thinking the top one the most recent, and didn't mean to be ignoring all the subsequent responses.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

the problems you mentioned were all resolved by Yeshua. and His disciples.

recently, during wwII i think,

the conscientious objector proved it also in today's challenges - he never

picked up a weapon, yet won the military's highest honor , awarded to him

by the president of the usa for outstanding bravery and courage in saving

his troup (who had been hit by machine gun fire and were still all pinned down by it)

dragging them (hundreds)(check) of yards to the cliffs edge then getting

them down the cliff to the water / boat(s) out of range of the enemy's guns.

he wouldn't lift a gun in boot camp even, and was harassed and given

humiliating tasks (kp again and again and again) and mocked by his fellow

soldiers (like the same exact ones he saved later)....

this because a nationwide movie that was televised a few years ago again,

i don't know how many times in the past, and is simple proof that it is possible

to serve in the military and at the same time never lift a weapon , even if

it could mean losing life and limb, and thus not disobeying Yeshua....

it might conceivably be possible that someone "in good conscience" could blow

someone else's brains out with "i was ordered to" as a 'valid' excuse, but

the rest of the attitudes that go along with a life willing to take other lives

don't seem to line up with the Gospel , the Good News, of Jesus, in Bible.

the fact that that 'patriotic' attitude valuing patriatism more than faithfulness to Yhvh the Creator is very popular, is just one of very many

indications that it is not right nor good.(i.e. trusting man instead of Yhvh).

and the (published not verified) fact that a lot of 'churches' are against war

until war is declared and then they are 'for it', is another strong indication

of the deception of the whole society and value system .....

 

[SkyWriting]

I served 11 years in the military, between the Marine Corps and Army. I never truly harbored hate against anyone I had to fight....

Thank you very much for your service.
Continue on your journey without regrets.

What you have done in the past may not match
how you respond tomorrow. And that may change next year.
Praise God on the whole journey.

 

[Caretaker]

Is a "Christian" free to choose which of Christ's commandments he/she will obey? If so, how then is Jesus truly Lord?

 

[WayneinMaine]

In one Anabaptist church I was a part of they would say the hardest thing to repent of is your own goodness. In America it is considered honorable and good to serve in the military, to protect the nation against one’s enemies. But even when done compassionately the military must try to harm our enemies, kill them if necessary but certainly bring disaster and fear to them to make them do as we wish.

This is not Jesus’ way. Jesus said quite simply to love our enemies, to do good to them. You would not try to bring disaster and death if to your own family, whom you love – how can you think it good and honorable to do so to those whom Jesus commanded you to love – your enemies?

We recognize of course that in not defending ourselves (our country) our enemies may very well bring disaster and death to us and to our families whom we love. But this is in God’s hands. We don't know His full strategy. He may use even the wicked and ungodly to protect whom He will, including the armed forces of our nation. Leave that to Him.

Jesus calls us to repent and to become His disciples. Repent means to change your mind, even (especially) about what you think is good and bad. Discipleship means to learn from and to emulate your teacher, Jesus. Does this mean blind unquestioned obedience to Jesus’ orders? As a military man you know what obedience is. Obey Jesus it’s you duty if you want to be a good citizen of His kingdom.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Hello all!
I am new to the site...visiting it for a bit. I have become somewhat acquainted with the Menninite and Amish way of life only as an adult while visiting relatives and love them and always request we take the long drive to visit their stores and sometimes their communities...the relatives sometimes sharpen saws for them. Still it is very limited exposure that I've had, but love their lives and the reminders/cautions against materialism and importance of living the faith.
I did find a book on Mennonites and Amish religion and read some. I'm no expert on their faith. I am a Bible believing Christian and believe we must challenge all we are taught about God's Word with what Scripture actually states.

So, on the topic of pacifism, what are the Mennonite's and Amish doing with the Romans passages concerning the governing authorities having the God-given right to bear the sword to punish the evil doers? Then too we see Jesus commending a centurion as having greater faith than all Israel. Acts speaks of another centurion whom God sent Peter to so as to offer him salvation. We see Paul greeting a government official so it must be fine to be in government. Just wondering, what is your interpretation?

 

[HonestTruth]

Contrary to conventional Christian teaching, Pacifism is biblical. In fact, as Catholic theologian Thomas Merton wrote many years ago, Christianity's first three centuries were all pacifist. Christians only began to accept war when the Romans adopted the religion and put their spin on it.

We have had other discussions on the subject before. Earlier I made references to Psalm 81:13-15; Deut 28:7; Isaiah 41:12; Psalm 27; I Samuel 8:20; and Luke 1:69-75. All prove that a nation that has faith in God does not need a military to protect itself from enemies. Further, Christians are offered the same protection in Luke.

Accept God's offer and we will not need to waste trillions on the military. Society would be safer and more financially sound if this nation actually practiced the Christianity it claims to be believe in.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

I believe we are to be men and woman of peace...no question the Bible teaches this. How this is to be carried out is the question and so I asked how you interpret and incorporate the passages I cite into your theology? We must seek truth from Scripture, not history books. I am sincerely asking this question of you for I seek only Truth as God writes it for us, not human wisdom...the Israelites fought it out with all the unbelieving nations by God's command. ..though King David was not allowed by God to build the temple because his hands shed much blood...as God commanded and enabled him.

 

[HonestTruth]

We must seek truth from Scripture, not history books.

Agree 100%. The passages I posted address just that.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Not that I see...explanation of how you interpret and incorporate the passages I cited was my question.

 

[HonestTruth]

In Luke 3:14 newly converted Roman soldiers were instructed to "do harm to no one". As Thomas Merton wrote, they were obligated to meet the terms of their contract with the Roman army (a 20 year term) but that they were not to be in combat. When reading the rest of the New Testament this should come as no surprise.

 

[ValleyGal]

I don't know about other Anabaptists, but my belief is that killing even in war is contrary to the command not to destroy human life, and we firmly believe we are called to be peacemakers, to turn the other cheek, to love and pray for our enemies. I know the Centurion who converted was not asked to quit his job, which makes me think that our (Anabaptist) position is a matter of spiritual journey - a journey that the Centurion had just started. Perhaps the Lord eventually called him out of his position - we do not know.

Here is a collection of writings on non-resistance and pacifism from a Mennonite perspective, although there are references to Hutterites and Amish as well.
Writings on Christian Nonresistance and Pacifism from Anabaptist-Mennonite Sources

 

[HonestTruth]

Thanks for that link - I have book marked it and have a lot of reading to do!