Outer darkness and the sons of the kingdom

[Tavita]

Ok Tavita,

I'll just point out that I never said that we are only children and not sons. I simply pointed out that there is a difference between "a child" and "a son".

Peace

Thanks mate..

This is what I was trying to say... it is the 'elect' who are the 'sons'... many are called, but few are chosen.

 

[james415]

I'm not ignoring you James! I'm still thinking about and checking out what you have had to say.

I especially like what you pointed out here...

In the parable of the weeds, the wheat was born of good seed (will of the spirit) but the heads(fruit/seed) of the wheat produced weeds because the bad seed (will of the flesh) was now in the wheat. Not next to the wheat, IN THE WHEAT!
​

In her post, angelmom01, pointed out that "if the elect are resurrected first then how come Christ said that in the time of harvest he would send forth His angels to gather FIRST THE TARES? "

Do you see the elect being resurrected first and do you see the angels taking the tares out of the elect at this resurrection?

I don't know what this has to do with outer darkness...

You did mention to me not long ago, and I hope you don't mind me quoting you here, that ...

"Light is life, meaning existence. Dark is death meaning nonexistence. In Gods Will we live and move and have being. Apart from Gods Will exists nothing!

In other words, if we could travel to the boundaries of Gods Will and stick our arm outside, our arm would disappear because nothing exists out there.

Those who believe in the will of man are living in a place that really does not exist, the outer darkness."

I really do like the explanation you gave! And so while we are living outside of God's will, in man's will, we have disorder and chaos, etc,.. the gnashing of the teeth, and weeping. If we are living in man's will.. are we in the Kingdom of God? I know it seems a dumb question...

Hi Tavita,

I’ve decided that trying to explain the Trinitarian nature of God would take us too far off subject so I’ll just focus on the wheat and the weeds.

The way I see it, the wheat is symbolic of the spirit and the weed is symbolic of the flesh. When we believe we are born by the will/seed of the spirit we appear and act like wheat (living in the kingdom). When we believe we are born by the will/seed of the flesh we appear and act like weeds because we now have this second bad seed in us (living in the outer darkness). But God has bound all men over to disobedience meaning all men will be deceived and believe they live by the will/seed of the flesh.

The elect are the first fruits, those who God has revealed the truth to at some point in their life prior to physical death. They die the first death meaning they are dead to the flesh and live by the will/seed of the spirit. They still have their flesh but it is of no value to them.

The harvest is the second death which is the physical death when the spirit/wheat is separated from the flesh/weed. The spirit is taken and the flesh is left behind. The elect (the first fruits) are not harmed by this second death because the flesh is of no value to them. Their eyes are fixed not on what is seen but what is unseen.

I’m not sure if this will help but I hope it does.

God bless
James


...

 

[james415]

I especially like what you pointed out here...

In the parable of the weeds, the wheat was born of good seed (will of the spirit) but the heads(fruit/seed) of the wheat produced weeds because the bad seed (will of the flesh) was now in the wheat. Not next to the wheat, IN THE WHEAT!
​

You probably already know, but the root of the parable of the weeds comes from the story of Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve were wheat but started acting like weeds when they ate of the tree they were told not to eat of. They now had the will/seed of the flesh in them.

Eve gave birth to two sons, one by the will/seed of Adam, the other by the will/seed of the Spirit. Cain was a weed living by the will/seed of the flesh; Abel was wheat living by the will/Seed of the Spirit.

Many of the stories in the Bible are the same message just told in different ways.

Bless ya mate!
James


...

 

[Tavita]

Hi James,

I have a couple of questions to get a better handle on a couple of things you said.

When we believe we are born by the will/seed of the flesh we appear and act like weeds because we now have this second bad seed in us (living in the outer darkness).

Do we now have the second bad seed in us 'after' we are born again, or has it been in us all along?

Are you saying that being in the flesh is being in outer darkness? If so, why would we need to be thrown there when we're already there? For example, The unworthy servant was thrown into outer darkness because he thought of his Master as a hard man and didn't do anything with the talents he was given.. this would be thinking with the mind of the flesh, or the carnal mind. Yet the Master told 'other' servants to throw him into outer darkness.

The harvest is the second death which is the physical death when the spirit/wheat is separated from the flesh/weed. The spirit is taken and the flesh is left behind. The elect (the first fruits) are not harmed by this second death because the flesh is of no value to them. Their eyes are fixed not on what is seen but what is unseen.

I thought the second death = the lake of fire. Is dying, the flesh going back to the ground, the lake of fire? If so, what sort of remedial punishment could that have on a soul?


bless ya too.. Tavs

 

[Tavita]

You probably already know, but the root of the parable of the weeds comes from the story of Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve were wheat but started acting like weeds when they ate of the tree they were told not to eat of. They now had the will/seed of the flesh in them.

Eve gave birth to two sons, one by the will/seed of Adam, the other by the will/seed of the Spirit. Cain was a weed living by the will/seed of the flesh; Abel was wheat living by the will/Seed of the Spirit.

Many of the stories in the Bible are the same message just told in different ways.

Bless ya mate!
James
...

This produces other questions for me (to ask you...lol!)

They now had the will/seed of the flesh in them.

Weren't Adam and Eve made of the flesh to start with? I don't believe in the 'fall'.. I believe they were of the flesh and not perfect (but good, for God's purpose) when they were made. Before she ate of the tree Eve had the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life, otherwise the serpent could not have tempted her in all three areas.

I can see how Cain and Abel would be a good example of being of the flesh or of the Spirit, but how could it have happened? The first Adam.. was of the ground, the flesh.. how did he produce a son with his seed who is of the Spirit? Isn't it the last Adam who is of the Spirit?

Thanks matey....

 

[james415]

Do we now have the second bad seed in us 'after' we are born again, or has it been in us all along?

Are you saying that being in the flesh is being in outer darkness? If so, why would we need to be thrown there when we're already there? For example, The unworthy servant was thrown into outer darkness because he thought of his Master as a hard man and didn't do anything with the talents he was given.. this would be thinking with the mind of the flesh, or the carnal mind. Yet the Master told 'other' servants to throw him into outer darkness.

I believe we are born with both seeds in us but are not “born again” of the spirit until we put our faith in the seed of the spirit. If we have faith in the seed of the spirit then we are living in the kingdom. If we loose faith in the seed of the spirit then we are living in the outer darkness and have faith in the seed of the flesh.

I think the parable of the talents was all about bearing much fruit if you remain in the spirit which requires faith in the seed of the spirit. The evil servant bore no fruit and was caste out. This is just trying to convey the message of what happens if you do not have faith. Same thing with the faith of the centurion (the sons of the kingdom will loose faith in the seed of the spirit).

I thought the second death = the lake of fire. Is dying, the flesh going back to the ground, the lake of fire? If so, what sort of remedial punishment could that have on a soul?

I don’t believe in a remedial punishment after physical death.

James

...

 

[Tavita]

I believe we are born with both seeds in us but are not “born again” of the spirit until we put our faith in the seed of the spirit. If we have faith in the seed of the spirit then we are living in the kingdom. If we loose faith in the seed of the spirit then we are living in the outer darkness and have faith in the seed of the flesh.

I think the parable of the talents was all about bearing much fruit if you remain in the spirit which requires faith in the seed of the spirit. The evil servant bore no fruit and was caste out. This is just trying to convey the message of what happens if you do not have faith. Same thing with the faith of the centurion (the sons of the kingdom will loose faith in the seed of the spirit).

This is a wonderful explanation and has helped me a great deal... thanks!

I don’t believe in a remedial punishment after physical death.

Okay.


bless ya... Tavs

 

[james415]

This produces other questions for me (to ask you...lol!)



Weren't Adam and Eve made of the flesh to start with? I don't believe in the 'fall'.. I believe they were of the flesh and not perfect (but good, for God's purpose) when they were made. Before she ate of the tree Eve had the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life, otherwise the serpent could not have tempted her in all three areas.

I can see how Cain and Abel would be a good example of being of the flesh or of the Spirit, but how could it have happened? The first Adam.. was of the ground, the flesh.. how did he produce a son with his seed who is of the Spirit? Isn't it the last Adam who is of the Spirit?

Thanks matey....

Here I see the dust symbolizing the flesh and the breath of life symbolizing the spirit within.

Genesis 2:7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Here I see that by Adam (seed of the flesh) and the help of the LORD (seed of the spirit) Eve had two sons.

Genesis 4:1-2 Adam lay with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, "With the help of the LORD I have brought forth a man." Later she gave birth to his brother Abel. Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil.

The events using two sons born one by the flesh and one by the spirit are Gods way of telling us how we are separated from Him who is the Spirit within when we put our faith in the flesh. We become like two. Getting rid of the slave woman and her son means putting your faith in the seed of the spirit within.

Galatians 4:21-31 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise. These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written: "Be glad, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud, you who have no labor pains; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband." Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. But what does the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son." Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

1 Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Think about a hand and glove. The glove can do nothing on its own. All it does is the will of the hand. The hand and glove are one. But the glove can not see the hand and believes that what it does is its own will. It trusts in its own plans. The hand and glove are no longer one but have become like two because the glove is trying to go its separate way. Because the hand is stronger than the glove, the glove is a slave to the hand. The burden of the glove is heavy but the glove is set free once it puts its faith in the hand.

Think again about the parable of the talents. The evil servant (son of the flesh) saw his master as hard, reaping where he did not sew. The flesh does not sew (give life) but has reaped the creation (the creation is now a son of the flesh).

Bless ya Tavs!
James

...

 

[Tavita]

Here I see the dust symbolizing the flesh and the breath of life symbolizing the spirit within.

Genesis 2:7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Here I see that by Adam (seed of the flesh) and the help of the LORD (seed of the spirit) Eve had two sons.

Genesis 4:1-2 Adam lay with his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, "With the help of the LORD I have brought forth a man." Later she gave birth to his brother Abel. Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil.

The events using two sons born one by the flesh and one by the spirit are Gods way of telling us how we are separated from Him who is the Spirit within when we put our faith in the flesh. We become like two. Getting rid of the slave woman and her son means putting your faith in the seed of the spirit within.

Galatians 4:21-31 Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise. These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written: "Be glad, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud, you who have no labor pains; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband." Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. But what does the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son." Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

1 Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Think about a hand and glove. The glove can do nothing on its own. All it does is the will of the hand. The hand and glove are one. But the glove can not see the hand and believes that what it does is its own will. It trusts in its own plans. The hand and glove are no longer one but have become like two because the glove is trying to go its separate way. Because the hand is stronger than the glove, the glove is a slave to the hand. The burden of the glove is heavy but the glove is set free once it puts its faith in the hand.

Think again about the parable of the talents. The evil servant (son of the flesh) saw his master as hard, reaping where he did not sew. The flesh does not sew (give life) but has reaped the creation (the creation is now a son of the flesh).

Bless ya Tavs!
James

...

*chuckles.... thanks for the blessings, James....

I like the analogy of the glove and the hand, it's very good (it says a lot about freewill too). I've been reading tons about death, darkness, outer darkness, etc, today, in the difference between the flesh and the Spirit, and I hope I've begun to get a handle on it now, and thank you for helping and all the effort you've put in.. there is always a lot more to learn.

Blessings back to ya....