Outer darkness and the sons of the kingdom

[Tavita]

In order to be cast out of the kingdom, you have to be in the kingdom, correct? So I was asking if there was anyone that you thought was "not" in or part of the kingdom, given that you must be "in" to be cast "out"?

I don't believe all people are in the kingdom now. I believe God has called the 'firstfruits', the elect, into the kingdom now and the rest will come later at the harvest. Can I ask if you think all people are in the kingdom now?

As for someone being in the kingdom, I don't tend to believe they can be thrown out as if being in the kingdom and being out of it are two different literal 'places'. I believe it's all within, and I'm finding it hard to explain..lol! And I'm not totally sure how it all works. I believe there are parts of me that are totally in the kingdom, and other parts where I'm in outer darkness weeping and gnashing my teeth.. does that make any sense?

Is that any clearer? If not, ignore me and I'll try again tomorrow when I am more awake. :o

lol!.. I'm not very clear at all...

As I see it, all were "dragged in" through the death of Christ on the cross (God creating one new man in Christ Jesus).

But, as is shown in Christ's parable, when the King comes to see the guests, there are those "without a wedding garment", who are cast out.

I see this (gathering together in one) as all taking place at the cross and the casting out of those who believe not (those without a wedding garment) as taking place now.

Yes, I tend to believe the same, there are many in outer darkness now, in obscurity, and that wedding guest is in me, and you.. and all of us.

Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, AFTERWARD destroyed them that believed not.

Destroyed the flesh of those who didn't believe.

Christ said He had come "to send fire on the earth".

The second death is death and hell being cast into the lake of fire.... the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, [having] their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.

I believe that is a spiritual truth and that it is going on now, as NOW is the day of salvation and NOW is the judgment of this world.

Amen sister!

My husband will tell you it's true... right down to the burning skin!! (he has a certain type of illness that he has suffered for twelve years, and we know the Lord is doing a great work in him through it!)

Christ came once TO DIE ~and after this~ THE JUDGMENT.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I can get more involved in this, as it relates to the end of the age and the harvest and the angels sent to reap and all of that, later if you want. But I am so exhausted tonight that I am going to turn in early.

I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this, mate..

 

[angelmom01]

I don't believe all people are in the kingdom now. I believe God has called the 'firstfruits', the elect, into the kingdom now and the rest will come later at the harvest. Can I ask if you think all people are in the kingdom now?

I believe that Christ said that in the time of harvest he would send forth his angels to reap. I believe that Christ said that the field was white, already to harvest and that he sent His disciples to reap.

As for someone being in the kingdom, I don't tend to believe they can be thrown out as if being in the kingdom and being out of it are two different literal 'places'. I believe it's all within, and I'm finding it hard to explain..lol! And I'm not totally sure how it all works. I believe there are parts of me that are totally in the kingdom, and other parts where I'm in outer darkness weeping and gnashing my teeth.. does that make any sense?

Then it is internal to everyone, is it not? So if you think that part of you can be in the kingdom and part out and that this applies to all of us, then why do you believe that not all are in the kingdom now?

What is "the kingdom"? Is outer darkness part of it? or no? Is entering into the kingdom the same thing as entering into the New Jerusalem? Seems to me that "the kingdom" might be bigger and encompass more than "a city"?

What I was initially pointing to is the "one new man" created in Christ. If God was creating "one new man" through the cross of Christ, then who is not a part of this ONE man?

I am asking because I know that some believe that ONLY "the elect" are a part of the body of Christ. If there is only ONE NEW MAN, then wouldn't that mean that ALL MEN are a part of the body of Christ (both "the living" and "the dead", who Christ is Lord of)?

lol!.. I'm not very clear at all...

lol.... Sorry. :o

Yes, I tend to believe the same, there are many in outer darkness now, in obscurity, and that wedding guest is in me, and you.. and all of us.

Isn't it the wedding guest who has no wedding garment that is cast into outer darkness? I'm not sure I'm clear on what you are saying.

Destroyed the flesh of those who didn't believe.

My point was that God SAVED them FIRST, then he destroyed those who believed not. So if God saved ALL of them "out of Egypt" before he "destroyed" those who believed not, do you think that God did the same at the cross? Dragged ALL in (both good and bad) before casting those "without a wedding garment" into outer darkness?

Amen sister!

My husband will tell you it's true... right down to the burning skin!! (he has a certain type of illness that he has suffered for twelve years, and we know the Lord is doing a great work in him through it!)

You agree, but you think that it applies only to "the elect"? That only "the elect" are being judged now? Or am I misunderstanding you?

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.

How many "believe"? Who is "not judged"?

I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this, mate..

I'll post it on another thread, since I'm not sure it would be considered relative to this topic. Plus, unless I tweak it down, it'll be long (it's a study).

 

[Tavita]

I believe that Christ said that in the time of harvest he would send forth his angels to reap. I believe that Christ said that the field was white, already to harvest and that he sent His disciples to reap.

Then who are the firstfruits? The firstfruits being the promise of the harvest to come, in it's season. A harvest in the first half of the year and another at the latter end of the year. The year being the shadow of the 'ages'.

Jas 1:18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Rom 8:23 And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for our adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming.


Do you have preterist beliefs and believe the christians before the fall of the Temple were the firstfruits? I'm sorry to ask, I just want to sort out where you're coming from.

Christ secured salvation for all men on the cross but the outworking of that is the reaping of the harvest over the ages. There are two resurrections, the first for the overcomers, the elect, the firstfruits, and a resurrection that Paul 'hoped' he could attain to. The second, the GWTJ, is for those who are not the overcomers (and I believe this includes christians - sheep and goats). There is a working out of these things within, now, but there are also these resurrections to come.

Then it is internal to everyone, is it not? So if you think that part of you can be in the kingdom and part out and that this applies to all of us, then why do you believe that not all are in the kingdom now?

If we're talking about Jesus words and His Kingdom, then, no, I don't think it applies to everyone, it applies to those who have entered the kingdom. There still has to be an outworking of Jesus sacrifice on the cross.. an appropriation, there still has to be a bending of the knee, the response of faith, somewhere along the line to have the kingdom within. And I believe that this will be worked out over the ages in all men.

Before we are 'born again from on high' we are not in the kingdom. And even after being born again I believe it takes a long time and many trials for us to even enter the kingdom.

There are conditions for entering the kingdom..

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Mar 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall in no wise enter therein.

Act 14:22 confirming the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that through many tribulations we must enter into the kingdom of God.

What is "the kingdom"? Is outer darkness part of it? or no? Is entering into the kingdom the same thing as entering into the New Jerusalem? Seems to me that "the kingdom" might be bigger and encompass more than "a city"?

The Kingdom of God is within, so in a sense WE are the New Jerusalem, the city.
People can go in and out of the city.. but can only come 'into' the city if they are righteous, washed their robes.. so outer darkness must be a place where unrighteousness dwells outside the city/kingdom? Does that mean the Kingdom is within me and also outer darkness... the place where I still have sorcery, fornication, etc, still lurking within? Babylon?.. we will deal with the Babylon within until we die.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to come to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 Without are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one that loveth and maketh a lie.

I believe the first Resurrection.. when our bodies are resurrected, is coming at the end of this age.. in the time of the end. So, in a spiritual sense all these things are taking place at the same time.

What I was initially pointing to is the "one new man" created in Christ. If God was creating "one new man" through the cross of Christ, then who is not a part of this ONE man?

Yes, it was done on the cross but still needs to be appropriated. Chaela posted this in the Torment thread and it explains it so well...

Everyone -- if they aren't already -- will be in Christ. All that died in Adam (that would be everybody) will be made alive again in Christ. (1 Cor 15:22).

As for reconciliation, that is God's doing, not ours.(Romans 5:10) The reconciliation being implored ( be ye reconciled) is different from the reconciliation God does (to reconcile). I think what people are being implored to do is to align themselves to the already-established fact of their redemption, to bring themselves into agreement/harmony with the fact that God has, already, worked out their reconciliation. In other words, they're being implored to reconcile themselves to the reality of their reconciliation.

Scripture states that reconciliation has already taken place (Colossians 1:20); those who don't yet believe it are being implored to start doing so, because that's the reality for them whether they believe it or not, a reality (like any aspect of reality) that is easier to live with if one brings oneself into agreement with it rather than continue to live in opposition to it.

I am asking because I know that some believe that ONLY "the elect" are a part of the body of Christ. If there is only ONE NEW MAN, then wouldn't that mean that ALL MEN are a part of the body of Christ (both "the living" and "the dead", who Christ is Lord of)?

I would go so far as to say I believe that not all in the body of Christ are the 'elect', all are called but not all are chosen. Only the overcomers, or those that press on to the goal, or those who have come out of Babylon (there are plenty of believers happy to stay in Babylon). The 144,000 are the elect (symbolic figure) because they are virginal, etc. And they are promised certain things. For example..

Rev 3:4 But thou hast a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments: and they shall walk with me in white; for they are worthy.
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and he that keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give authority over the nations:

Isn't it the wedding guest who has no wedding garment that is cast into outer darkness? I'm not sure I'm clear on what you are saying.
My point was that God SAVED them FIRST, then he destroyed those who believed not. So if God saved ALL of them "out of Egypt" before he "destroyed" those who believed not, do you think that God did the same at the cross? Dragged ALL in (both good and bad) before casting those "without a wedding garment" into outer darkness?

Sure. They were and are invited to the feast, but they never actually got to sit down at table in the kingdom without those robes of righteousness. Yes, we are saved and then the 'flesh' is destroyed. All the dealings with Israel in the OT is to show us our 'flesh' and that it will be destroyed. The flesh and the enemy are what is burned out of us when we are baptized in fire... or go through the Lake of Fire.

You agree, but you think that it applies only to "the elect"? That only "the elect" are being judged now? Or am I misunderstanding you?

What does the scripture say?
1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler.
1Pe 4:16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name.
1Pe 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 And "If the righteous is scarcely saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"
1Pe 4:19 Therefore let those who suffer according to God's will entrust their souls to a faithful Creator while doing good.

The elect will suffer according to God's will. It is the cleansing fire to purge the flesh away.

There is worldly suffering and sorrow, and Godly suffering and sorrow.

2Co 7:10 For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.
2Co 7:11 For see what earnestness this godly grief has produced in you, but also what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what punishment! At every point you have proved yourselves innocent in the matter.

How many "believe"? Who is "not judged"?

I really don't know the answer.



Blessings... Tavs

 

[james415]

I enjoyed all your post, James415, and especially this...



This is what I'm trying to get at in looking at the statement that they will be thrown into outer darkness, and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

ALL of this takes place WITHIN US.

Many Christians say that when they are born again they are washed in the blood and they are perfectly clean before God.. to a point yes, it's true. But what about the flesh? It takes a lifetime of trials and tribulations and a whole lot of suffering to even 'enter' into the Kingdom. The trials and tribulations being the 'fire' that we are baptized in, to deal with the flesh.

Act 14:22 confirming the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that through many tribulations we must enter into the kingdom of God

Right through the parables Jesus showed us that it's not easy to 'enter' the Kingdom, and gave several examples of who would find it the hardest.

I believe Jesus used all these parables and sayings to show us what is within each and every one of us... that it's not happening 'out there'.

At the judgment Jesus doesn't look at one person and say you go to my left you're a goat, and then look at another person and say you go to my right you're a sheep.... those things are within ONE person... me. Whatever He said is of the Spirit, it's not meant to be taken literally. So He sends that part of me into obscurity, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth until the flesh is dealt with. And it does hurt very much to have the flesh dealt with, the fire does burn my 'flesh'.

I agree totally.

As I said in my previous post, Christ is the Will of God (The Seed and Law of the Spirit) and the one who opposes Him is the will of man (the seed and law of the flesh). God has put enmity between our flesh and our Spirit and their seeds. These two seeds are the source of internal and external conflict (weeping and gnashing of teeth). Resulting in judgment and punishment of self and each other (weeping and gnashing of teeth).

Romans 7:21-25 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law[Seed/Will/Law of the Spirit]; but I see another law at work in the members of my body[Seed/Will/Law of the Flesh], waging war against the law of my mind[Seed/Will/Law of the Spirit] and making me a prisoner of the law of sin[Seed/Will/Law of the Flesh] at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law[Seed/Will/Law of the Spirit], but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin[Seed/Will/Law of the Flesh].

Ephesians 2:15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations [seed/will/law of the flesh]. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two [The flesh/dust Adam and Spirit/breath Adam within each of us], thus making peace,

1 Corinthians 15:42-49 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth [outer darkness]; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven [the kingdom]. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.



...

 

[angelmom01]

Then who are the firstfruits? The firstfruits being the promise of the harvest to come, in it's season. A harvest in the first half of the year and another at the latter end of the year. The year being the shadow of the 'ages'.

Jas 1:18 Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Rom 8:23 And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for our adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

1Co 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming.

Who do you believe has the first-fruits of the spirit? I used to believe that this referred to "the elect"; however, Paul clearly says that those who are WAITING FOR "the adoptions of sons" HAVE "the first-fruits of the spirit".

We are sealed by the holy spirit of promise (the promise of eternal life?) when we FIRST believe. But we must go on unto perfection and be born again (of the spirit) that we might have Christ formed in us.

Now are we "the children" (not sons) of God and it does not yet appear what we shall be (sons).

Do you have preterist beliefs and believe the christians before the fall of the Temple were the firstfruits? I'm sorry to ask, I just want to sort out where you're coming from.

No.

Christ secured salvation for all men on the cross but the outworking of that is the reaping of the harvest over the ages.

I agree. I am just pointing out that Christ said the field was ready to be harvested and he sent his disciples to reap. Hence, as I see it, the harvest has begun.

There are two resurrections, the first for the overcomers, the elect, the firstfruits, and a resurrection that Paul 'hoped' he could attain to. The second, the GWTJ, is for those who are not the overcomers (and I believe this includes christians - sheep and goats). There is a working out of these things within, now, but there are also these resurrections to come.

I disagree. There is A RESURRECTION of both the just and the unjust and Jesus Christ ~IS~ THE resurrection and THE life.

Look at Christ's reply to Martha at the resurrection of Lazarus when Martah said that she knew that Lazarus would live again "in the resurrection at the last day". Christ said: "I AM the resurrection and the life..."

If you will look closely at what Paul said, he did not say that he HAD NOT attained unto the resurrection of the dead; he said that he counted himself not to have attained and tells us to walk by the same "rule".

If we're talking about Jesus words and His Kingdom, then, no, I don't think it applies to everyone, it applies to those who have entered the kingdom. There still has to be an outworking of Jesus sacrifice on the cross.. an appropriation, there still has to be a bending of the knee, the response of faith, somewhere along the line to have the kingdom within. And I believe that this will be worked out over the ages in all men.

Or maybe it is within all men and it's just "hidden" (ie "the hidden man of the hear"t and "the light that lighteth every man that comes into the world") until Christ "appears" (is formed) in us?

Before we are 'born again from on high' we are not in the kingdom. And even after being born again I believe it takes a long time and many trials for us to even enter the kingdom.

So then what about ALL being "dragged in" (both the good and bad) before the bad are separated from the good?

There are conditions for entering the kingdom..

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God!

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Mar 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall in no wise enter therein.

Act 14:22 confirming the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that through many tribulations we must enter into the kingdom of God.

I am not disagreeing with those verses. What do they mean if the kingdom of God is within? That the kingdom is not within all men?

The Kingdom of God is within, so in a sense WE are the New Jerusalem, the city.

I agree that we are that city; the New Jerusalem. Is the city the same as the kingdom? Can there be more "in the kingdom" than are able to enter into "the city"?

People can go in and out of the city.. but can only come 'into' the city if they are righteous, washed their robes.. so outer darkness must be a place where unrighteousness dwells outside the city/kingdom? Does that mean the Kingdom is within me and also outer darkness... the place where I still have sorcery, fornication, etc, still lurking within? Babylon?.. we will deal with the Babylon within until we die.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to come to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 Without are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one that loveth and maketh a lie.

So, again, I am asking if there are those "within" the city and those "without" the city, are those "without" in the kingdom or is the city the kingdom? I'm not so sure that city = kingdom.

I believe the first Resurrection.. when our bodies are resurrected, is coming at the end of this age.. in the time of the end. So, in a spiritual sense all these things are taking place at the same time.

So you don't "count" the resurrection of Jesus Christ as being "the first"?

Isn't it the power OF HIS resurrection that Paul said He wanted to know?

Let me ask you this, as this is one of the first questions that I had to start asking myself when I believed that there were two separate resurrections separated by "the millennium" in which "the elect" were resurrected first....

If the elect are resurrected first then how come Christ said that in the time of harvest he would send forth His angels to gather FIRST THE TARES?

Yes, it was done on the cross but still needs to be appropriated. Chaela posted this in the Torment thread and it explains it so well...

Everyone -- if they aren't already -- will be in Christ. All that died in Adam (that would be everybody) will be made alive again in Christ. (1 Cor 15:22).

As for reconciliation, that is God's doing, not ours.(Romans 5:10) The reconciliation being implored ( be ye reconciled) is different from the reconciliation God does (to reconcile). I think what people are being implored to do is to align themselves to the already-established fact of their redemption, to bring themselves into agreement/harmony with the fact that God has, already, worked out their reconciliation. In other words, they're being implored to reconcile themselves to the reality of their reconciliation.

Scripture states that reconciliation has already taken place (Colossians 1:20); those who don't yet believe it are being implored to start doing so, because that's the reality for them whether they believe it or not, a reality (like any aspect of reality) that is easier to live with if one brings oneself into agreement with it rather than continue to live in opposition to it.

I agree (and even Amen'd that very post earlier today ) , but he did clarify his statement with an "if".

As I see it all are already in Christ (who is Lord both of the dead and living).

I would go so far as to say I believe that not all in the body of Christ are the 'elect', all are called but not all are chosen. Only the overcomers, or those that press on to the goal, or those who have come out of Babylon (there are plenty of believers happy to stay in Babylon). The 144,000 are the elect (symbolic figure) because they are virginal, etc. And they are promised certain things. For example..

Rev 3:4 But thou hast a few names in Sardis that did not defile their garments: and they shall walk with me in white; for they are worthy.
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and he that keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give authority over the nations:

I would agree, as I see all in the body of Christ, the one new man, the second man.

Sure. They were and are invited to the feast, but they never actually got to sit down at table in the kingdom without those robes of righteousness. Yes, we are saved and then the 'flesh' is destroyed. All the dealings with Israel in the OT is to show us our 'flesh' and that it will be destroyed. The flesh and the enemy are what is burned out of us when we are baptized in fire... or go through the Lake of Fire.

And doesn't this apply to all men? Are there any who do not go through the fire?

What does the scripture say?
1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer or a thief or an evildoer or as a meddler.
1Pe 4:16 Yet if anyone suffers as a Christian, let him not be ashamed, but let him glorify God in that name.
1Pe 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 And "If the righteous is scarcely saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"
1Pe 4:19 Therefore let those who suffer according to God's will entrust their souls to a faithful Creator while doing good.

Who is excluded from "the household of God" if we are the temple of the living God and we are His body?

If Paul says "let none of you suffer as a murder or a thief, etc" then are not they also being judged, now? Do not some of His servant have their portion with the unbelievers?

Luke 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

When did or does the Lord come out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity?

The elect will suffer according to God's will. It is the cleansing fire to purge the flesh away.

Don't all suffer according to God's will?

There is worldly suffering and sorrow, and Godly suffering and sorrow.

2Co 7:10 For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.
2Co 7:11 For see what earnestness this godly grief has produced in you, but also what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what punishment! At every point you have proved yourselves innocent in the matter.

I agree.

I really don't know the answer.



Blessings... Tavs

Well, we all shall face the judgment seat of Christ, right? As not one is righteous or seeking God, right?

So then it is with much tribulation that any (or all) of us enter into the kingdom of God, right?

 

[Tavita]

Who do you believe has the first-fruits of the spirit? I used to believe that this referred to "the elect"; however, Paul clearly says that those who are WAITING FOR "the adoptions of sons" HAVE "the first-fruits of the spirit".

Well, couldn't you say that the firstfruits are those waiting for the adoption of sons? I think we are saying the same thing in a different way.

We are sealed by the holy spirit of promise (the promise of eternal life?) when we FIRST believe. But we must go on unto perfection and be born again (of the spirit) that we might have Christ formed in us.

I agree.

Now are we "the children" (not sons) of God and it does not yet appear what we shall be (sons).

I can't disagree with this scripture.

No.

Thanks. I just needed to know where you were coming from.

I agree. I am just pointing out that Christ said the field was ready to be harvested and he sent his disciples to reap. Hence, as I see it, the harvest has begun.

Yes, I believe the same.

I disagree. There is A RESURRECTION of both the just and the unjust and Jesus Christ ~IS~ THE resurrection and THE life.

Look at Christ's reply to Martha at the resurrection of Lazarus when Martah said that she knew that Lazarus would live again "in the resurrection at the last day". Christ said: "I AM the resurrection and the life..."

If you will look closely at what Paul said, he did not say that he HAD NOT attained unto the resurrection of the dead; he said that he counted himself not to have attained and tells us to walk by the same "rule".

So what is your understanding of mortality putting on immortality? What of the taking off corruption and putting on incorruption in a twinkling of an eye? Do you believe this has already happened in the resurrection we have already experienced?.. if we are in Christ and He is the resurrection. I'm not sure how you see the events at the end of time I think...

Is it that we have only the 'promise' of the inheritance and have yet to experience all this in it's fullness? That there is a greater fullness to come for us?

Or maybe it is within all men and it's just "hidden" (ie "the hidden man of the hear"t and "the light that lighteth every man that comes into the world") until Christ "appears" (is formed) in us?

I can't agree that it's hidden within all people now. If I could be shown with scripture, then of course. The scriptures show me that there are those in the kingdom and those without. Which could be to mean there are parts of me in the kingdom and parts without too. I see it as being within me... but being outside of me, 'out there in others', as well.

So then what about ALL being "dragged in" (both the good and bad) before the bad are separated from the good?

I had said.. Before we are 'born again from on high' we are not in the kingdom. And even after being born again I believe it takes a long time and many trials for us to even enter the kingdom.

Are we talking about ALL men, or are we talking about ourselves? When it comes to ourselves we do have the bad and the good dragged in.. eg.. the wheat and tares. But when it comes to ALL men, there are those who are dragged in now and the rest come later, in the next age/s.

I'm finding the whole concept of what is within and what is without confusing. If the wheat and tares are within the kingdom and as James 415 says within the wheat, then what or who is thrown into outer darkness, and what does outer darkness mean?

I am not disagreeing with those verses. What do they mean if the kingdom of God is within? That the kingdom is not within all men?

I'm not seeing the Kingdom of God within all people now, that's not what I'm seeing from scripture.

I agree that we are that city; the New Jerusalem. Is the city the same as the kingdom? Can there be more "in the kingdom" than are able to enter into "the city"?

I'm not sure of this either, in fact, it's a good question.

So, again, I am asking if there are those "within" the city and those "without" the city, are those "without" in the kingdom or is the city the kingdom? I'm not so sure that city = kingdom.

Good food for thought, angelmom.
I'm really wanting to know what the outer darkness is. And from scripture it's something Jesus talked about and He wasn't referring to those being thrown into endless torment, which is what the orthodox teach. I'm still trying to sort through it all.

So you don't "count" the resurrection of Jesus Christ as being "the first"?

Jesus resurrection was also a physical, material, bodily resurrection, which we haven't attained to 'yet'. Isn't this what Paul was referring to? We have died with Him in His resurrection, but we haven't come to the resurrection whereby we put on immortality, and our bodies are changed into the spiritual bodies we are promised.

Rom 6:5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also (future tense) in the likeness of his resurrection;

Php 3:10 that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, becoming conformed unto his death;
Php 3:11 if by any means I may attain unto the resurrection from the dead.
Php 3:12 Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect: but I press on, if so be that I may lay hold on that for which also I was laid hold on by Christ Jesus.

Isn't it the power OF HIS resurrection that Paul said He wanted to know?

I see that as a progressive thing that takes place over our lifetime. As we come to know the power of His resurrection.. in dying to self and rising to new life within... but we still haven't attained the fullness of His resurrection, because His body was raised too.

Let me ask you this, as this is one of the first questions that I had to start asking myself when I believed that there were two separate resurrections separated by "the millennium" in which "the elect" were resurrected first....

If the elect are resurrected first then how come Christ said that in the time of harvest he would send forth His angels to gather FIRST THE TARES?

The tares being IN the Kingdom? If the harvest is already being reaped then is it only tares He is reaping now? I don't understand how you are seeing this. Maybe it's a gathering of the tares out of the elect?

I still see the elect as being the firstfruits, in this lifetime.. which are the 'promise' of the harvest to come. And it is the firstfruits, the elect, who will help bring IN the harvest.. they are ministers of fire.

I agree (and even Amen'd that very post earlier today ) , but he did clarify his statement with an "if".

As I see it all are already in Christ (who is Lord both of the dead and living).

Good stuff!!

As I see it, ALL belong to Christ, and as Clement of Alexandria saw it (which is in my siggy).. All men are Christ's, some by knowing Him, the rest not yet.

I would agree, as I see all in the body of Christ, the one new man, the second man.

I think I like the way James415 sees it.. that the one new man is within us.

And doesn't this apply to all men? Are there any who do not go through the fire?

Those who haven't died with Christ will go through the second death.

Who is excluded from "the household of God" if we are the temple of the living God and we are His body?

Why does Paul give a distinction between those who are of the household of God and those who are not?

If Paul says "let none of you suffer as a murder or a thief, etc" then are not they also being judged, now? Do not some of His servant have their portion with the unbelievers?

I don't have a big enough handle on judgment yet to know how to answer, angelmom. This is one reason I'm asking about the 'outer darkness'.

Luke 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

This could be the goats (in Greek it means 'kids') the carnality in christians, I'm changing my thoughts concerning the Lake of Fire.. forgive me for my vagueness, I'm not sure how it all works yet!

When did or does the Lord come out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity?

You are of the belief that all this has taken place already? That the end has come, the resurrection of the dead has taken place, and the books have been opened, and we're all going through the LOF now?

Don't all suffer according to God's will?

In a sense yes.. but what is the difference between godly and worldly suffering and sorrow to you?

Well, we all shall face the judgment seat of Christ, right? As not one is righteous or seeking God, right?

Yes.

So then it is with much tribulation that any (or all) of us enter into the kingdom of God, right?

That's right..

 

[elman]

I came across these verses again the other day and wanted to share it to hear your thoughts.

Mat 8:10 And when Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:
Mat 8:12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

Jesus gives this discourse while talking to the centurion about his faith and that of his own people when we all come to sit at table in the kingdom of heaven.

But I want to focus on that one verse...

Mat 8:12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

Here it says this will happen to 'the sons of the kingdom', yet we hear the orthodox say it's those who don't accept Jesus as Lord and Savior who will be thrown into outer darkness and there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Who are the sons of the kingdom? Is it the unbeliever? The athiest? Those who belong to Satan?... Satan only has a domain, not a kingdom. So who are the sons of the kingdom?

Any thoughts? Any thoughts on what this being thrown into outer darkness and weeping and gnashing of teeth means to the sons of the kingdom?

Personally I think this goes along with the goats being directed to the left and the sheep to the right... what do you think?

I agree. The outer darkness would be that darkness most separated from the light. If light is life and darkness is death, then the outer darkness would be ultimate death, or the second death, or non existence from which there is no return. In the context of the verse it seems to me that Jesus is referring to the people who think they are connected to God because of who they are racially or religiously so they believe themselves to be in the kingdom but actually they are not and are mistaken about their being favoured by God, just as the goats were surprised to hear they had not done as they were expected to do by their creator. One translations says subjects of the kingdom rather than sons.

 

[james415]

I'm finding the whole concept of what is within and what is without confusing. If the wheat and tares are within the kingdom and as James 415 says within the wheat, then what or who is thrown into outer darkness, and what does outer darkness mean?

Hi Tavita,

The Trinitarian nature of God is a Hot Topic that I try to avoid but until you understand it, the Kingdom within and the outer darkness will be hard to understand. HOWEVER, you and I seem to be very close in our beliefs so maybe if I try to explain how I see it, you will see the same thing as well. Give me a day or so and I’ll try to put together an explanation (at least my vision of the one who is unseen).

God bless.

 

[Tavita]

Hi Tavita,

I pretty much agree with most of the posts here so far.
Here is how I see it:

We are all born by the will (Seed) of the Spirit as sons of the kingdom (sheep, wheat). But are cast forth into the outer darkness by the will (seed) of the flesh (goats, weeds).

In the parable of the weeds, the wheat was born of good seed (will of the spirit) but the heads(fruit/seed) of the wheat produced weeds because the bad seed (will of the flesh) was now in the wheat. Not next to the wheat, IN THE WHEAT!

Matthew 13:24-26 Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.


Christ is referred to as the Seed of God. We are all born from Him and He (Gods Will) lives in us. Each one of us is is a branch or an extension of Gods Will. Apart from Him we can do nothing.

John 1:3 (YLT) all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.

John 15:5 (NIV) I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

Philippians 2:13 (NIV) for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

Colossians 1:27 (NIV) To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

1 John 3:9 (NIV) No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

John 1:10-13 (NIV) He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

Romans 8:28 (NIV) And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Acts 4:27-28 (NIV) Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

Isaiah 45:7 (NIV) I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

1 Corinthians 3:16 (NIV) Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?


If we don’t believe that the Will of God, the Seed of the Spirit, Christ, lives in us it is because the one who opposes Christ, the will of man, the seed of the flesh, the man of sin, has set himself up in Gods temple which is us.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (NIV) Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.


God destroys the bad seed by destroying the flesh. He separates the flesh (goat, weed) from the spirit (sheep, wheat).


Here is another way of saying we are cast forth into the outer darkness:
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
...

I'm not ignoring you James! I'm still thinking about and checking out what you have had to say.

I especially like what you pointed out here...

In the parable of the weeds, the wheat was born of good seed (will of the spirit) but the heads(fruit/seed) of the wheat produced weeds because the bad seed (will of the flesh) was now in the wheat. Not next to the wheat, IN THE WHEAT!

In her post, angelmom01, pointed out that "if the elect are resurrected first then how come Christ said that in the time of harvest he would send forth His angels to gather FIRST THE TARES? "

Do you see the elect being resurrected first and do you see the angels taking the tares out of the elect at this resurrection?

I don't know what this has to do with outer darkness...

You did mention to me not long ago, and I hope you don't mind me quoting you here, that ...

"Light is life, meaning existence. Dark is death meaning nonexistence. In Gods Will we live and move and have being. Apart from Gods Will exists nothing!

In other words, if we could travel to the boundaries of Gods Will and stick our arm outside, our arm would disappear because nothing exists out there.

Those who believe in the will of man are living in a place that really does not exist, the outer darkness."

I really do like the explanation you gave! And so while we are living outside of God's will, in man's will, we have disorder and chaos, etc,.. the gnashing of the teeth, and weeping. If we are living in man's will.. are we in the Kingdom of God? I know it seems a dumb question...

 

[Tavita]

Hi Tavita,

The Trinitarian nature of God is a Hot Topic that I try to avoid but until you understand it, the Kingdom within and the outer darkness will be hard to understand. HOWEVER, you and I seem to be very close in our beliefs so maybe if I try to explain how I see it, you will see the same thing as well. Give me a day or so and I’ll try to put together an explanation (at least my vision of the one who is unseen).

God bless.

Sure, I'll be looking forward to it!

 

[angelmom01]

Hi Tavita!

Since the posts are getting so long, I'm only going to post the parts that I think need to be addressed.

I can't disagree with this scripture.

Sorry I didn't make it clear (I was rushing to get out the door :o). My point is that the verse does NOT say "now we are the sons of God"; it says "now are we the children of God".

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons (the word here is teknon = child) of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

So what is your understanding of mortality putting on immortality? What of the taking off corruption and putting on incorruption in a twinkling of an eye? Do you believe this has already happened in the resurrection we have already experienced?.. if we are in Christ and He is the resurrection. I'm not sure how you see the events at the end of time I think...

Is it that we have only the 'promise' of the inheritance and have yet to experience all this in it's fullness? That there is a greater fullness to come for us?

Where does it say that we "take off" corruption (or mortality) in order to "put on" incorruption (or immortality)?

Paul says that we do not desire to be unclothed, but to be clothed upon:

2Co 5:1-4 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

It is THIS MORTAL that must "put on" immortality and THIS CORRUPTIBLE that must "put on" incorruption. It is about being "clothed" that MORTALITY might be swallowed up OF LIFE.

So what has it to do with corpses in physical graves?

Might it, rather, have to do with "the dead"; those who are "full of dead men's bones", who have "no life" in them, who are prisoners of "the body of this death", whose THROAT is "an open sepulcher"?

Who is it that is in need of being resurrected from the dead?

Eph 5:11-14 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

We look not on those things are seen (temporal), but on those things that are not seen (eternal/aionios), comparing spiritual things with spiritual, right?

I can't agree that it's hidden within all people now. If I could be shown with scripture, then of course.

So then how is Christ the light of every man that cometh into the world? And who is the hidden man of the heart?

Why did Paul have to wait for Christ to be formed in them, if he was not already in them, so then either is or is not in you?

The scriptures show me that there are those in the kingdom and those without. Which could be to mean there are parts of me in the kingdom and parts without too. I see it as being within me... but being outside of me, 'out there in others', as well.

How can you see yourself as being both "in" AND "out" of the kingdom at the same time but see others as only being "out"?

I'm not saying that I have it all figured out either. I am just looking at these things.

But I am seeing that in the parables ALL WERE DRAGGED IN to the weeding feast BEFORE the one without a wedding garment was bound hand and foot and cast into outer darkness. (the same with the other parables about the fish and the net, etc). There is a gathering together FIRST and then there is a separation. This seems to be supports by the fact that Paul pointed out that God SAVED ALL out of Egypt; and AFTERWARDS destroyed them that believed not.

I had said.. Before we are 'born again from on high' we are not in the kingdom. And even after being born again I believe it takes a long time and many trials for us to even enter the kingdom.

I'm just pointing out that even "the bad" are "dragged in". You have to be IN the kingdom to be cast out of the kingdom.

So what does it mean to be "in" the kingdom" and what does it mean to be "cast out of the kingdom"?

I'm not saying that I know. I'm asking myself, as much as I am asking you.

Are we talking about ALL men, or are we talking about ourselves? When it comes to ourselves we do have the bad and the good dragged in.. eg.. the wheat and tares. But when it comes to ALL men, there are those who are dragged in now and the rest come later, in the next age/s.

I disagree. I believe that all are a part of the body of Christ, which means that all men were dragged into the ONE NEW MAN.

Though I am not denying the internal, spiritual, application. As we are both the vessel of mercy (the spirit) AND the vessel fit for destruction (the flesh).

Don't forget that we have "this treasure" (Christ) IN EARTHEN VESSELS. Jesus Christ IS "the treasure hid in the field", the "one pearl of great price".

I'm finding the whole concept of what is within and what is without confusing. If the wheat and tares are within the kingdom and as James 415 says within the wheat, then what or who is thrown into outer darkness, and what does outer darkness mean?

I am looking into these things myself. I'm not sure, though I get glimpses.

I'm not seeing the Kingdom of God within all people now, that's not what I'm seeing from scripture.

Well, I don't know but Christ said:

Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

He said:

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

I'm not sure what it means that all are dragged in and some are cast out. I'm not sure what it means that "ye cannot enter in"?

But he also said:

Joh 3:5-6 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The first (natural) man IS FLESH and the second (spiritual) man IS SPIRIT. And scripture says that "the second man IS THE LORD FROM HEAVEN"

If we are all baptized into Christ's death, into the ONE NEW MAN, then we are all a part of HIS (the Lord from heaven) BODY... joined together by ONE SPIRIT, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM.

I'm sure that this must play into it somehow. I just haven't yet gotten a clear picture of how, as it relates to the kingdom of heaven.

But I can see that when scriptures say that NO MAN hath ascended into heaven except he that came out of heaven, that is it is not saying that when we die we 'sleep' unto some future resurrection. As it is not MAN that ascends and descends; it is THE ANGELS OF GOD that ascend and descend UPON THE SON OF MAN.

And it is not about ascending and descending, anyway, as the kingdom of God is within.

Jesus resurrection was also a physical, material, bodily resurrection,

I'm not sure what that "proves" except that there is a resurrection of the dead. Christ performed many PHYSICAL miracles, that all pointed to spiritual realities.

How was he to prove His resurrection or "the resurrection of the dead", except the tomb be empty?

which we haven't attained to 'yet'.

And I am not so sure we ever will, in the sense that our physical flesh will one day pop out of its physical grave.

Isn't this what Paul was referring to? We have died with Him in His resurrection, but we haven't come to the resurrection whereby we put on immortality, and our bodies are changed into the spiritual bodies we are promised.

If the "dying" with him is not physical, but spiritual, then why would the "living" with him be physical, rather than spiritual?

Rom 6:5 For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also (future tense) in the likeness of his resurrection;

Yes, notice that we HAVE BECOME (past tense) united with him in the likeness of his death. How have we become united with Him in the likeness of his death? Were we literally crucified on a cross? Or is this a spiritual truth? If the first part is spiritual, why is the second part not also spiritual?

Php 3:10 that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, becoming conformed unto his death;
Php 3:11 if by any means I may attain unto the resurrection from the dead.
Php 3:12 Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect: but I press on, if so be that I may lay hold on that for which also I was laid hold on by Christ Jesus.

He is not saying that he had not already attained, Tavita. He simply counts HIMSELF not to have already attained. He goes on to say: "Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded."

Phi 3:13-17 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.

Why would Paul not count himself to have attained if he had?

Joh 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

Job 9:20 If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.

We cannot bear witness of ourself. It is GOD that must bear witness of us; just he bore witness of Jesus Christ.

I see that as a progressive thing that takes place over our lifetime. As we come to know the power of His resurrection.. in dying to self and rising to new life within... but we still haven't attained the fullness of His resurrection, because His body was raised too.

And that could very well be a physical manifestation of a spiritual reality.

The tares being IN the Kingdom? If the harvest is already being reaped then is it only tares He is reaping now? I don't understand how you are seeing this. Maybe it's a gathering of the tares out of the elect?

Exactly, the wheat and the tares grow together; there is a dividing between the spirit and the flesh. The flesh is destroyed as the spirit is reaped.

I still see the elect as being the firstfruits, in this lifetime.. which are the 'promise' of the harvest to come. And it is the firstfruits, the elect, who will help bring IN the harvest.. they are ministers of fire.

I don't disagree, but they (the angels of God) are already laboring in the field, as ministers of fire.

Mat 22:29-30 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, BUT ARE AS THE ANGELS OF GOD IN HEAVEN.

Wasn't Paul received "as an angel of God"?

So then...

Who are "the angels of the church"; "the stars" that are in His right hand?

Who are "the angels" who desire to look into these things?

Who are "the angels" that are sent to reap?

Who are "the angels" in the book of Revelation?

As I see it, ALL belong to Christ, and as Clement of Alexandria saw it (which is in my siggy).. All men are Christ's, some by knowing Him, the rest not yet.

But not knowing doesn't necessarily mean that it is not finished.

I think I like the way James415 sees it.. that the one new man is within us.

AMEN!!!

But I thought you said that you did not see that Christ was in ALL MEN?

Those who haven't died with Christ will go through the second death.

ALL go through the second death or there would be no point of saying that those who overcome will not be hurt of the second death as it will have no power over them.

Weren't Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego cast (bound) into the fire? yet weren't they seen "walking loose" when the fourth man... like the Son of God was seen in the furnace walking with them? Having "no hurt"? Not even the smell of smoke on them?

Why does Paul give a distinction between those who are of the household of God and those who are not?

Where?

You are of the belief that all this has taken place already? That the end has come, the resurrection of the dead has taken place, and the books have been opened, and we're all going through the LOF now?

It's too long to post the whole things here, but what do you believe Isa 26 is talking about?

What do you think that it means that Christ came once to die (as it is appointed unto men) and after this the judgment and that NOW is the judgment of this world?

Is there more than one judgment?

In a sense yes.. but what is the difference between godly and worldly suffering and sorrow to you?

That which is "of the world" is not "of God". I'm not sure what you are asking though.


OK... this still ended up being very long.

 

[Tavita]

Hi Tavita!
Sorry I didn't make it clear (I was rushing to get out the door :o). My point is that the verse does NOT say "now we are the sons of God"; it says "now are we the children of God".

1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons (the word here is teknon = child) of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

teknon
tek'-non
From the base of G5098; a child (as produced): - child, daughter, son.

Within the same passage:

(Rom 8:14 NASB) For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

uihos
hwee-os'
Apparently a primary word; a “son” (sometimes of animals), used very widely of immediate, remote or figurative kinship: - child, foal, son.

Where does it say that we "take off" corruption (or mortality) in order to "put on" incorruption (or immortality)?

I'm sorry, I used the wrong words, I did mean that corruption puts on incorruption.

So what has it to do with corpses in physical graves?

I want to know what you believe will happen to us AFTER physical death. Again, I didn't make myself clear. What happens in the future? Have we put on immortality and incorruption yet? I'm not asking because I don't know, I'm asking to know what you believe.

Might it, rather, have to do with "the dead"; those who are "full of dead men's bones", who have "no life" in them, who are prisoners of "the body of this death", whose THROAT is "an open sepulcher"?

I know we're all dead in sin (and all those things you've quoted) before we are born again from above and receive the Spirit of Life. I'm confused at what you think happens after physical death. Do we put on immortality and incorruption NOW.. spiritually... or after physical death?

We look not on those things are seen (temporal), but on those things that are not seen (eternal/aionios), comparing spiritual things with spiritual, right?

Yep.

So then how is Christ the light of every man that cometh into the world?

Because every man is saved, and this will be appropriated (he shall be reconciled) either in this life or the next.

Why did Paul have to wait for Christ to be formed in them, if he was not already in them, so then either is or is not in you?

All of the Epistles are written to those who are already believers. Of course He was already in them. He is the seed placed in the heart... then Christ must be formed in them.

How can you see yourself as being both "in" AND "out" of the kingdom at the same time but see others as only being "out"?

Because some have not received Christ (the Spirit of Life). There are believers and there are unbelievers, and Jesus said we would know them by their fruit.

I know parts of me are not under His Lordship, and a lot of my flesh hasn't died yet. The flesh cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

I'm just pointing out that even "the bad" are "dragged in". You have to be IN the kingdom to be cast out of the kingdom.

So what does it mean to be "in" the kingdom" and what does it mean to be "cast out of the kingdom"?

I'm not saying that I know. I'm asking myself, as much as I am asking you.

LOL! I don't know myself yet, mate!

Though I am not denying the internal, spiritual, application. As we are both the vessel of mercy (the spirit) AND the vessel fit for destruction (the flesh).

Don't forget that we have "this treasure" (Christ) IN EARTHEN VESSELS. Jesus Christ IS "the treasure hid in the field", the "one pearl of great price".

I am looking into these things myself. I'm not sure, though I get glimpses.

I get glimpses too... and I can't even put the glimpses into words!!

If we are all baptized into Christ's death, into the ONE NEW MAN, then we are all a part of HIS (the Lord from heaven) BODY... joined together by ONE SPIRIT, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM.

I don't agree that every single person on the planet has received the baptism into His death and are part of His body... yet.

But I can see that when scriptures say that NO MAN hath ascended into heaven except he that came out of heaven, that is it is not saying that when we die we 'sleep' unto some future resurrection. As it is not MAN that ascends and descends; it is THE ANGELS OF GOD that ascend and descend UPON THE SON OF MAN.

And it is not about ascending and descending, anyway, as the kingdom of God is within.

I'm not sure what that "proves" except that there is a resurrection of the dead. Christ performed many PHYSICAL miracles, that all pointed to spiritual realities.

I can agree with you here too...

How was he to prove His resurrection or "the resurrection of the dead", except the tomb be empty?
And I am not so sure we ever will, in the sense that our physical flesh will one day pop out of its physical grave.

I've done a bit of study today, and realize that when we are resurrected from the dead (whether it's as soon as we die or whenever) it is a spiritual body. As to whether it's a body like Jesus risen body or another type.. I'm not sure of yet.

If the "dying" with him is not physical, but spiritual, then why would the "living" with him be physical, rather than spiritual?

It is spiritual.

Yes, notice that we HAVE BECOME (past tense) united with him in the likeness of his death. How have we become united with Him in the likeness of his death? Were we literally crucified on a cross? Or is this a spiritual truth? If the first part is spiritual, why is the second part not also spiritual?

I'm coming to see the spiritual applications in all this, angelmom... it's not easy coming out of Babylon!!

I don't disagree, but they (the angels of God) are already laboring in the field, as ministers of fire.

Mat 22:29-30 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, BUT ARE AS THE ANGELS OF GOD IN HEAVEN.

Wasn't Paul received "as an angel of God"?

So then...

Who are "the angels of the church"; "the stars" that are in His right hand?

Who are "the angels" who desire to look into these things?

Who are "the angels" that are sent to reap?

Who are "the angels" in the book of Revelation?

Yes, I already realized angels were ministers of fire, and that the elect are ministers of fire.


Can I ask you this... if it is only the overcomers that receive the promises in Revelation, and the overcomers are considered the elect... what of those believers who are not overcomers? What of the believer who is carnal... is he really a believer? If he is, then how can he be considered part of the elect?

Or, do you believe overcomers are 'part' of the elect, the elect being all believers, whether they are carnal or not?

ALL go through the second death or there would be no point of saying that those who overcome will not be hurt of the second death as it will have no power over them.

Weren't Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego cast (bound) into the fire? yet weren't they seen "walking loose" when the fourth man... like the Son of God was seen in the furnace walking with them? Having "no hurt"? Not even the smell of smoke on them?

Good point.

Where?

I had said...Why does Paul give a distinction between those who are of the household of God and those who are not?

1Pe 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER? Begin
archomai
ar'-khom-ahee
Middle voice of G757 (through the implication of precedence); to commence (in order of time): - rehearse from the) begin (-ning).


It's too long to post the whole things here, but what do you believe Isa 26 is talking about?

What do you think that it means that Christ came once to die (as it is appointed unto men) and after this the judgment and that NOW is the judgment of this world?

Is there more than one judgment?

Joh 12:31 "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

Going by these verses judgment has already taken place. Jesus was speaking in the present tense. Does this mean there is therefore now NO more judgment?

I'm not sure of the doctrine of judgment yet..

OK... this still ended up being very long.

Yeah... I had to cut some of it out as it was way too long for me... and we're getting off into too many things at once, and I'm having difficulty with it...

 

[angelmom01]

teknon
tek'-non
From the base of G5098; a child (as produced): - child, daughter, son.

Within the same passage:

(Rom 8:14 NASB) For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

uihos
hwee-os'
Apparently a primary word; a “son” (sometimes of animals), used very widely of immediate, remote or figurative kinship: - child, foal, son.

Tavita,

The proper definition of teknon is "a child"

The proper definition of uihos is "a son"

The word "son" is listed in the definition of teknon only because it is one of the ways in which the translators translated the word. This is how Strong's definition are set up. The proper definition appears first, it is expounded upon next (if required) and all of the ways in which the word was translated appear at the end of the definition after the dash.

Surely a "child" can be male and would then be considered a "son" but the word itself means "child", just as uhios means "son" and being that there is a difference, spiritually, between "a child" and "a son", I think that it is an important distinctions. Not all are 'sons', as is pointed out very clearly by the second verse that you quoted. Those who are led by the spirit are the sons of God.

We are not sons when we first believe and are sealed by the holy spirit of promise having the first-fruits of the spirit. We are children who WAIT FOR "the adoption of son", which is "the redemption of our body".

 

[angelmom01]

I want to know what you believe will happen to us AFTER physical death. Again, I didn't make myself clear. What happens in the future? Have we put on immortality and incorruption yet? I'm not asking because I don't know, I'm asking to know what you believe.

I know we're all dead in sin (and all those things you've quoted) before we are born again from above and receive the Spirit of Life. I'm confused at what you think happens after physical death. Do we put on immortality and incorruption NOW.. spiritually... or after physical death?

Since it is THIS MORTAL and THIS CORRUPTIBLE that must "put on" immortality and incorruption, I would say that we "put on" immortality and incorruption when we are born again (born of the spirit, when Christ is formed in us).

There is a natural body (the outward man) and there is a spiritual body (the inward man).


The first Adam was made A LIVING SOUL.

The last Adam was made A QUICKENING SPIRIT.


It is THE SPIRIT (the inward man) that is quickened, the flesh (the outward man) profits nothing. (John 6:63)


Paul said that he "deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that THE SPIRIT may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus". (1 Cor 5:5)


Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken YOUR MORTAL BODIES by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Spirit quickening spirit.


So what happens at death:

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was (the flesh profits nothing): and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[angelmom01]

All of the Epistles are written to those who are already believers. Of course He was already in them. He is the seed placed in the heart... then Christ must be formed in them.

So then the scriptures (and the entire gospel message) are only meant to apply to those who already believe?

Paul didn't even count himself to have already attained unto the resurrection of the dead and told us to walk by the same rule. I would imagine that he didn't preach to anyone in a manner that would assume that they had already reached the end and received their crown of glory, particularly when many are called but few are chosen.

So how would the gospel message sent to those who "already believe" be any different from the message that is preached to those who don't?

Because some have not received Christ (the Spirit of Life). There are believers and there are unbelievers, and Jesus said we would know them by their fruit.

I know parts of me are not under His Lordship, and a lot of my flesh hasn't died yet. The flesh cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.

The spirit of God can be in you even if Christ is not yet formed in you. One must be "conformed" into the image of His son and those who are sealed by the holy spirit of promise (having the first-fruits of the spirit) still wait for "the adoption of sons".

And scripture says that OUR LIFE (Christ) IS HID and it is not until HE WHO IS OUR LIFE (Christ) SHALL APPEAR that we shall appear with him in glory. (Christ in you, the hope of glory.)

That is why I believe that Christ is in every man, as it is HIS LIGHT that shines out of darkness, WHEN it is revealed in THE DAY of the Lord. Until then it is "hid".

 

[Tavita]

Tavita,

The proper definition of teknon is "a child"

The proper definition of uihos is "a son"

The word "son" is listed in the definition of teknon only because it is one of the ways in which the translators translated the word. This is how Strong's definition are set up. The proper definition appears first, it is expounded upon next (if required) and all of the ways in which the word was translated appear at the end of the definition after the dash.

Surely a "child" can be male and would then be considered a "son" but the word itself means "child", just as uhios means "son" and being that there is a difference, spiritually, between "a child" and "a son", I think that it is an important distinctions. Not all are 'sons', as is pointed out very clearly by the second verse that you quoted. Those who are led by the spirit are the sons of God.

We are not sons when we first believe and are sealed by the holy spirit of promise having the first-fruits of the spirit. We are children who WAIT FOR "the adoption of son", which is "the redemption of our body".

Hi angelmom,

In all these scriptures and more Jesus refers to us as..

'sons' - uihos.

First definition = sons.

Mat 5:45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Mat 8:12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Mat 13:38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;


In this following verse the word for 'sons' is..

uihothesia
hwee-oth-es-ee'-ah
From a presumed compound of G5207 and a derivative of G5087; the placing as a son, that is, adoption (figuratively Christian sonship in respect to God): - adoption (of children, of sons)

(Eph 1:5 NASB) He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,


And I agree with your statement... We are not sons when we first believe and are sealed by the holy spirit of promise having the first-fruits of the spirit. We are children who WAIT FOR "the adoption of son", which is "the redemption of our body".

What is the point? Jesus calls us sons if we're in the Kingdom, but we're told later that we haven't attained to that yet? Or, Is He calling us sons only in anticipation of us being sons? It really doesn't make much difference to me... we're sons or we're children, we're still His.

 

[angelmom01]

I had said...Why does Paul give a distinction between those who are of the household of God and those who are not?

1Pe 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER? Begin
archomai
ar'-khom-ahee
Middle voice of G757 (through the implication of precedence); to commence (in order of time): - rehearse from the) begin (-ning).

This shows that judgment has begun. I don't think that was in dispute, right?

But whether or not those who don't believe are a part of "the household of God", right?

The verse above says that judgment must begin "with" (or 'at' in some translations) the household of God. Some translations even say "from" the household of God and, indeed, the word is apo and is translated "from" many times in scripture.

G575
ἀπό
apo
apo'
A primary particle; “off”, that is, away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literally or figuratively): - (X here-) after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for (-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-) on (-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.


Not sure what that means, exactly, but just pointing it out for now.

But we also know that in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and earth, right?

2Ti 2:15-21 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

1 Cor 12 speaks of ONE BODY and how ALL have been baptized together by the same spirit into ONE BODY (whether Jew or Gentile, bond or free).

I do not get the indication from these verses are any other that not all are a part of the body of Christ, even though some who are "in Christ" are yet "dead".

Heb 10:24-25 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

episunagōgē = a complete collection


Finished, I think....

 

[angelmom01]

Hi angelmom,

In all these scriptures and more Jesus refers to us as..

'sons' - uihos.

First definition = sons.

Mat 5:45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Mat 8:12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Mat 13:38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;


In this following verse the word for 'sons' is..

uihothesia
hwee-oth-es-ee'-ah
From a presumed compound of G5207 and a derivative of G5087; the placing as a son, that is, adoption (figuratively Christian sonship in respect to God): - adoption (of children, of sons)

(Eph 1:5 NASB) He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,


And I agree with your statement... We are not sons when we first believe and are sealed by the holy spirit of promise having the first-fruits of the spirit. We are children who WAIT FOR "the adoption of son", which is "the redemption of our body".

What is the point? Jesus calls us sons if we're in the Kingdom, but we're told later that we haven't attained to that yet? Or, Is He calling us sons only in anticipation of us being sons? It really doesn't make much difference to me... we're sons or we're children, we're still His.

I agree. The point is only to show that there is a difference.

Gal 4:1-6 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Paul is sometimes addressing "babes" who are "yet carnal" and other times he is making statement like: "even so we when we were children" and "He predestined us to adoption as sons".

Are all babes and yet carnal? No.

Are all born again, having already been delivered of the child and received the adoption of sons? No.

That is why 'we' have to "rightly divide the word of truth". As the whole gospel message applies to all men, but not all men are in the same place, spiritually.

The "dividing" points seem (to me) to be rather consistent:

law vs grace
child vs son
yesterday vs today
darkness vs light
the night vs the day
death vs life
sleep vs awake
natural vs spiritual
flesh vs spirit
the outward man vs the inward man
​

I'm sure there are more, but that's off the top of my head.

All of the things on the LEFT are connected, as are all of things on the RIGHT

 

[Tavita]

Hi again, angelmom,

I appreciate all your posts and I know you've put a lot of study into all these things, but I can't keep up with you. The thread is about outer darkness and the fact that it's the sons of the kingdom who are thrown there. If we are only children now and not sons, yet, then the verses on outer darkness don't apply to us now, right?

We are getting off into things I wasn't wanting to discuss, we're all over the place and it still hasn't shown me anything about outer darkness and the fact it is the 'sons' of the kingdom that are thrown there. Maybe it is as others and yourself said to start with... that it was the sons of the Jewish/Law kingdom He was referring to.

blessings, mate....

 

[angelmom01]

Hi again, angelmom,

I appreciate all your posts and I know you've put a lot of study into all these things, but I can't keep up with you. The thread is about outer darkness and the fact that it's the sons of the kingdom who are thrown there. If we are only children now and not sons, yet, then the verses on outer darkness don't apply to us now, right?

We are getting off into things I wasn't wanting to discuss, we're all over the place and it still hasn't shown me anything about outer darkness and the fact it is the 'sons' of the kingdom that are thrown there. Maybe it is as others and yourself said to start with... that it was the sons of the Jewish/Law kingdom He was referring to.

blessings, mate....

Ok Tavita,

I'll just point out that I never said that we are only children and not sons. I simply pointed out that there is a difference between "a child" and "a son".

Peace