Outer darkness and the sons of the kingdom

[Tavita]

I came across these verses again the other day and wanted to share it to hear your thoughts.

Mat 8:10 And when Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:
Mat 8:12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

Jesus gives this discourse while talking to the centurion about his faith and that of his own people when we all come to sit at table in the kingdom of heaven.

But I want to focus on that one verse...

Mat 8:12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

Here it says this will happen to 'the sons of the kingdom', yet we hear the orthodox say it's those who don't accept Jesus as Lord and Savior who will be thrown into outer darkness and there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Who are the sons of the kingdom? Is it the unbeliever? The athiest? Those who belong to Satan?... Satan only has a domain, not a kingdom. So who are the sons of the kingdom?

Any thoughts? Any thoughts on what this being thrown into outer darkness and weeping and gnashing of teeth means to the sons of the kingdom?

Personally I think this goes along with the goats being directed to the left and the sheep to the right... what do you think?

 

[hybrid]

it was an innuendo against the jews.
jews being referred to by jesus as the sons of the kingdom because they were the chosen recipient of god's revelation and yet they rejected the messiah.

god being the light, therefore casting to outer darkness can mean withholding god's protection thus weeping and gnashing teeth were allusions to the bitter suffering the jews went thru, that started during the roman seige of jerusalem to their dispersal that culminated to the holocaust.

 

[Drwhat]

Hi Tavita,
simple answer to your question really, Orthodoxy THINK THAT ONLY BITS OF THE BIBLE CONCERN THEM AND THAT BECAUSE OF THEIR PHANTOM FREE-WILLS ABILITY TO CHOOSE GOD THEY ARE EXEMPT OF BURNING IN GOD SPIRITUAL LAKE OF FIRE, WELL GUESS WHAT THEIR NOT!

No one CAN BE IN THE PRESENSE OF GOD FOR THE AGES TO COME WITHOUT BEING THOROUGHLY PURGED BY FIRE. Some will burn in their lifetime in preperation for the millenial reign of Christ other's will be purged after in the outer darkness.

I will assume that you have no idea what the kingdom of God actually is , forgive me if that assumption is wrong, so I will enlighten you anyway.

The kingdom of God is YOU! And me,and everybody who will ever live, period....

All of mankind is a spiritual tabernacle in the making each one of us a brick in the walls. Jesus is the chief corner stone the capstone and the cement, the Holy Spirit of God the roof and God the light in the middle, my friend your body is a temple that God will reside in, we are all his family and He will make us all like Jesus. And if you don't think that's good news you will do soon enough.

The whole entire bible is for all of us, all of mankind, the wheat and tares are not two different sets of people some good the others bad, my friend we are all the wheat and the tares, the good we do is the wheat and the bad we do is the tares its all about US. Remember the tree was of the knowledge of both good and evil.

Learn to look at the plank in your eye, as we all must.

Now for the cruncher, these sons that come from the east and the west and are familiar and even associate themselves with Abraham, Issac and Jacob, are the Jews who at the same time deny Christ and the Orthodox Church who also deny Christ in their false doctrines such as eternal punishment.
This is simply a stern warning from Christ just as he said also, many will come proffessing my name and I will say "away from me, I never knew you", to the fact that many who play Church will not make the millenial reign of Christ on earth but will have to wait till the year of Jubilee when God will finally release all who holds captive so that God may be all-in-all.

God bless and may His will be done in all of us in His time.

 

[angelmom01]

Hi Tavita,

To me, he was speaking of the Jews.

The same here:

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

 

[Tavita]

it was an innuendo against the jews.
jews being referred to by jesus as the sons of the kingdom because they were the chosen recipient of god's revelation and yet they rejected the messiah.

god being the light, therefore casting to outer darkness can mean withholding god's protection thus weeping and gnashing teeth were allusions to the bitter suffering the jews went thru, that started during the roman seige of jerusalem to their dispersal that culminated to the holocaust.

To me, he was speaking of the Jews.

The same here:

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Thank you hybrid and angelmom01 for your thoughts, and thank you for reminding me that Jesus was speaking primarily to the Jews of His day.

We could also agree that Jesus teachings were concerned with His Kingdom, and that yes, He spoke to those that were living in His time, but He also spoke to us at the end of time in these parables. Jesus Christ, is, was, and is to come.. which means His words, which are spirit and life, are for all time.

In the parable of the King giving His servants talents (Matt 25, beginning at verse 14), the Kings goes away for awhile and then returns to see what was done with the talents He gave them. He gave these talents to His own servants.. (a bondsman, or servant/slave).


With the last servant (His own servant) we find he has not done anything with the talent he was given but was fearful...

Mat 25:24 And he also that had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art a hard man, reaping where thou didst not sow, and gathering where thou didst not scatter;
Mat 25:25 and I was afraid, and went away and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, thou hast thine own.
Mat 25:26 But his lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I did not scatter;
Mat 25:27 thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the bankers, and at my coming I should have received back mine own with interest.
Mat 25:28 Take ye away therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him that hath the ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken away.
Mat 25:30 And cast ye out the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

If we say that these verses again, are only for the Jews, does that mean ALL Jesus parables were only for the Jews?

I don't believe Jesus was speaking only to the Jews in these parables, but those who are servants in HIS Kingdom.

These parables are not meant for the unbeliever or the unsaved, they are for the 'sons of the kingdom'.

 

[Tavita]

Hi Tavita,
simple answer to your question really, Orthodoxy THINK THAT ONLY BITS OF THE BIBLE CONCERN THEM AND THAT BECAUSE OF THEIR PHANTOM FREE-WILLS ABILITY TO CHOOSE GOD THEY ARE EXEMPT OF BURNING IN GOD SPIRITUAL LAKE OF FIRE, WELL GUESS WHAT THEIR NOT!

No one CAN BE IN THE PRESENSE OF GOD FOR THE AGES TO COME WITHOUT BEING THOROUGHLY PURGED BY FIRE. Some will burn in their lifetime in preperation for the millenial reign of Christ other's will be purged after in the outer darkness.

I will assume that you have no idea what the kingdom of God actually is , forgive me if that assumption is wrong, so I will enlighten you anyway.

The kingdom of God is YOU! And me,and everybody who will ever live, period....

All of mankind is a spiritual tabernacle in the making each one of us a brick in the walls. Jesus is the chief corner stone the capstone and the cement, the Holy Spirit of God the roof and God the light in the middle, my friend your body is a temple that God will reside in, we are all his family and He will make us all like Jesus. And if you don't think that's good news you will do soon enough.

The whole entire bible is for all of us, all of mankind, the wheat and tares are not two different sets of people some good the others bad, my friend we are all the wheat and the tares, the good we do is the wheat and the bad we do is the tares its all about US. Remember the tree was of the knowledge of both good and evil.

Learn to look at the plank in your eye, as we all must.

Now for the cruncher, these sons that come from the east and the west and are familiar and even associate themselves with Abraham, Issac and Jacob, are the Jews who at the same time deny Christ and the Orthodox Church who also deny Christ in their false doctrines such as eternal punishment.
This is simply a stern warning from Christ just as he said also, many will come proffessing my name and I will say "away from me, I never knew you", to the fact that many who play Church will not make the millenial reign of Christ on earth but will have to wait till the year of Jubilee when God will finally release all who holds captive so that God may be all-in-all.

God bless and may His will be done in all of us in His time.

I totally agree with your thoughts, Drwhat! I believe the same way... right down to even christians having to go through the LOF.. either now or later.

(Mar 9:49 ASV) For every one shall be salted with fire.

All the sacrifices were offered with salt, and ALL the flesh was burned on the fire.

ALL FLESH shall be burned up in the fire..

1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 But if any man buildeth on the foundation gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 each man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it is revealed in fire; and the fire itself shall prove each man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work shall abide which he built thereon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire.

Will our works be the works of the flesh rather than of the Spirit?

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity,
Mat 13:42 and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

It doesn't matter if we're believers or unbelievers... if we have anything of the flesh in us... it will be burned up with fire...

That includes the Jews in the Holocaust... it includes all those suffering horrendous things in our world now and in times past.. it will include all those who will have to suffer in the future.

I especially liked what you said here...

The whole entire bible is for all of us, all of mankind, the wheat and tares are not two different sets of people some good the others bad, my friend we are all the wheat and the tares, the good we do is the wheat and the bad we do is the tares its all about US. Remember the tree was of the knowledge of both good and evil.

We, are also Judas's, the antichrist, the man of perdition, we're all of it, it's all within us...

 

[angelmom01]

Thank you hybrid and angelmom01 for your thoughts, and thank you for reminding me that Jesus was speaking primarily to the Jews of His day.

We could also agree that Jesus teachings were concerned with His Kingdom, and that yes, He spoke to those that were living in His time, but He also spoke to us at the end of time in these parables. Jesus Christ, is, was, and is to come.. which means His words, which are spirit and life, are for all time.

In the parable of the King giving His servants talents (Matt 25, beginning at verse 14), the Kings goes away for awhile and then returns to see what was done with the talents He gave them. He gave these talents to His own servants.. (a bondsman, or servant/slave).


With the last servant (His own servant) we find he has not done anything with the talent he was given but was fearful...

Mat 25:24 And he also that had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art a hard man, reaping where thou didst not sow, and gathering where thou didst not scatter;
Mat 25:25 and I was afraid, and went away and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, thou hast thine own.
Mat 25:26 But his lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I did not scatter;
Mat 25:27 thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the bankers, and at my coming I should have received back mine own with interest.
Mat 25:28 Take ye away therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him that hath the ten talents.
Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken away.
Mat 25:30 And cast ye out the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

If we say that these verses again, are only for the Jews, does that mean ALL Jesus parables were only for the Jews?

I don't believe Jesus was speaking only to the Jews in these parables, but those who are servants in HIS Kingdom.

These parables are not meant for the unbeliever or the unsaved, they are for the 'sons of the kingdom'.

Hi Tavita!

Rom 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.



Who is that you think is not a part of the kingdom? Being that those who are cast into outer darkness are cast "out of the kingdom"?

Didn't Christ say:

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Do you see that as not having happened at the cross, but is yet to come?

 

[Blackmarch]

I came across these verses again the other day and wanted to share it to hear your thoughts.

Mat 8:10 And when Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:
Mat 8:12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

Jesus gives this discourse while talking to the centurion about his faith and that of his own people when we all come to sit at table in the kingdom of heaven.

But I want to focus on that one verse...

Mat 8:12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

Here it says this will happen to 'the sons of the kingdom', yet we hear the orthodox say it's those who don't accept Jesus as Lord and Savior who will be thrown into outer darkness and there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Who are the sons of the kingdom? Is it the unbeliever? The athiest? Those who belong to Satan?... Satan only has a domain, not a kingdom. So who are the sons of the kingdom?

Any thoughts? Any thoughts on what this being thrown into outer darkness and weeping and gnashing of teeth means to the sons of the kingdom?

Personally I think this goes along with the goats being directed to the left and the sheep to the right... what do you think?

I think the parable that christ gives about the nobles who were invited to a feast by a king, but declined and so the king told his servants to invite all who would come instead.. would shed some light on those verses.

The sons of the kingdom would be those who have entered into Gods covenant.

The ones who are sent to outer darkness are those who then later reject that covenant.

 

[james415]

I came across these verses again the other day and wanted to share it to hear your thoughts.

Mat 8:10 And when Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:
Mat 8:12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

Jesus gives this discourse while talking to the centurion about his faith and that of his own people when we all come to sit at table in the kingdom of heaven.

But I want to focus on that one verse...

Mat 8:12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

Here it says this will happen to 'the sons of the kingdom', yet we hear the orthodox say it's those who don't accept Jesus as Lord and Savior who will be thrown into outer darkness and there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Who are the sons of the kingdom? Is it the unbeliever? The athiest? Those who belong to Satan?... Satan only has a domain, not a kingdom. So who are the sons of the kingdom?

Any thoughts? Any thoughts on what this being thrown into outer darkness and weeping and gnashing of teeth means to the sons of the kingdom?

Personally I think this goes along with the goats being directed to the left and the sheep to the right... what do you think?

Hi Tavita,

I pretty much agree with most of the posts here so far.
Here is how I see it:

We are all born by the will (Seed) of the Spirit as sons of the kingdom (sheep, wheat). But are cast forth into the outer darkness by the will (seed) of the flesh (goats, weeds).

In the parable of the weeds, the wheat was born of good seed (will of the spirit) but the heads(fruit/seed) of the wheat produced weeds because the bad seed (will of the flesh) was now in the wheat. Not next to the wheat, IN THE WHEAT!

Matthew 13:24-26 Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.


Christ is referred to as the Seed of God. We are all born from Him and He (Gods Will) lives in us. Each one of us is is a branch or an extension of Gods Will. Apart from Him we can do nothing.

John 1:3 (YLT) all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.

John 15:5 (NIV) I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

Philippians 2:13 (NIV) for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

Colossians 1:27 (NIV) To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

1 John 3:9 (NIV) No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

John 1:10-13 (NIV) He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

Romans 8:28 (NIV) And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Acts 4:27-28 (NIV) Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

Isaiah 45:7 (NIV) I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

1 Corinthians 3:16 (NIV) Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?


If we don’t believe that the Will of God, the Seed of the Spirit, Christ, lives in us it is because the one who opposes Christ, the will of man, the seed of the flesh, the man of sin, has set himself up in Gods temple which is us.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (NIV) Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.


God destroys the bad seed by destroying the flesh. He separates the flesh (goat, weed) from the spirit (sheep, wheat).


Here is another way of saying we are cast forth into the outer darkness:
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
...

 

[Evergreen48]

it was an innuendo against the jews.
jews being referred to by jesus as the sons of the kingdom because they were the chosen recipient of god's revelation and yet they rejected the messiah.

god being the light, therefore casting to outer darkness can mean withholding god's protection thus weeping and gnashing teeth were allusions to the bitter suffering the jews went thru, that started during the roman seige of jerusalem to their dispersal that culminated to the holocaust.

I pretty much agree with this except for the 'holocaust' being the culmination. I believe what happened to Israel in 70 A.D. ended the physical kingdom forever. The Jews of the 'holocaust' were not 'pure' in their Abrahamic descent. Hundreds of years of intermarriage with the other nationalities with which they had mingled, had pretty much taken this away from them by the time of the holocaust. And such is the present day state of the modern day Israel.

 

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[Tavita]

Hi Tavita!

Rom 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.



Who is that you think is not a part of the kingdom? Being that those who are cast into outer darkness are cast "out of the kingdom"?

I'm a little confused by your question, angelmom. Is there a way you could make it a bit clearer for me... sorry..

Didn't Christ say:

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Do you see that as not having happened at the cross, but is yet to come?

I see it as having happened at the cross, at a pivotal point of time, for all men and for all time, just as for example, healing was secured for all at the cross, but is ongoing and is coming, finding it's fulfillment in the end of the ages, God working it out in His timing, within the framework of the ages.

 

[Tavita]

I think the parable that christ gives about the nobles who were invited to a feast by a king, but declined and so the king told his servants to invite all who would come instead.. would shed some light on those verses.

The sons of the kingdom would be those who have entered into Gods covenant.

The ones who are sent to outer darkness are those who then later reject that covenant.

Do you think maybe it's those who haven't dealt with the 'flesh' which is the filthy rags (and haven't worked out their salvation with fear and trembling) that are thrown into outer darkness.. which is a place of
obscurity, until the flesh is dealt with?

 

[Tavita]

Hi Tavita,

I pretty much agree with most of the posts here so far.
Here is how I see it:

We are all born by the will (Seed) of the Spirit as sons of the kingdom (sheep, wheat). But are cast forth into the outer darkness by the will (seed) of the flesh (goats, weeds).

In the parable of the weeds, the wheat was born of good seed (will of the spirit) but the heads(fruit/seed) of the wheat produced weeds because the bad seed (will of the flesh) was now in the wheat. Not next to the wheat, IN THE WHEAT!

Matthew 13:24-26 Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.


Christ is referred to as the Seed of God. We are all born from Him and He (Gods Will) lives in us. Each one of us is is a branch or an extension of Gods Will. Apart from Him we can do nothing.

John 1:3 (YLT) all things through him did happen, and without him happened not even one thing that hath happened.

John 15:5 (NIV) I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.

Philippians 2:13 (NIV) for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

Colossians 1:27 (NIV) To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

1 John 3:9 (NIV) No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

John 1:10-13 (NIV) He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

Romans 8:28 (NIV) And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

Acts 4:27-28 (NIV) Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

Isaiah 45:7 (NIV) I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

1 Corinthians 3:16 (NIV) Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?


If we don’t believe that the Will of God, the Seed of the Spirit, Christ, lives in us it is because the one who opposes Christ, the will of man, the seed of the flesh, the man of sin, has set himself up in Gods temple which is us.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (NIV) Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.


God destroys the bad seed by destroying the flesh. He separates the flesh (goat, weed) from the spirit (sheep, wheat).


Here is another way of saying we are cast forth into the outer darkness:
Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
...

I enjoyed all your post, James415, and especially this...

God destroys the bad seed by destroying the flesh. He separates the flesh (goat, weed) from the spirit (sheep, wheat).

This is what I'm trying to get at in looking at the statement that they will be thrown into outer darkness, and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

ALL of this takes place WITHIN US.

Many Christians say that when they are born again they are washed in the blood and they are perfectly clean before God.. to a point yes, it's true. But what about the flesh? It takes a lifetime of trials and tribulations and a whole lot of suffering to even 'enter' into the Kingdom. The trials and tribulations being the 'fire' that we are baptized in, to deal with the flesh.

Act 14:22 confirming the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that through many tribulations we must enter into the kingdom of God

Right through the parables Jesus showed us that it's not easy to 'enter' the Kingdom, and gave several examples of who would find it the hardest.

I believe Jesus used all these parables and sayings to show us what is within each and every one of us... that it's not happening 'out there'.

At the judgment Jesus doesn't look at one person and say you go to my left you're a goat, and then look at another person and say you go to my right you're a sheep.... those things are within ONE person... me. Whatever He said is of the Spirit, it's not meant to be taken literally. So He sends that part of me into obscurity, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth until the flesh is dealt with. And it does hurt very much to have the flesh dealt with, the fire does burn my 'flesh'.

 

[Tavita]

Stop thinking about this from a Gentile Christian perspective and start thinking about it from a Jewish perspective instead.

The 'sons of the Kingdom' are the Israelites but not all of them live by faith. The Messiah is declaring that those Israelite 'sons of the kingdom' who do not live by faith will be replaced by Gentile 'sons of the kingdom' (i.e. Christians) who do live by faith (Hab.2:4; Rom.1:16-17).

I'm sorry, I gave the wrong parable to talk about the concept of the outer darkness and the weeping and gnashing of teeth. I really didn't want to talk about the Jews having the kingdom taken from them. I should have used either Matthew 22, or the Matthew 25 parables, as each of those show that it's HIS Servants He's speaking of.. the ones that are called but not chosen. The chosen being the elect of course. Not all Christians are chosen to be the 'elect'.

Being ejected from the kingdom of Heaven means being a son of the kingdom of Darkness (i.e. Satan's kingdom) something that many Israelites believe(d) is/was not possible for an Israelite, only for the 'heathen' Gentiles.

Satan doesn't have a Kingdom, he has a domain, he is not a king. He owns the kingdoms of this world, but his own area is a domain. The Jews didn't recognise a being called Satan.

The Messiah was declaring that not only was it possible for Israelites to be ejected from the kingdom of Heaven it was also highly likely that many Israelites would be ejected in favour of believing Gentiles (Rom.9-11).

I've not heard of this before.. the part underlined. Can you give some reference to this, besides having to read all of Romans chapters 9 - 11?

 

[Tavita]

The term 'flesh' here is not referring to corporeality itself but to the 'sinful nature' that is in rebellion against God (which is essentially non-corporeal anyway). It is this that needs to be purged from regenerate man. What is done during this life will not need to be done on the Day of Judgment. What is not done during this life will be done on the Day of Judgment.

Note the reference to 'them that do iniquity' in Matt.13.41 (and the fact that they will be cast into the fire (v.42)). Clearly this shows that is is not just a case of all men being purged of their sins in order to 'restore' their essential 'goodness' but that, in the case of some men, all that they are is unregenerate sinful nature, in complete and total rebellion against God, and any 'good' that they might do is solely on the basis of the grace of God?!

So some men are more unregenerate and rebellious than others? God gave ALL into disobedience so that He may have mercy on ALL.

Do you think God sees one set of people as being more 'good' and deserving of Grace than others?

The notion that all men are essentially good but have become 'periferally corrupted' through their own sinful actions, from which they need to be purged in order to restore their essential 'goodness', is not one that is endorsed by the Scriptures (Isa.64:6; Rom.3:9-18, 23; 6:23(a)).

I believe what you said. This is why Jesus was the sin offering.

The Scriptures simply do not teach Universalism or that no-one (i.e. no human) will ever go to Perdition (i.e. the everlasting Lake of Fire)

That is simply your opinion. My opinion is the scriptures DO teach that all men will be saved, from the least of them to the greatest, and this is displayed from Genesis to Revelation. Many choose not to see it as they would rather believe the orthodox position of their own churches. Tradition has told them that bad people go to hell to be tormented endlessly. Instead of just saying the scriptures do not teach it, how about showing us using the scripture that God will send 99% of humanity to endless woe.

btw... I believe 'most' will go to the Lake of Fire... that includes christians, there are many christians who go through the lake of fire in this lifetime. The Lake of Fire is not a literal place.

 

[angelmom01]

I'm a little confused by your question, angelmom. Is there a way you could make it a bit clearer for me... sorry..

In order to be cast out of the kingdom, you have to be in the kingdom, correct? So I was asking if there was anyone that you thought was "not" in or part of the kingdom, given that you must be "in" to be cast "out"?

Is that any clearer? If not, ignore me and I'll try again tomorrow when I am more awake. :o

I see it as having happened at the cross, at a pivotal point of time, for all men and for all time, just as for example, healing was secured for all at the cross, but is ongoing and is coming, finding it's fulfillment in the end of the ages, God working it out in His timing, within the framework of the ages.

I was sort of asking this question in relation to, and as sort of a follow-on, to the first one, I guess.

As I see it, all were "dragged in" through the death of Christ on the cross (God creating one new man in Christ Jesus).

But, as is shown in Christ's parable, when the King comes to see the guests, there are those "without a wedding garment", who are cast out.

I see this (gathering together in one) as all taking place at the cross and the casting out of those who believe not (those without a wedding garment) as taking place now.

Jude 1:5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, AFTERWARD destroyed them that believed not.

Christ said He had come "to send fire on the earth".

The second death is death and hell being cast into the lake of fire.... the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, [having] their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.

I believe that is a spiritual truth and that it is going on now, as NOW is the day of salvation and NOW is the judgment of this world.

Christ came once TO DIE ~and after this~ THE JUDGMENT.

I can get more involved in this, as it relates to the end of the age and the harvest and the angels sent to reap and all of that, later if you want. But I am so exhausted tonight that I am going to turn in early.