Outer Calling And Inner Calling.......

[nill]

For your information, Van, the turn in tone in my last post indicates a refusal to go in the circles of confusing and ambiguous posts that I've been watching you post (and seem to be very fond of)--just in case you are preparing to spin one off. Trust me, they're there.

Aye.

Fair enough.

Continue.

 

[Van]

Hi Neal, the inner call, irresistible grace is a fiction not found anywhere in scripture. In 1 Corinthians 2:1-5 Paul does not say the Corinthians thought the pure gospel of Christ he delivered was folly. In this passage Paul is referring to the plain jane gospel, the milk, understandable by unregenerates and infants in Christ. Then in verse 6, Paul adds that among mature Christians, he does present wisdom, the hidden wisdom of God, hidden from those who are not spiritually mature.

In Ephesians 4:17-18 Paul is addressing the same kind of people Jesus spoke of in the parable (Matthew 13:1-23) concerning the four soils. These are like the seed that falls beside the path. Note that they hardened themselves, and that others who had not hardened themselves would be receptive to the gospel. Those had learned, verse 20.

So what makes a person with a futile mind, darkened understanding, alienated life, and hardened heart accept the gospel as the truth of God and not as a folly, Van?

Jesus tells us the answer in Matthew 13:1-23. Folks that love darkness and have hardened their hearts will not be able to understand the gospel, they are in the condition of total spiritual inability. But the other three kinds of folks do not reject, but receive the gospel.

Because you don't believe that the Holy Spirit plays a personal role in bringing people to faith in Christ--i.e., God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit don't get a say in who is saved--you have no reason to account for Paul's conversion.

Of course the Holy Spirit, working through individuals plays a role in revealing the gospel to individuals. What I say is a fiction is the inner call, where the Holy Spirit alters the core character of selected individuals. There is no support for that fiction anywhere in scripture.

And finally lets look at Paul's conversion. He believed in God and thought He was serving God by going after believers in Christ. So he was mistaken about Christ, but had heard and learned from the Father about the Messiah. At this point, Christ confronts Paul on the road. Paul is convinced that Jesus is the Christ, and that Christ has appointed him to be a servant. And Paul makes the decision not be disobedient. (Acts 26:19).
There is no support for the idea that Paul's character was softened by an inner call, he was knocked to the ground, blinded, and faced Jesus in a vision.

One more point, the only entity that saves people is the Triune God, we do nothing to save ourselves. It is God who has mercy on us, He credits our faith as righteousness, it is not righteous of and by itself.

Romans 9 says God has mercy upon people and hardens others. It does not say God softens people and hardens others. There is no support anywhere in scripture for the inner call. But there is support for being spiritually born again, regenerated, supernaturally altered, after a person's faith is credited as righteousness. John 1:12-13. How are people softened? By being cultivated, taught, given example, treated with love and kindness, we are to pray that we will present Christ to others. Maybe it will be only a kind word, taking an insult and not returning evil for evil. Look at how Jesus softened the hearts of others by showing compassion to the blind, the lame, and the sick. Love never fails, Neal.

 

[Van]

Hi Neal, I know it is confusing when you meet someone who does not believe what you believe. But I try to be very clear, the inner call is a fiction. It cannot be found anywhere in scripture. I do not know how I can make that point any more clearly. I also clearly state that four of the 5 points of Calvinsim, the T, U, L, and I are false doctrines. I do not sneak up on folks using vague statements that might mean different things. You asked for a verse by verse response and I provided it. You then asked I address your points, and I addressed them.

 

[savedbygrace57]

Van,

1 Corinthians 2:1-5: "And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. 2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, 4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God."

There is absolutely no doubt Paul is speaking of the gospel here, which he said was the "word of the cross" (1 Corinthians 1:18).

Why would something like the gospel--Christ's free grace and redemption of sinners--be called folly by the unregenerate? Paul says why in Ephesians 4:17-18: "Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. 18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart." So, their minds are futile, their understanding is darkened, their life is alienated from God, and their hearts are hardened.

Since you said the Holy Spirit's job is to provide revelation of the gospel of Christ, why doesn't the Holy Spirit also testify that what He is revealing is true? Obviously people don't believe it, but it's also obvious that they cannot see it. Not a very good job on the revealing of the Holy Spirit's part, don't you think? So what makes a person with a futile mind, darkened understanding, alienated life, and hardened heart accept the gospel as the truth of God and not as a folly, Van?

Because you don't believe that the Holy Spirit plays a personal role in bringing people to faith in Christ--i.e., God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit don't get a say in who is saved--you have no reason to account for Paul's conversion. Paul's conversion was a fluke, since, according to you, the Holy Spirit didn't even testify that anything Jesus was saying was true. The Holy Spirit just said, "Here's the gospel; take it or leave it." And then you leave it to the darkened, futile mind to suddenly switch on the lights and think that everything that was folly and damnable and wicked is now true and right and good (à la Saul of Tarsus, apparently).

You have got it so backwards.

Folks, look it up. Van is a fiction.

Neal you are right the 1 cor 2 passage you cited is referring to the gospel and it takes the ministry of the holy Spirit to reveal it to the elect as in

1cor 2:

7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

The Gospel of christ is Gods Mystery to the elect..paul confirms this ideal in eph 6:

19And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

This mystery is not for everyone to know but only for the chosen ones of God..

Matt 13:

11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Thats why Jesus said this gospel of the kingdom will be preached right before the end of the world..

matt 24:

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 

[Van]

1 Corinthians 2:1-5 refers to the gospel. But Paul changes the subject in verse 6. He starts addressing the message to the mature, and therefore the gospel is not in view.

In Ephesians 6:19, The mystery, folks, was Christ, but now the mystery has been revealed, Paul boldly proclaims the mystery of the gospel, so it is no longer a mystery.

Matthew 13:11 is dealing with the timetable for the revelation, but since Matthew wrote the information down as part of his gospel, the information is no longer a mystery.

The gospel of Christ has been being preached from about 49 days after Christ arose from the dead. It is being preached now, and will continue to be preached until Christ returns.

The inner call is a fiction, the gospel is the power of God unto salvation. What must I do to be saved? Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[holdon]

Why would something like the gospel--Christ's free grace and redemption of sinners--be called folly by the unregenerate? Paul says why in Ephesians 4:17-18: "Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. 18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart." So, their minds are futile, their understanding is darkened, their life is alienated from God, and their hearts are hardened.

And citing this text reasons exactly against you. They are alienated from the life of God BECAUSE of the ignorance that is in them, DUE to their hardness of heart.

It is just utterly amazing that people can twist verses of the bible around to make them say exactly the opposite!

I'm sorry but anyone who can read must conclude that "You have got it so backwards. "

 

[holdon]

You got to be kidding me , right ?

Exactly as I thought: no refutation from the bible.

 

[holdon]

Holdon is right to a degree, the predestination of believers only applies to those "in Christ" which means born again believers, and does not apply to those not yet "in Christ." Scripture says born again believers are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, and to an inheritance as a child of God, referring to our bodily resurrection at Christ's second coming. That's it folks.

Predestination (as in Eph. 1 and Romans 8) is certainly for the believers. But it is not "predestination unto eternal life". NOTHING of the kind is found in the entire Scripture.
Nor is election, election "unto eternal life". NOWHERE is that found in Scripture.
As far as we know from the bible, there is no divine decree as to who will be saved and who not. It is a theological fantasy.

 

[cygnusx1]

Neal you are right the 1 cor 2 passage you cited is referring to the gospel and it takes the ministry of the holy Spirit to reveal it to the elect as in

1cor 2:

7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

The Gospel of christ is Gods Mystery to the elect..paul confirms this ideal in eph 6:

19And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

This mystery is not for everyone to know but only for the chosen ones of God..

Matt 13:

11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Thats why Jesus said this gospel of the kingdom will be preached right before the end of the world..

matt 24:

14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

makes a lot more sense than holdon and van... but then even the disciples were not always equipped and ready for Christ's instruction.

 

[Van]

Hi Holdon, we agree on predestination to eternal life, but we disagree on election during our physical life. 1 Peter 2:9-10 says after a person has lived without mercy, then they are chosen to be member of His people for His own possession. To be a saint is to be set apart, and God chooses those He sets apart, we do not set ourselves apart. So I do not accept the Arminian view.
Have a great day.

 

[holdon]

Hi Holdon, we agree on predestination to eternal life, but we disagree on election during our physical life. 1 Peter 2:9-10 says after a person has lived without mercy, then they are chosen to be member of His people for His own possession. To be a saint is to be set apart, and God chooses those He sets apart, we do not set ourselves apart. So I do not accept the Arminian view.
Have a great day.

Eph. 1:4 says that we are chosen (elected) before the world's foundation.
The condition there is: "in Him". We were chosen in Him at that time.
The purpose there is: "to be blameless in love before Him".
Nothing there about salvation, eternal life, etc.., because before the world's foundation the Fall was not contemplated.

Same in Romans 8 where we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He could be the firstborn among many brethren.
But now that the Fall has happened, the Son had to become flesh and die to expiate our sins and to take sin away from this world. Therefore God puts into effect the means for those predestined: He calls. And those that obey that call, He justifies. And those He justifies, He also glorifies.

 

[Jipsah]

Hi Neal, the inner call, irresistible grace is a fiction not found anywhere in scripture.

I reckon that may simply reflects your lack of knowledge of Scripture.

What I say is a fiction is the inner call, where the Holy Spirit alters the core character of selected individuals.

And as usual, you're wrong.

 

[nill]

holdon said,
"And citing this text reasons exactly against you. They are alienated from the life of God BECAUSE of the ignorance that is in them, DUE to their hardness of heart."

No, it doesn't reason exactly against me. I was saying the same thing. These people are ignorant, hardened, lifeless, and stupid. They don't have much going for them, do they? But here's the interesting part: Paul admonishes the Ephesians to "no longer" (Eph. 4:17) walk in those ways. Now how does a person who is ignorant, hardened, lifeless, and stupid suddenly turn the switch and decide to accept all the things of God? Did the Ephesians just choose to stop doing all that, being who they were, "by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind" (Eph. 2:3)? Nope. You have to admonish people to change their very natures if that's your scheme of salvation: "children of wrath, change yourselves from within!" And at that point, who really needs God?

holdon said,
"It is just utterly amazing that people can twist verses of the bible around to make them say exactly the opposite!"

I know, isn't it?! Like in every place where it says the elect are predestined to salvation, it really means Christ was predestined! We've got to be careful to avoid assuring people that they're actually saved.

holdon said,
"I'm sorry but anyone who can read must conclude that 'You have got it so backwards.'"

Yes. You're right. I'm so very, very wrong.







So! Van shares your sentiment.






Van said,
"Jesus tells us the answer in Matthew 13:1-23. Folks that love darkness and have hardened their hearts will not be able to understand the gospel, they are in the condition of total spiritual inability. But the other three kinds of folks do not reject, but receive the gospel."

Are you honestly telling me that there are people who do not have any capacity to understand the gospel? Those people who "love darkness" will never be saved, because, as you say, "they are in the condition of total spiritual inability"?

First of all, only one group of the four Jesus mentioned in that passage actually "received" the gospel, if we take receiving the gospel to mean more than "walking down the aisle to the altar" and "saying the sinner's prayer." That is, only one group actually received the gospel. The other three did not, because it had no effect.

But what else? You're telling me that there never was a person saved who had "hardened their hearts," which, again, the passage in Matthew doesn't even mention--

(Boy, you sure are making a lot of things up, Van)

--you're telling me that no one who has ever had a hardened heart was saved, because they're in a condition of "TOTAL SPIRITUAL INABILITY," and since it depends upon them to have faith, and they are TOTALLY SPIRITUALLY UNABLE, then they will never be saved.

Let me get this straight, then, Van. God is saying to those people, "I'd like to save you, but you are spiritually unable, and I certainly am not going to do anything to change your ways, so I have to wait for you to turn before I do anything; even though you absolutely can do nothing, I still have to wait for you to do something."

John 3:6-8. "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

This clearly explains that it's the Holy Spirit's decision whom to give a second birth to. You explain that it's saying, "The wind blows wherever man's faith pleases," when you attest that all these things must first be preceded by man's choosing to have faith, which for some, as you've said, is no longer possible.

 

[holdon]

holdon said,
"And citing this text reasons exactly against you. They are alienated from the life of God BECAUSE of the ignorance that is in them, DUE to their hardness of heart."

No, it doesn't reason exactly against me. I was saying the same thing. These people are ignorant, hardened, lifeless, and stupid. They don't have much going for them, do they? But here's the interesting part: Paul admonishes the Ephesians to "no longer" (Eph. 4:17) walk in those ways. Now how does a person who is ignorant, hardened, lifeless, and stupid suddenly turn the switch and decide to accept all the things of God?

Why don't you read it for yourself: "if ye have heard him" Eph. 4:21. And: "your having put off according to the former conversation the old man" Eph. 4:22. And: "Wake up, thou that sleepest, and arise up from among the dead, and the Christ shall shine upon thee." Eph. 5:14 And see why the Ephesians converted: Acts 19:8 "And entering into the synagogue, he spoke boldly during three months, reasoning and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.
19:9 But when some were hardened and disbelieved, speaking evil of the way before the multitude, he left them and separated the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus. 19:10 And this took place for two years, so that all that inhabited Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks."And: "and ye see and hear that this Paul has persuaded and turned away a great crowd, not only of Ephesus, but almost of all Asia".
So, why would reasoning to a "lifeless and "stupid" do anything at all??? But it did: a great crowd was persuaded by Paul. Get with the facts.

Did the Ephesians just choose to stop doing all that, being who they were, "by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind" (Eph. 2:3)? Nope. You have to admonish people to change their very natures if that's your scheme of salvation: "children of wrath, change yourselves from within!" And at that point, who really needs God?

??? How did a great crowd turn away from their previous beliefs?

Like in every place where it says the elect are predestined to salvation

Show me just one passage where it says that!

 

[nobdysfool]

Eph. 1:4 says that we are chosen (elected) before the world's foundation.
The condition there is: "in Him". We were chosen in Him at that time.

Who else would we be chosen in??? There is salvation in no other.

The purpose there is: "to be blameless in love before Him".
Nothing there about salvation, eternal life, etc.., because before the world's foundation the Fall was not contemplated.

Ah, so being blameless is no the same as being saved? Ar the saved blameless before God? They'd have to be, or they couldn't be saved, seeing that they are not blameless. by definition, one who is saved is blameless before God, by reason of Christ, right?

And, you have stepped into a place I don't think you really want to go. If you say the Fall wasn't contemplated before the world's foundation, then of necessity you're saying that God didn't know that Adam would sin. But scripture says that Christ was the slain lamb from the foundation of the world. Now, why would God provide the lamb of sacrifice, if He didn't know Adam would sin? If God didn't know something, then you are promoting Open Theism. It is axiomatic that God is Omniscient. That means "all-knowing". It means there is NOTHING He does not know, did not know, or will not know. There was never a time or in eternity past where God did not know as much as He knows now, and there will never be a time, or in eternity yet to be, where He knows more than He does now.

Same in Romans 8 where we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He could be the firstborn among many brethren.

If one is conformed to the image of Christ, one is necessarily saved. There is no such thing as a Christ-like unsaved person. Any way you slice it, the bottom line of predestination is unto salvation.

But now that the Fall has happened, the Son had to become flesh and die to expiate our sins and to take sin away from this world. Therefore God puts into effect the means for those predestined: He calls. And those that obey that call, He justifies. And those He justifies, He also glorifies.

So Adam's sin took God by surprise? God had to go to "Plan B" (which according to you, He hadn't even considered), because Adam screwed up?

Nice fantasy. Totally unscriptural, but I'll bet it gives some people the warm-fuzzy's to think that their salvation is contingent upon their actions, and how smart and good and better they are than those dirty heathen sinners....

 

[nill]

Why don't you read it for yourself: "if ye have heard him" Eph. 4:21. And: "your having put off according to the former conversation the old man" Eph. 4:22. And: "Wake up, thou that sleepest, and arise up from among the dead, and the Christ shall shine upon thee." Eph. 5:14

"To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 1:1).

The letter is not written to unbelievers; it's not about your supposed self-resurrection efforts for the heathen. The passages you cite reference the on-going sanctification for believers, not the regeneration for heathens.

And see why the Ephesians converted: Acts 19:8 "And entering into the synagogue, he spoke boldly during three months, reasoning and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.
19:9 But when some were hardened and disbelieved, speaking evil of the way before the multitude, he left them and separated the disciples, reasoning daily in the school of Tyrannus. 19:10 And this took place for two years, so that all that inhabited Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks."And: "and ye see and hear that this Paul has persuaded and turned away a great crowd, not only of Ephesus, but almost of all Asia".

Paul, by his own admission:

"And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. 2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, 4 and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God" (1 Cor. 2:1-5).

And yet you must conclude that the faith of the Ephesians apparently does rest in the wisdom of men, and not in the power of God. Do you think there might possibly be a general rule to take from that passage?

"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you" (John 14:16-17, 26).

What world is that? The entire world? (Again, clear proof that "world" does not in every case mean every last human being living on earth.) No, but we do know that some cannot receive the Holy Spirit.

"The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit" (John 3:8).

The Spirit is the one who decides who can receive it in order to be born again. The world does not otherwise know its need for salvation until the Holy Spirit reveals it, as written above in John 14 (need for salvation being part of the "truth" mentioned).

So, why would reasoning to a "lifeless and "stupid" do anything at all??? But it did: a great crowd was persuaded by Paul. Get with the facts.

Read above. Unless you'd like to admit along with Van that the Holy Spirit had absolutely nothing to do with men's conversion, least of all the most influential apostle in Christendom:

Van: "[L]ets look at Paul's conversion. He believed in God and thought He was serving God by going after believers in Christ. So he was mistaken about Christ, but had heard and learned from the Father about the Messiah. At this point, Christ confronts Paul on the road. Paul is convinced that Jesus is the Christ, and that Christ has appointed him to be a servant. And Paul makes the decision not be disobedient. (Acts 26:19)."

Do you see anything about the Holy Spirit there? I sure don't. Let's check again:

Van: "[L]ets look at Paul's conversion. He believed [credit towards Paul's favorable decisions] in God and thought He was serving God by going after believers in Christ. So he was mistaken [about Paul's intellectual assent] about Christ, but had heard and learned [more choices on Paul's part] from the Father about the Messiah. At this point, Christ confronts Paul [so what] on the road. Paul is convinced [oh, this is what matters--Paul's ability to perform cognizant functions] that Jesus is the Christ, and that Christ has appointed him to be a servant. And Paul makes the decision [about Paul's good works] not be disobedient. (Acts 26:19)."

Anything about being transformed? Nope. Apparently, Van thinks that when preachers call people down to the altar to say the Almighty Sinner's Prayer, that the Holy Spirit isn't even involved.

"And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules" (Eze. 36:26-27).

God is sovereign in the salvation of sinners.

 

[Van]

Hi Neal,

Are you honestly telling me that there are people who do not have any capacity to understand the gospel? Those people who "love darkness" will never be saved, because, as you say, "they are in the condition of total spiritual inability"?

Yes, that is and has been my position. It is what scripture teaches in several passages. The mistake to assert this condition applies to all mankind.

First of all, only one group of the four Jesus mentioned in that passage actually "received" the gospel, if we take receiving the gospel to mean more than "walking down the aisle to the altar" and "saying the sinner's prayer." That is, only one group actually received the gospel. The other three did not, because it had no effect.

Sorry but no. Three of the four understood the gospel, and they received it with joy. Only one group's faith was credited as righteousness. But the others, with more "watering" might develop "roots" and discard their worldly treasures." We are not only to plant but also to cultivate and water!

But what else? You're telling me that there never was a person saved who had "hardened their hearts," which, again, the passage in Matthew doesn't even mention--

Yes, those like the seed beside the path, do not understand nor receive the gospel, and they are not saved. But what of the rocky soil, they have hardened their hearts to a degree but not so much that the word of God did not penitrate. There is hope for them. We are called to cultivate them, to water them and strengthen their faith.

Let me get this straight, then, Van. God is saying to those people, "I'd like to save you, but you are spiritually unable, and I certainly am not going to do anything to change your ways, so I have to wait for you to turn before I do anything; even though you absolutely can do nothing, I still have to wait for you to do something."

Neal, you seem to be working overtime to find fault. Not what I said at all. We are to cultivate, to plant and to water. I believe the people in the first group, those who love darkness, can change and subsequently become open to the gospel. But in their condition as described in Matthew 13, they will not receive the gospel, nor even understand it.

This clearly explains that it's the Holy Spirit's decision whom to give a second birth to. You explain that it's saying, "The wind blows wherever man's faith pleases," when you attest that all these things must first be preceded by man's choosing to have faith, which for some, as you've said, is no longer possible.

Not what I said. Why not address my actual position?

We do not save ourselves, it does not depend on the man that wills. It is God who has mercy upon whom He has mercy. He is the one who credits our faith as righteousness, we do not put ourselves in Christ, He does.

 

[nill]

Dear Van,

I think I give up.

Yours,
Neal.

 

[Van]

Hi Neal, the inner call is a fiction, there is no support for it in Paul's conversion. No verse says the Holy Spirit softened the heart of an unregenerate so they were be unable to not fully believe the gospel. Irresistible grace is demonstrated false by Matthew 23:13, where men are entering heaven, and therefore under the influence of the supposed Irresistible Grace of Calvinism, yet are turned aside by false doctrine.

Anything about being transformed? Nope. Apparently, Van thinks that when preachers call people down to the altar to say the Almighty Sinner's Prayer, that the Holy Spirit isn't even involved.

Apparently Neal makes this stuff up as he goes along, no quote will be provided which says Paul was not born again, regenerated, indwelt with the Holy Spirit, because of course He was. But that transformation, his regeneration, occured after he put his trust in Jesus just as scripture says.

 

[nobdysfool]

Just more repetition of the same tired mantra. Neal has pointed out many flaws in your theology. Too bad you won't listen. You've even picked up Ben johnson's error, because it serves your purpose to oppose Calvinists at all costs.

Matthew 23 does not indicate that they were never able to enter, only that they were being prevented by the actions of false teachers at that time. It is not an absolute declaration that they were never able to enter, or did not at a later time, or even immediately after Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for their actions of hindrance. The Pharisees were hindering, and Jesus removed the hindrance by His rebuke.