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Out of Context -Acts 15

Discussion in 'Messianic Judaism' started by MikhaelDavid, Dec 5, 2010.

  1. simchat_torah

    simchat_torah Got Torah?

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    Notice Acts tells them to go on to Sabbath services at synagogue and study the rest ;)
     
  2. Lulav

    Lulav The LORD is my Shepherd Staff Member Administrator CF Staff Trainer Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    That part is (convieniently) overlooked so much it isn't even funny. But even the four 'starter' catagories aren't followed anyway so it shows that there was a new Judaism sect forming at that time and a completley different new religion with a few elements from Judaism that formed and took over. :doh:
     
  3. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    I do not know what standards were available at that time for the God fearers to be able to sit and learn in the synagogues at that time, but do not think it was unusual to have a minimum of requirements just as they have today...
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2011
  4. Lulav

    Lulav The LORD is my Shepherd Staff Member Administrator CF Staff Trainer Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    What Christian of today would build a synagogue? I dare say that would be a rare bird indeed! :)
     
  5. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    The MJ I attend call their place a synagogue..
     
  6. ContraMundum

    ContraMundum Messianic Jewish Christian Supporter

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    It doesn't actually say that at all, does it? It is an assumption cast onto the text by a few MJs. It says this:

    Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

    That's all.

    There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that Gentile Christians were ever instructed to learn the Law from the Pharisees or any other Christ denying sect by attending their synagogues. Why would Gentiles be instructed to learn the Law from unbelieving heretics?

    Most Christians understand the comment on 15:21 without having to insert words into the text. It's bad exegetical practice to cast our opinions on to the written words.
     
  7. Shimshon

    Shimshon Well-Known Member

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    Exactly my thought as well.

    Also, it's quite telling that the 'assumption' is not mentioned at all in the actual letter in verses 23-29. Seems the apostles did not care to mention this assumption to the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia.
     
  8. ContraMundum

    ContraMundum Messianic Jewish Christian Supporter

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    A very fine point indeed! :thumbsup:
     
  9. simchat_torah

    simchat_torah Got Torah?

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    Perhaps you misunderstood me. I did not imply that the Gentiles were to follow all of the Law. I explicitly said:
    "Acts tells them to go on to Sabbath servicesat synagogue and study the rest"

    Now who's reading into who Contra? ;)

    I don't think I left the boundaries of what the text plainly states. They were to:
    1) Go to synagogue
    2) Hear the Torah
    3) On Sabbath

    That is all I intended to imply. Anything beyond that is assumed on your part :)

    I just wanted to point out that so many forget those three requirements. Christians, in general, don't adhere to the above.
     
  10. Lulav

    Lulav The LORD is my Shepherd Staff Member Administrator CF Staff Trainer Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    James makes the comment to the assembly, it was not a directive to be read to the Gentiles.

    Those who had brought up this subject were Jewish believers.

    James was addressing Jewish believers about the schooling of the neophytes to the faith. He was the one who assumed that they were being led into the synagogues for further instruction, that is why he made the comment to the assembly after those four things that that was all they had to currently impose on them as his 'assumption' was that they would learn the rest each week by hearing the Torah read.

    Even Yeshua said to listen to the Pharisees because they sat in Moses seat. He told them to do what Moses said. How can anyone do what Moses said if you don't hear Moses read?

    1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
    2 "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
    3 So you must obey them and do everything they tell you.

    Meaning what they read in the synagogues from the Torah.
     
  11. yedida

    yedida Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

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    I quite agree. James was speaking of those Gentiles who were so fresh out of the frying pan they were still fizzling. It seems there were many Gentile believers in the God of Jacob (such as Cornelius) who probably went to synagogue weekly. Yhis letter was not written for them as they were already observig the Torah lifestyle, as were the Gentile converts to Judaism (now Yeshua believers).
    This was in the church's infancy, I doubt seriously that they had "chruches" at this time....maybe some home meetings, but the main meeting time and place would be Shabbat in the synagogue.
     
  12. Lulav

    Lulav The LORD is my Shepherd Staff Member Administrator CF Staff Trainer Supporter CF Senior Ambassador

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    Exactly! :thumbsup:

    Cornelius actually was a G-d fearer and was much respected by the Jews, he even built them a synagogue which he undoublty attended with his household.
     
  13. yedida

    yedida Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

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    Lulav,
    You know what's so funny about these passages of scripture "declaring all edibles as clean food to be eaten'? They love to think that Peter was acturally supposed to eat from the sheet and says "No!" but he's at a Gentile's home waiting on lunch/dinner to be served!!! I always get a chuckle when I think about that. But the Messianics trusted this Gentile, trusted his love of Hashem enough to sit at his table with him. In those days that is saying a lot.
     
  14. ContraMundum

    ContraMundum Messianic Jewish Christian Supporter

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    OK....but....no where does it instruct Gentiles to go to the synagogue.

    It simply says:

    Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
     
  15. Heber

    Heber Senior Veteran

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    It's only an implication that could be gained from the text - it is not an explicit instruction or requirement. It is unclear whether that bit of text was to be included in the letter that was to be sent. The actual letter, as recorded for us, does not mention it, but one might suppose that this was an expectation as they seemed to have agreed with the sentiment. However, at the end of the day, it has to be said that Scripture does NOT impose the requirement.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2011
  16. ContraMundum

    ContraMundum Messianic Jewish Christian Supporter

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    No way.

    You honestly think that Gentile Christians were led by the Apostles to worship with and be instructed by unbelievers, in spite of the many admonitions of the Lord (Matt 18) and the Apostles to separate from error (Rom 16, Titus 3)?

    The citation from Jesus has nothing to do with the Gentiles! (Not to mention avoiding the real issue- where is God's authority NOW)

    I realise that you are compelled to interpret this passage in such a way that pretends to assume that Gentiles are technically Jews after their conversion, given that you deny the infallibility and inspiration of the NT that says the contrary, but your assumptions about the motives of James are not found in the text. It's really that simple.

    I could counter with many texts from the NT, but you deny their authenticity anyway, so I won't bother.
     
  17. Shimshon

    Shimshon Well-Known Member

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    Well, I will.

    To quote the 'words of Messiah' alone. You have to justify these verses to fit the assumption that Yeshua was leading all his disciples to enter the synagogue to 'learn the rest' from there.

    You can find these statements in all the gospels, but I will use Luke and John here;



    Yeshua is asked about the coming of the end and he tells his followers this in his warning of hard times to come.

    Hand you over to the synagogues and persecute you. But it's implied that after this warning, they actually lead the gentiles into these synagogues?

    By the time Yeshua had healed the blind man, it was agreed that anyone who even acknowledged Yeshua and his teachings would be banned from the synagogues.

    The leaders of the synagogues who did come to trust in Yeshua did not speak of it openly for fear of being banned.
    Yeshua implicitly tells us in the bible that his followers would be banned from the synagogues.
    Yeshua told them this very thing, that they would be banned from the synagogues and when the time came they would remember that He told them so.
    All this from the mouth of Yeshua the Messiah himself. No Paul needed. So how can one believe that the apostles, his followers, Ya'akov his own brother, after his death 'implied' to lead all the genitles into these synagogues?

    I agree, No way.
     
  18. yedida

    yedida Ruth Messianic, joining Israel, Na'aseh v'nishma!

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    That is an excellent argument, Shimshon, one that I had missed. It does have one minor flaw though, and that is that's it's spoken of in future tense. This means Yeshua could be speaking of a time frame within the up-coming year or in 10years or even in hundreds of years from that time, but it does not have to be the first choice of within the next few years to come.....
    Remember, in the beginning the Yeshua followers were just considered another sect of Judaism and that is why we believe that verse is saying the new converts will get the rest of their instructions through the synagogue weekly.
     
  19. Shimshon

    Shimshon Well-Known Member

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    Not sure how you missed this. Did you read the verses quoted?

    They 'were' afraid. Because the Jews had 'already' agreed that anyone who acknowledged Yeshua as the Messiah would be banned from the synagogue.

    Present tense. They were afraid of being banned because it was already a ruling.

    Again, present tense. The leaders did trust in him, and did not say so openly for fear of being banned from the synagogue.
     
  20. visionary

    visionary Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I. Supporter

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    :confused:
    :confused:How does attending a synagogue make you a Jew?? Even after conversion:confused: No where does it indicate that gentiles become Jews.. God fearers.. yea.. who love Yeshua the Jewish Messiah.. yeah.. :doh:but to take it any further is far from the truth..
     
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