Out of Context -Acts 15

[visionary]

Luke 21:12 But before all this, they will arrest you and persecute you, handing you over to the synagogues and prisons; and you will be brought before kings and governors. This will all be on account of me,

No need to be handed over to synagogues if there is no religious reason, like a new faith that doesn't want to continue to learn in the synagogue.

 

[yedida]

Not sure how you missed this. Did you read the verses quoted?

They 'were' afraid. Because the Jews had 'already' agreed that anyone who acknowledged Yeshua as the Messiah would be banned from the synagogue.

Present tense. They were afraid of being banned because it was already a ruling.



Again, present tense. The leaders did trust in him, and did not say so openly for fear of being banned from the synagogue.

gonna have to mull on this awhile.

 

[simchat_torah]

annnnnd then in Acts they continued attending synagogue, going to the temple, giving sacrifices, reading the torah, etc.

 

[visionary]

annnnnd then in Acts they continued attending synagogue, going to the temple, giving sacrifices, reading the torah, etc.

Amen.. There was not thought or presentations given that even Paul was creating a new faith.. for the gentiles

 

[Shimshon]

Acts 6...first mention of a synagogue.

Acts 6:9 But opposition arose from members of the Synagogue of the Freed Slaves (as it was called), composed of Cyrenians, Alexandrians and people from Cilicia and the province of Asia. They argued with Stephen,

We all know what happened to Stephen at the end of his confrontation with the Synagogue members.

Acts 13, 14 & 17 have Paul gaining believers from the Synagogues. He at times had to talk to them 'after' or took them 'aside'.

Even by the end of Acts 13 he is stating this:

"It was necessary that God's word be spoken first to you. But since you are rejecting it and are judging yourselves unworthy of eternal life - why, we're turning to the Goyim! 47 For that is what ADONAI has ordered us to do: 'I have set you as a light for the Goyim, to be for deliverance to the ends of the earth.' " 48 The Gentiles were very happy to hear this. They honored the message about the Lord, and as many as had been appointed to eternal life came to trust. 49 And the message about the Lord was carried throughout the whole region. 50 But the unbelieving Jews stirred up the women 'God-fearers' of high social standing and the leading men of the city, and they organized persecution against Sha'ul and Bar-Nabba and expelled them from their district.

He went to the synagogue but they expelled him.

And by the next chapter they fair even worse for having gone into a synagogue.

Acts 14:1 In Iconium the same thing happened - they went into the synagogue and spoke in such a way that a large number of both Jews and Greeks came to trust. 2 But the Jews who would not be persuaded stirred up the Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers. 3 Therefore, Sha'ul and Bar-Nabba remained for a long time, speaking boldly about the Lord, who bore witness to the message about his love and kindness by enabling them to perform signs and miracles. 4 However, the people of the city were divided - some sided with the unbelieving Jews, others with the emissaries. 5 Eventually the unbelievers, both Jews and Gentiles, together with their leaders, made a move to mistreat the emissaries, even to stone them; 6 but they learned of it and escaped to Lystra and Derbe, towns in Lycaonia, and to the surrounding country, 7 where they continued proclaiming the Good News.

They went to the synagogue and the outcome was the members wanted to stone them.

Acts 17 proves no better:

1 After passing through Amphipolis and Apollonia, Sha'ul and Sila came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue. 2 According to his usual practice, Sha'ul went in; and on three Shabbats he gave them drashes from the Tanakh, 3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and that "this Yeshua whom I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah." 4 Some of the Jews were persuaded and threw in their lot with Sha'ul and Sila, as did a great many of the Greek men who were "God-fearers," and not a few of the leading women. 5 But the unbelieving Jews grew jealous; so they got together some vicious men from the riffraff hanging around in the market square, collected a crowd and started a riot in the city. They attacked Jason's house, hoping to bring Sha'ul and Sila out to the mob. 6 But when they didn't find them, they dragged Jason and some other brothers before the city authorities and shouted, "These men who have turned the whole world upside down have come here too! 7 And Jason has let them stay in his home! All of them are defying the decrees of the Emperor; because they assert that there is another king, Yeshua!" 8 Their words threw the crowd and the authorities into a turmoil, 9 so that only after Jason and the others had posted bond did they let them go.

10 But as soon as night fell, the brothers sent Sha'ul and Sila off to Berea. As soon as they arrived, they went to the synagogue. 11 Now the people here were of nobler character than the ones in Thessalonica; they eagerly welcomed the message, checking the Tanakh every day to see if the things Sha'ul was saying were true. 12 Many of them came to trust, as did a number of prominent Greek women and not a few Greek men. 13 But when the unbelieving Jews of Thessalonica learned that the word of God had been proclaimed by Sha'ul in Berea as well, they went there too to make trouble and agitate the crowds. 14 The brothers sent Sha'ul away at once to go down to the seacoast, while Sila and Timothy stayed behind.

They went to the synagogue but the outcome was riotous mobs against them and their Mission, Messiah.


Acts 18

4 Sha'ul also began carrying on discussions every Shabbat in the synagogue, where he tried to convince both Jews and Greeks. 5 But after Sila and Timothy arrived from Macedonia, Sha'ul felt pressed by the urgency of the message and testified in depth to the Jews that Yeshua is the Messiah. 6 However when they set themselves against him and began hurling insults,

he shook out his clothes and said to them, "Your blood be on your own heads! For my part, I am clean; from now on, I will go to the Goyim!" 7 So he left them and went into the home of a "God-fearer" named Titius Justus, whose house was right next door to the synagogue.

He went to the synagogue and they turned against him, and he said he will no longer go to the synagogues. Probably for fear of death. Just like Yehsua said.

Acts 19

8 Sha'ul went into the synagogue; and for three months he spoke out boldly, engaging in dialogue and trying to persuade people about the Kingdom of God. 9 But some began hardening themselves and refusing to listen; and when these started defaming the Way before the whole synagogue, Sha'ul withdrew, took the talmidim with him, and commenced holding daily dialogues in Tyrannus's yeshivah

Went to the synagogue and eventually the unbelieving Jews started defaming the Mission before the whole synagogue. So Paul uses the Yeshiva next door. Spite? Or divine convienence?

And now in Acts 22 a reference to what Paul did to all believers who attended synagogue before his conversion.

Acts 22:19 I said, 'Lord, they know themselves that in every synagogue I used to imprison and flog those who trusted in you;

Again, to imply that the leaders where leading new gentiles into these synagogues is implausable.

Last mention of a synagogue in Acts

Acts 26:11 Often I went from one synagogue to another, punishing them and trying to make them blaspheme; and in my wild fury against them, I even went so far as to persecute them in cities outside the country.

Yet, the apostles were leading believers into these synagogues?

So yes, Shaul and the emisaries did enter synagogues after Yeshua told them what would happen. And that is just what happened. Unbelieving Jews countered the Mission Paul was given.

Annnnnnnd so on and so on to today.

 

[Lulav]

No need to be handed over to synagogues if there is no religious reason, like a new faith that doesn't want to continue to learn in the synagogue.

'

But who is 'they'? And did this not happen? ie Saul?

Also this was for political reasons not necessarily religious.

 

[visionary]

Acts 24:12
And they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither raising up the people, neither in the synagogues, nor in the city:

Now how in the world can Paul claim this, when those who hate Yeshua as their Messiah are looking for reasons to bring condemnation?

 

[simchat_torah]

Among a handful of verses stating similar things:

Acts 17:2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,


But what we're doing I find distasteful. We're slapping together single verses out of context. Sure, we could play this game all day, and that's why the Bible seems so confusing. However, within context, both cultural and textual, the story becomes rather clear.

Unless the readers request, I think we should let them decide Shimshon.

 

[Lulav]

The first mention of a synagogue is in the book of Matthew. It is also mentioned in Mark, Luke and John.

Yeshua attended synagogue in many places.

It speaks of the Apostles attending synagogue services in the Galilee in the book of Mark.

The gospels speak of Yeshua healing the Nasi of a synagogue in the Galilee as well.

It speaks of him teaching in the synagogue on more than one Shabbat......................

 

[Lulav]

Acts 6...first mention of a synagogue.

We all know what happened to Stephen at the end of his confrontation with the Synagogue members.

Acts 13, 14 & 17 have Paul gaining believers from the Synagogues. He at times had to talk to them 'after' or took them 'aside'.

Even by the end of Acts 13 he is stating this:
He went to the synagogue but they expelled him.

And by the next chapter they fair even worse for having gone into a synagogue.

They went to the synagogue and the outcome was the members wanted to stone them.

Acts 17 proves no better:

They went to the synagogue but the outcome was riotous mobs against them and their Mission, Messiah.


Acts 18


He went to the synagogue and they turned against him, and he said he will no longer go to the synagogues. Probably for fear of death. Just like Yehsua said.

Acts 19



Went to the synagogue and eventually the unbelieving Jews started defaming the Mission before the whole synagogue. So Paul uses the Yeshiva next door. Spite? Or divine convienence?

And now in Acts 22 a reference to what Paul did to all believers who attended synagogue before his conversion.

Again, to imply that the leaders where leading new gentiles into these synagogues is implausable.

Last mention of a synagogue in Acts

Yet, the apostles were leading believers into these synagogues?

So yes, Shaul and the emisaries did enter synagogues after Yeshua told them what would happen. And that is just what happened. Unbelieving Jews countered the Mission Paul was given.

Annnnnnnd so on and so on to today.

Funny how only Paul reports having this trouble, seems it followed him wherever he went. Maybe the reason they were being thrown out of the synagogues after he went on a bit was because they realized he was teaching against Torah. Where is the proof that James, John, Simon or the others were thrown out?

He was speaking to them not Paul when he said this, so why should it apply to Paul if he really said it?

They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh , that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

Who is 'they'? Many obviously want to pin this on the Pharisees. But was not Paul a proclaimed Pharisee? Was it not he who was going into the synagogues and putting the believers in jail? As well as consenting to their deaths?

By his own words:

" And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women. "

 

[ContraMundum]

Well done Shimshon.

 

[Lulav]

Originally Posted by Lulav

James makes the comment to the assembly, it was not a directive to be read to the Gentiles.

Those who had brought up this subject were Jewish believers.

James was addressing Jewish believers about the schooling of the neophytes to the faith. He was the one who assumed that they were being led into the synagogues for further instruction, that is why he made the comment to the assembly after those four things that that was all they had to currently impose on them as his 'assumption' was that they would learn the rest each week by hearing the Torah read.

Even Yeshua said to listen to the Pharisees because they sat in Moses seat. He told them to do what Moses said. How can anyone do what Moses said if you don't hear Moses read?

1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
2 "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
3 So you must obey them and do everything they tell you.

Meaning what they read in the synagogues from the Torah.
​

No way.

You honestly think that Gentile Christians were led by the Apostles to worship with and be instructed by unbelievers, in spite of the many admonitions of the Lord (Matt 18) and the Apostles to separate from error (Rom 16, Titus 3)?

CM, I'm not sure what Matt 18 has to do with this, perhaps you will elaborate? I don't get what you mean by 'unbelievers'. Yeshua addressed the Jews and called them brothers, as they were and still are.

Are you implying that those Yeshua was speaking of in the synagogues were all believers at that time? Yes, many Pharisees believed, but he is not making that distinction here, They most certainly believed in G-d and his Holy Torah, fanatically in some cases, but certainly believers.

I would not call the listening to of the reading of Torah as 'error', not at all, actually not being read the Torah is error if you ask me.

The citation from Jesus has nothing to do with the Gentiles! (Not to mention avoiding the real issue- where is God's authority NOW)

So what Yeshua said then has no merit now? Why then did he spend that time teaching them these things? If it has nothing to do with Gentiles, then Gentiles cannot be disciples then.

I realise that you are compelled to interpret this passage in such a way that pretends to assume that Gentiles are technically Jews after their conversion, given that you deny the infallibility and inspiration of the NT that says the contrary, but your assumptions about the motives of James are not found in the text. It's really that simple.

No, it is not that simple. Much about James is not found in the NT because the church decided that they liked what Paul had to say much better. How one could dismiss the brother of Yeshua so lightly is beyond me but very telling. One called 'Adelphotheos' by the early Church, sure deserves better. Why would I want to interpret this to mean that Gentiles are Jews? I do believe that circumcision is not required for salvation, but for obedience to the Gentile just as to the Jew to be circumcised according to the Torah in obedience to it. Circumcision never saved a Jew, but it brought him into the covenant. Have you read Robert Robert Eisenman's "James the brother of Jesus" ?

I could counter with many texts from the NT, but you deny their authenticity anyway, so I won't bother.

Authenticity is one thing interpretation is another. I am using these verses to be interpreted differently than the Gentile church preferred to interpret them.

 

[ContraMundum]

Lulav, sorry, I just don't have the time to elaborate.

Bottom line: Rabbinic Jews are not believers, and the Pharisees no longer have authority over God's people. We are commanded in scripture to separate from heretics and not to sit under unbelievers. This is why Acts 15:21 makes no sense the new way some people are trying to interpret it.

Secondly: James may not have written as much as Paul, we simply do not know. Also, James being a relative of Jesus does not mean he was called to the same kind of ministry as Paul, and lastly I see no contradiction between them anyway.

 

[Shimshon]

Bottom line: Rabbinic Jews are not believers, and the Pharisees no longer have authority over God's people. We are commanded in scripture to separate from heretics and not to sit under unbelievers. This is why Acts 15:21 makes no sense the new way some people are trying to interpret it.

I could not agree more.
Funny, I've been saying this many years. But, when I say it here I wind up getting called an anti-semite. Even though I'm Jewish.....

In my opinion there are way too many in the Messianic movement that put themselves under the sages authority because of that verse. I have never found this a healthy decision.

Not to mention, the Pharisees were not the same people as todays Rabbinical Jews. But some seem to imply that they were. Modern Rabbinic Judaism is not the Judaism of Yeshua's day. And should not be followed as if it were.

And don't get me wrong. I think a Jew should remain in the customs that he was raised in, as long as it does not offend the Lord. I know Jews who follow the customs they were raised with and worship Yeshua. But the whole notion that the gentiles should fall under the rulings of our sages is far from what God revealed to me through Messiah.

 

[ContraMundum]

I could not agree more.
Funny, I've been saying this many years. But, when I say it here I wind up getting called an anti-semite. Even though I'm Jewish.....

I've had the same experience. It's almost like we're just not Jewish enough to meet the expectations of the Gentiles.

The fact is, you have to make a clean break regarding who you sit under when you are called out by Christ. This has always been the case, since the beginning. I have learned this the hard way.

Our Jewish gift to the church is to bring what good things we have, not tear the church down and make it look the way we want it to. Every culture and person should contribute positively to the church, and correct her only in love when necessary.

Anyway, this is not sounding like I want it to, so I will cease there.

In my opinion there are way too many in the Messianic movement that put themselves under the sages authority because of that verse. I have never found this a healthy decision.

Not to mention, the Pharisees were not the same people as todays Rabbinical Jews. But some seem to imply that they were. Modern Rabbinic Judaism is not the Judaism of Yeshua's day. And should not be followed as if it were.

Amen and amen.

And don't get me wrong. I think a Jew should remain in the customs that he was raised in, as long as it does not offend the Lord. I know Jews who follow the customs they were raised with and worship Yeshua. But the whole notion that the gentiles should fall under the rulings of our sages is far from what God revealed to me through Messiah.

Best thing I have ever read on this forum. So true, and I would further add that a good disciple of Jesus does not flaunt his customs to gain attention or validate himself.

 

[Lulav]

CM you seem to be concentrating on the Gentiles more. If what you say, that the Gentiles were not to sit under the Rabbis, then what about the Jews? Since Yeshua was speaking to Jews, if he did not trust them, why say what he did? It seems to me he did not consider them 'unbelievers', so shouldn't we take his view over our own?

You say you don't have time to elaborate, but take time to extensively agree with Shimshon (not that I mind your agreement as much as the time you felt you could spend on a reply to him and not to me).

I was hoping for some healthy discussion not like what you get when going to GT here they attack those who don't agree with them and all come in to agree with anyone that agrees with them.

 

[ContraMundum]

CM you seem to be concentrating on the Gentiles more. If what you say, that the Gentiles were not to sit under the Rabbis, then what about the Jews?

I honestly believe scripture is clear that no Christian, Jewish or Gentile, should under the spiritual instruction of someone who denies Jesus as both Messiah and Lord.

Since Yeshua was speaking to Jews, if he did not trust them, why say what he did? It seems to me he did not consider them 'unbelievers', so shouldn't we take his view over our own?

I do take his view, but I don't think it applies in regards the Pharisees today. The principle is that we should respect God's religious authorities. The Pharisees are not His authorities any longer. They were before the Resurrection, but not afterward. Jesus said "all authority is given to me", and then He sent the Apostles. They had the authority of Jesus, not the Pharisees. "As He sent me, so I send you" and "he who hears you hears Me", "whosoever sins you retain, they are retained. Whosoever sins you remit, they are remitted" (I'm paraphrasing, forgive me. I'm pressed for time)

The Apostles are our teachers, not the pharisees.

You say you don't have time to elaborate, but take time to extensively agree with Shimshon (not that I mind your agreement as much as the time you felt you could spend on a reply to him and not to me).

I didn't have to do much to agree with Shimmy. It's effortless.

I was hoping for some healthy discussion not like what you get when going to GT here they attack those who don't agree with them and all come in to agree with anyone that agrees with them.

Again, please accept my apologies.

 

[visionary]

During Yeshua's ministry... He sent many healed people to the temple for verification. .. He pointed to those sitting on the seat of Moses to their authority and how his believers should exceed them in righteous living. Since Yeshua created it all via Moses, and since the disciples continued to abide by it after his death right up to their own deaths, the authority remained.

 

[SGM4HIM]

Matthew 5:18 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

Here's another view to consider.

The Pharisees and teachers spent their entire lives studying scripture and "living righteously". The only way to exceed their righteousness was to believe the Jewish Messiah was standing in front of them. i.e. having one's righteousness derived through belief in and following Jesus, rather than following the Torah more zealously than the Pharisee's.
Note this is not an anti Torah statement as the audience was Jewish and not Gentile.

I'm am not coming against the leaders either. Most were devout, sincere, and well meaning; just misguided. We also should take heed today of this example as we are not immune from missing out.

Here's another take on Paul's mixed reception at the synagogue. He was accepted when he was attending festivals and bringing sacrifices to the temple.

He was kicked out of synagogues when he was proclaiming the post sacrifice and resurrection Messiah.

This idea was not new, either.

Isaiah 8:14It is the LORD of hosts whom you should regard as holy. And He shall be your fear, And He shall be your dread. 14 "Then He shall become a sanctuary ; But to both the houses of Israel, a stone to strike and a rock to stumble over, And a snare and a trap for the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 15 "Many will stumble over them, Then they will fall and be broken.."

 

[ContraMundum]

During Yeshua's ministry... He sent many healed people to the temple for verification. .. He pointed to those sitting on the seat of Moses to their authority and how his believers should exceed them in righteous living. Since Yeshua created it all via Moses, and since the disciples continued to abide by it after his death right up to their own deaths, the authority remained.

Only the Apostles were given authority directly from Jesus after His resurrection and after He was rejected by most Pharisees. Both Moses and the Pharisees are subordinate to Jesus and thus His chosen authorities have a superior ministry.

Of course, during His earthly ministry He sent those healed to the religious authority that was established for those times. Many of them rejected His ministry, and certainly His authority. Those that didn't reject Him are called to "mark and avoid" those who did reject Him. That means that today, we are called to mark and avoid Rabbinic Jewish rabbis, JWs, Mormon Elders, Mohammedans or whoever. The Pharisees no longer sit on Moses' seat, and we are to call no one teacher except the Lord.