simchat_torah
Got Torah?
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Notice Acts tells them to go on to Sabbath services at synagogue and study the rest
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That part is (convieniently) overlooked so much it isn't even funny. But even the four 'starter' catagories aren't followed anyway so it shows that there was a new Judaism sect forming at that time and a completley different new religion with a few elements from Judaism that formed and took over.Notice Acts tells them to go on to Sabbath services at synagogue and study the rest
That part is (convieniently) overlooked so much it isn't even funny. But even the four 'starter' catagories aren't followed anyway so it shows that there was a new Judaism sect forming at that time and a completley different new religion with a few elements from Judaism that formed and took over.
The MJ I attend call their place a synagogue..What Christian of today would build a synagogue? I dare say that would be a rare bird indeed!
Notice Acts tells them to go on to Sabbath services at synagogue and study the rest
Exactly my thought as well.It doesn't actually say that at all, does it? It is an assumption cast onto the text by a few MJs. It says this:
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
That's all.
There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that Gentile Christians were ever instructed to learn the Law from the Pharisees or any other Christ denying sect by attending their synagogues. Why would Gentiles be instructed to learn the Law from unbelieving heretics?
Most Christians understand the comment on 15:21 without having to insert words into the text. It's bad exegetical practice to cast our opinions on to the written words.
Exactly my thought as well.
Also, it's quite telling that the 'assumption' is not mentioned at all in the actual letter in verses 23-29. Seems the apostles did not care to mention this assumption to the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia.
Perhaps you misunderstood me. I did not imply that the Gentiles were to follow all of the Law. I explicitly said:Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
That's all.
There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that Gentile Christians were ever instructed to learn the Law from the Pharisees or any other Christ denying sect by attending their synagogues. Why would Gentiles be instructed to learn the Law from unbelieving heretics?
Most Christians understand the comment on 15:21 without having to insert words into the text. It's bad exegetical practice to cast our opinions on to the written words.
It doesn't actually say that at all, does it? It is an assumption cast onto the text by a few MJs. It says this:
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
That's all.
There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that Gentile Christians were ever instructed to learn the Law from the Pharisees or any other Christ denying sect by attending their synagogues. Why would Gentiles be instructed to learn the Law from unbelieving heretics?
Most Christians understand the comment on 15:21 without having to insert words into the text. It's bad exegetical practice to cast our opinions on to the written words.
Exactly my thought as well.
Also, it's quite telling that the 'assumption' is not mentioned at all in the actual letter in verses 23-29. Seems the apostles did not care to mention this assumption to the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia.
James makes the comment to the assembly, it was not a directive to be read to the Gentiles.
Those who had brought up this subject were Jewish believers.
James was addressing Jewish believers about the schooling of the neophytes to the faith. He was the one who assumed that they were being led into the synagogues for further instruction, that is why he made the comment to the assembly after those four things that that was all they had to currently impose on them as his 'assumption' was that they would learn the rest each week by hearing the Torah read.
Even Yeshua said to listen to the Pharisees because they sat in Moses seat. He told them to do what Moses said. How can anyone do what Moses said if you don't hear Moses read?
1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
2 "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
3 So you must obey them and do everything they tell you.
Meaning what they read in the synagogues from the Torah.
Exactly!I quite agree. James was speaking of those Gentiles who were so fresh out of the frying pan they were still fizzling. It seems there were many Gentile believers in the God of Jacob (such as Cornelius) who probably went to synagogue weekly. Yhis letter was not written for them as they were already observig the Torah lifestyle, as were the Gentile converts to Judaism (now Yeshua believers).
This was in the church's infancy, I doubt seriously that they had "chruches" at this time....maybe some home meetings, but the main meeting time and place would be Shabbat in the synagogue.
Exactly!
Cornelius actually was a G-d fearer and was much respected by the Jews, he even built them a synagogue which he undoublty attended with his household.
Perhaps you misunderstood me. I did not imply that the Gentiles were to follow all of the Law. I explicitly said:
"Acts tells them to go on to Sabbath servicesat synagogue and study the rest"
Now who's reading into who Contra?
I don't think I left the boundaries of what the text plainly states. They were to:
1) Go to synagogue
2) Hear the Torah
3) On Sabbath
That is all I intended to imply. Anything beyond that is assumed on your part
I just wanted to point out that so many forget those three requirements. Christians, in general, don't adhere to the above.
James makes the comment to the assembly, it was not a directive to be read to the Gentiles.
Those who had brought up this subject were Jewish believers.
James was addressing Jewish believers about the schooling of the neophytes to the faith. He was the one who assumed that they were being led into the synagogues for further instruction, that is why he made the comment to the assembly after those four things that that was all they had to currently impose on them as his 'assumption' was that they would learn the rest each week by hearing the Torah read.
Even Yeshua said to listen to the Pharisees because they sat in Moses seat. He told them to do what Moses said. How can anyone do what Moses said if you don't hear Moses read?
1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
2 "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
3 So you must obey them and do everything they tell you.
Meaning what they read in the synagogues from the Torah.
Well, I will.I could counter with many texts from the NT, but you deny their authenticity anyway, so I won't bother.
Luke 21:12 But before all this, they will arrest you and persecute you, handing you over to the synagogues and prisons; and you will be brought before kings and governors. This will all be on account of me,
John 9:22 The parents said this because they were afraid of the Judeans, for the Judeans had already agreed that anyone who acknowledged Yeshua as the Messiah would be banned from the synagogue.
John 12:42 Nevertheless, many of the leaders did trust in him; but because of the P'rushim they did not say so openly, out of fear of being banned from the synagogue;
John 16:1 "I have told you these things so that you won't be caught by surprise. 2 They will ban you from the synagogue; in fact, the time will come when anyone who kills you will think he is serving God! 3
John 16:3-4 They will do these things because they have understood neither the Father nor me. 4 But I have told you this, so that when the time comes for it to happen, you will remember that I told you.
Well, I will.
To quote the 'words of Messiah' alone. You have to justify these verses to fit the assumption that Yeshua was leading all his disciples to enter the synagogue to 'learn the rest' from there.
You can find these statements in all the gospels, but I will use Luke and John here;
Yeshua is asked about the coming of the end and he tells his followers this in his warning of hard times to come.
Hand you over to the synagogues and persecute you. But it's implied that after this warning, they actually lead the gentiles into these synagogues?
By the time Yeshua had healed the blind man, it was agreed that anyone who even acknowledged Yeshua and his teachings would be banned from the synagogues.
The leaders of the synagogues who did come to trust in Yeshua did not speak of it openly for fear of being banned.
Yeshua implicitly tells us in the bible that his followers would be banned from the synagogues.
Yeshua told them this very thing, that they would be banned from the synagogues and when the time came they would remember that He told them so.
All this from the mouth of Yeshua the Messiah himself. No Paul needed. So how can one believe that the apostles, his followers, Ya'akov his own brother, after his death 'implied' to lead all the genitles into these synagogues?
I agree, No way.
It does have one minor flaw though, and that is that's it's spoken of in future tense. This means Yeshua could be speaking of a time frame within the up-coming year or in 10years or even in hundreds of years from that time, but it does not have to be the first choice of within the next few years to come.....
They 'were' afraid. Because the Jews had 'already' agreed that anyone who acknowledged Yeshua as the Messiah would be banned from the synagogue.John 9:22 The parents said this because they were afraid of the Judeans, for the Judeans had already agreed that anyone who acknowledged Yeshua as the Messiah would be banned from the synagogue.
John 12:42 Nevertheless, many of the leaders did trust in him; but because of the P'rushim they did not say so openly, out of fear of being banned from the synagogue;
How does attending a synagogue make you a Jew?? Even after conversion No where does it indicate that gentiles become Jews.. God fearers.. yea.. who love Yeshua the Jewish Messiah.. yeah.. but to take it any further is far from the truth..No way.
You honestly think that Gentile Christians were led by the Apostles to worship with and be instructed by unbelievers, in spite of the many admonitions of the Lord (Matt 18) and the Apostles to separate from error (Rom 16, Titus 3)?
The citation from Jesus has nothing to do with the Gentiles! (Not to mention avoiding the real issue- where is God's authority NOW)
I realise that you are compelled to interpret this passage in such a way that pretends to assume that Gentiles are technically Jews after their conversion, given that you deny the infallibility and inspiration of the NT that says the contrary, but your assumptions about the motives of James are not found in the text. It's really that simple.
I could counter with many texts from the NT, but you deny their authenticity anyway, so I won't bother.