Our Lady of Guadalupe?

[Mary7]

I am sorry that you have experienced so much sorrow and suffering Mary. Mary the mother of God did too. She watched her perfect Son die on the cross. At the foot of that cross Christs tells Mary "here is your son" and to John "here is your mother."

I know how it is to carry a heavy cross in this life. I will pray for you to find contentment and happiness in your search. The Catholic church has a lot to offer. I hope you can see that.

Yes, and since we have the same name I have always felt a 'tie' with her but not to the p oint of praying to her
This is a major issue for me. I no longer belong to the Protestants so I am dangling at the moment lol

 

[PanDeVida]

I call myself Mary because that is what my parents named me.
It will be Jesus who takes me there. He is my only advocate with the Father.

1 john 2:1
if anyone does sin, we have an advocate who pleads our case before the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who is truly righteous.

Romans 8:34b, ESV Christ Jesus… is at the right hand of God…. interceding for us.

Hebrews 7:24-25, NIV but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Timothy 2:5, NLT …there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity… Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:34, ESV Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died – more than that, who was raised – who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

Now, they could have mentioned Mary in these and other verses but no where are we told to have her intercede for us. Why did no one write this down with all the other scriptures? I have not really been able to find anything written in the teachings of the Apostolic fathers.. might be there but have not found it yet.

I think that I will not be able to join the RCC due to the insistence of having someone other than Jesus as intercessor. That contradicts Scripture.

Mary, can I ask you to intercede / pray for me, to God? Mary, if you answer "YES" then you contradict yourself, because the saints in heaven are alive and well, just like you and I, you can find this proof in the Scriptures.

have you not read: Matthew 17: 2,3,

Matthew 17: 2And he was transfigured before them. And his face did shine as the sun: and his garments became white as snow. 3And behold there appeared to them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Mary, Moses and Elias are alive and well, they are not dead but Alive and can pray for us.

Mary, does a man in hell, have more faith to cry out to Father Abraham than all protestants? Both Abraham and the rich man in hell, were carrying on a conversation with one another, how much more a Christian crying out to Father Abraham for intercession, will be heard.

Luke 16: 19There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen; and feasted sumptuously every day. 20And there was a certain beggar, named Lazarus, who lay at his gate, full of sores, 21Desiring to be filled with the crumbs that fell from the rich man's table, and no one did give him; moreover the dogs came, and licked his sores. 22And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom. And the rich man also died: and he was buried in hell. 23And lifting up his eyes when he was in torments, he saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom: 24And he cried, and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame. 25And Abraham said to him: Son, remember that thou didst receive good things in thy lifetime, and likewise Lazareth evil things, but now he is comforted; and thou art tormented. 26And besides all this, between us and you, there is fixed a great chaos: so that they who would pass from hence to you, cannot, nor from thence come hither. 27And he said: Then, father, I beseech thee, that thou wouldst send him to my father's house, for I have five brethren, 28That he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torments. 29And Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30But he said: No, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will do penance. 31And he said to him: If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, if one rise again from the dead.

Mary, truth is a man by the name of Lazarus, was raised from the dead by Jesus Christ. Amen Amen


Mark 12: 26 ...I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? 27He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You therefore do greatly err.

Mary, "you therefore do greatly err".

 

[Goatee]

I am not trying to argue but I think too much was given to that one verse where John was told she was now his mother. I cannot see an entire doctrine based on just that and the verses in Luke.

Well, i believe that Jesus gave us His Mother.

 

[Tomm]

I am not trying to argue but I think too much was given to that one verse where John was told she was now his mother. I cannot see an entire doctrine based on just that and the verses in Luke.

That's Lord Jesus' words, do you need more proof ?

Also, think about: the Cana Wedding.

 

[SaNcTaMaRiA]

Doctrine is founded based on scripture and tradition. Christianity started out as an oral tradition because most believed Christ would be returning soon. When He didn't for a few years they decided it would be best to get it written down. Sola Scripture is non sense. How could you tell early Christians to follow it. There was no scripture.

At the end of the day the church does not demand you pray to Mary. However, you're surely missing out on a power intercessor.

 

[ChurchMilitant]

For me, when I look at the apparitions that have happened, other than their successful predictions, Ik that intercession of Mary and saints has been done for nearly 2000 years, and it was there before the Romans had stopped persecution of Christians. The Holy Apostles also tell us to maintain the traditions.

1 Corinthians 11:2
2 Thessalonians 2:15
2 Thessalonians 3:6

For the first few centuries of Christianity, there was no Bible canon, and for some of those years, there was not even any Bible. Tradition was the only thing that was there, and it is justified in sacred scripture(Bible)/tradition for the intercession of saints.

 

[Mary7]

I, of course, understand that those that have died are still living.
I understand there was no Bible until around 350 AD
But since we do have the Bible and it is extremely important then we should adhere to it.
I do not discount all tradition but tradition should line up with the written words and also not contradict it.
I cannot find anywhere we are told to ask those who have died to intercede for us.. even tho they are alive and yes we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses. However there are multitudes of scriptures telling us that our advocate and intercessor is Jesus and also the Holy Spirit. No where does it say to ask Mary or a saint to pray. Those we ask to pray are alive on earth that we can actually communicate with verbally.
The first recorded prayer to Mary was not until the 400's. 400 years is a long time.. our country is only about half that age.
If it was written SOMEWHERE that the early church did this, I would love to see it because I cannot find it (yet). A writing from the Apostolic fathers (the ones taught by the apostles). I have the book and am working my way thru it.

Mary at the wedding feast is not enough to base this on nor is 'son behold thy mother'.
I am still seeking answers to this and actually hoping I will find them, but so far nothing is convincing me that is correct.

 

[ChurchMilitant]

It was not in the 400s that we find prayer to Mary was done. It was actually done in the 3rd century, which is the 200s.

Here is also another article: The oldest known Marian prayer is from Egypt

In terms of the vast amount of biblical evidence of the intercession of saints in sacred scripture, it's justified in Rev 5:8, and Rev. 8:3–4.

Mark 12:26-27 tells us that Our Lord is the God of the Living, and not of the dead. The God of Abraham, Isaac, etc is a God of living, meaning this people are living, they are not dead. Furthermore, Matthew 17:1-8 shows us that Moses and Elias are living men, they are not dead. As you know, we are told to ask for righteous people to pray for us(James 5:16). Therefore, we should ask for saints for Help. Jeremiah 15:1 tells us that Moses and Samuel also ask God for mercy on Earth, and 2nd Maccabees 15:14 justifies this(2nd Maccabees are justified texts in the Bible, but that's another debate).

 

[Mary7]

It was not in the 400s that we find prayer to Mary was done. It was actually done in the 3rd century, which is the 200s.

Here is also another article: The oldest known Marian prayer is from Egypt

In terms of the vast amount of biblical evidence of the intercession of saints in sacred scripture, it's justified in Rev 5:8, and Rev. 8:3–4.

Mark 12:26-27 tells us that Our Lord is the God of the Living, and not of the dead. The God of Abraham, Isaac, etc is a God of living, meaning this people are living, they are not dead. Furthermore, Matthew 17:1-8 shows us that Moses and Elias are living men, they are not dead. As you know, we are told to ask for righteous people to pray for us(James 5:16). Therefore, we should ask for saints for Help. Jeremiah 15:1 tells us that Moses and Samuel also ask God for mercy on Earth, and 2nd Maccabees 15:14 justifies this(2nd Maccabees are justified texts in the Bible, but that's another debate).

Thank you. Now if I could just see where the Apostolic Fathers did this
As I have said, I know those that have died are alive.. I just dont see anywhere it says to ask THEM for help. It is implied in all scripture that it is the living (on earth) we ask.

 

[ChurchMilitant]

Thank you. Now if I could just see where the Apostolic Fathers did this
As I have said, I know those that have died are alive.. I just dont see anywhere it says to ask THEM for help. It is implied in all scripture that it is the living (on earth) we ask.

Mary in the Early Church - Dr. Mark Miravalle

and The Devotion to the Virgin Mary in the Early Church - Early Christians

 

[Mary7]

Mary in the Early Church - Dr. Mark Miravalle

and The Devotion to the Virgin Mary in the Early Church - Early Christians

Thank you, that was helpful.
Most of it seems to be about the early church defending her virginity against heretics and her title 'Mother of God' which all Christians understand. The virgin birth can not be debated.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Thank you, that was helpful.
Most of it seems to be about the early church defending her virginity against heretics and her title 'Mother of God' which all Christians understand. The virgin birth can not be debated.

There are many Christians of the Fundamentalist sort who vehemently deny that Mary was the 'Mother of God'. They see such a statement as simple blasphemy. They are anti-Marian. They don't understand the teaching of the faith and they strenuously will not accept it. They think any honor given to Mary is an honor subtracted from God. And they do poison the well.

I'm not describing you, or the many other Protestants who are aware of the teaching that 'all generations shall call her blessed'. I'm just pointing out that there are fringes.

 

[Mary7]

There are many Christians of the Fundamentalist sort who vehemently deny that Mary was the 'Mother of God'. They see such a statement as simple blasphemy. They are anti-Marian. They don't understand the teaching of the faith and they strenuously will not accept it. They think any honor given to Mary is an honor subtracted from God. And they do poison the well.

I'm not describing you, or the many other Protestants who are aware of the teaching that 'all generations shall call her blessed'. I'm just pointing out that there are fringes.

My understanding is that this term came about to deal with a heresy. Perhaps those people don't know about this. Even Billy Graham said that protestants do not give her enough honor.

The Council of Ephesus in AD 431 decreed that Mary is the Theotokos because her son Jesus is both God and man: one divine person with two natures (divine and human) intimately and hypostatically united.[6][

Theologically, the term "Mother of God" (and its variants) should not be taken to imply that Mary is the source of the existence of the divine person of Jesus, who existed with the Father from all eternity,[URL='https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theotokos#cite_note-19'][14] or of her Son's divinity.[15] Within the Orthodox and Catholic tradition, Mother of God has not been understood, nor been intended to be understood, as referring to Mary as Mother of God from eternity — that is, as Mother of God the Father — but only with reference to the birth of Jesus, that is, the Incarnation. To make it explicit, it is sometimes translated Mother of God Incarnate[/URL]

 

[ChurchMilitant]

Thank you, that was helpful.
Most of it seems to be about the early church defending her virginity against heretics and her title 'Mother of God' which all Christians understand. The virgin birth can not be debated.

I disagree. The links I showed you evidenced that most of them affirm Mary as Mother of God, and some of them talk about her intercession.

The Early Church Fathers on Mary, the Mother of God

 

[Mary7]

I disagree. The links I showed you evidenced that most of them affirm Mary as Mother of God, and some of them talk about her intercession.

The Early Church Fathers on Mary, the Mother of God

Every thing up until 400AD where I stopped reading, only explains that Mary is Mother of God
I have already understood this and certainly agree but there is nothing about her intercession unless it is after 400 AD which is just tooooo far past the early church for me.

I have been reading the Apostolic Fathers letters and not once has anyone mentioned her other than in mentioning the virgin birth, and nothing about her interceding for us.

I have to stand by that Jesus is the only intercessor with man and the Father as scripture plainly states in several places.
Every thing pretty much about the RCC I can accept but I cannot accept this or anything that detracts from Jesus and his sacrifice on the cross for our salvation and His being the one mediator between God and man. Why doesn't it say anywhere.. and also Mary mediates.
And you say tradition.. and I have not found anything written by anyone that shows the very early church did this.

Since the fourth century, together with the privileges already mentioned (ever-virgin and most holy), the affirmation of her other privileges proceeded. Concretely, themes about her Dormitionor her Assumption, her preservation from all sin including original sin, her task asMediatrix, and her Queenship were developed.

4 hundred years is a long long time! If the first christians (after she 'left earth') prayed to her to intercede for them to Jesus then someone should have mentioned it.

So, it remains to be seen if this will keep me from joining.
Thank you all very much for your effort but I don't think there is really anything else to say.

 

[Michie]

Good luck. I totally understand. I was at that place at one point before my conversion. God bless you!

Every thing up until 400AD where I stopped reading, only explains that Mary is Mother of God
I have already understood this and certainly agree but there is nothing about her intercession unless it is after 400 AD which is just tooooo far past the early church for me.

I have been reading the Apostolic Fathers letters and not once has anyone mentioned her other than in mentioning the virgin birth, and nothing about her interceding for us.

I have to stand by that Jesus is the only intercessor with man and the Father as scripture plainly states in several places.
Every thing pretty much about the RCC I can accept but I cannot accept this or anything that detracts from Jesus and his sacrifice on the cross for our salvation and His being the one mediator between God and man. Why doesn't it say anywhere.. and also Mary mediates.
And you say tradition.. and I have not found anything written by anyone that shows the very early church did this.

Since the fourth century, together with the privileges already mentioned (ever-virgin and most holy), the affirmation of her other privileges proceeded. Concretely, themes about her Dormitionor her Assumption, her preservation from all sin including original sin, her task asMediatrix, and her Queenship were developed.

4 hundred years is a long long time! If the first christians (after she 'left earth') prayed to her to intercede for them to Jesus then someone should have mentioned it.

So, it remains to be seen if this will keep me from joining.
Thank you all very much for your effort but I don't think there is really anything else to say.

 

[Victory123]

Every thing up until 400AD where I stopped reading, only explains that Mary is Mother of God
I have already understood this and certainly agree but there is nothing about her intercession unless it is after 400 AD which is just tooooo far past the early church for me.

I have been reading the Apostolic Fathers letters and not once has anyone mentioned her other than in mentioning the virgin birth, and nothing about her interceding for us.

I have to stand by that Jesus is the only intercessor with man and the Father as scripture plainly states in several places.
Every thing pretty much about the RCC I can accept but I cannot accept this or anything that detracts from Jesus and his sacrifice on the cross for our salvation and His being the one mediator between God and man. Why doesn't it say anywhere.. and also Mary mediates.
And you say tradition.. and I have not found anything written by anyone that shows the very early church did this.

Since the fourth century, together with the privileges already mentioned (ever-virgin and most holy), the affirmation of her other privileges proceeded. Concretely, themes about her Dormitionor her Assumption, her preservation from all sin including original sin, her task asMediatrix, and her Queenship were developed.

4 hundred years is a long long time! If the first christians (after she 'left earth') prayed to her to intercede for them to Jesus then someone should have mentioned it.

So, it remains to be seen if this will keep me from joining.
Thank you all very much for your effort but I don't think there is really anything else to say.

If she is the mother of the HEAD,(GOD), how can she NOT be the mother of the Body?

 

[Mary7]

Good luck. I totally understand. I was at that place at one point before my conversion. God bless you!

Just read this in G.K. Chesterton's conversion story:

though this is unfair to people who only profess to be human
beings, it is a fact that Catholics ought to remember. There is
many a convert who has reached a stage at which no word from
any Protestant or pagan could any longer hold him back. Only the
word of a Catholic can keep him from Catholicism.

He says there are 3 stages of conversion.
first is defending Catholics because you don't like anyone being falsely accused even tho' you have no intention of becoming catholic.
then
second stage
of the conversion. It is, broadly speaking, the stage in which the
man is unconsciously trying to be converted. And the third stage is
perhaps the truest and the most terrible. It is that in which the
man is trying not to be converted.
He has come too near to the truth, and has forgotten that truth is a
magnet, with the powers of attraction and repulsion. He is filled
with a sort of fear

 

[Mary7]

If she is the mother of the HEAD,(GOD), how can she NOT be the mother of the Body?

Again, no one has shown me anything from scripture or from the first century.. up to maybe 150 AD instructing us to go thru Mary.

 

[Victory123]

Again, no one has shown me anything from scripture or from the first century.. up to maybe 150 AD instructing us to go thru Mary.

You have been shown, you just do not accept. It is commonsense- who did Jesus Christ , God -come in the flesh of? From whom did God assume flesh from? So, through whom has God become flesh?