Our Lady of Guadalupe?

[Rhamiel]

are you familiar with the miracle of the tilma? where the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe was created on a cheap piece of cloth, really the fabric should have fallen apart by now many times over
but it is still intact, a true miracle

and making her the symbol of Mexico.

Mary is seen as a symbol of Mexico because the apparition of Our Lady of Guadalupe really kind of did a lot to MAKE the Mexican people
before this, it was Spanish and Native cultures/people
with this event, many of the Natives started to convert and the cultures started to blend more into its own thing

 

[Goatee]

Mary has brought many people closer to Jesus. She is our Holy Mother. Jesus gave Her to us at the foot of the cross.

 

[Mary7]

There's a Lutheran church that plays their services over the radio here. Occasionally I'll listen in, just to see what they do. I've heard them give sermons on how great Martin Luther was and how he should be an example to all of us.

Maybe a protestant would say that it wasn't really a "sermon" but rather a "speech" given during services, but that seems like quibbling to me. It was a praise of a man during a worship service.

I have noticed that in reading Lutheran articles that Luther himself seems to be too elevated. This is only among Lutherans.

 

[Mary7]

Mary has brought many people closer to Jesus. She is our Holy Mother. Jesus gave Her to us at the foot of the cross.

I am not trying to argue but I think too much was given to that one verse where John was told she was now his mother. I cannot see an entire doctrine based on just that and the verses in Luke.

 

[Mary7]

are you familiar with the miracle of the tilma? where the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe was created on a cheap piece of cloth, really the fabric should have fallen apart by now many times over
but it is still intact, a true miracle

Despite his recent canonization, there is no hard historical evidence that Saint Juan Diego ever really existed. In fact at the time of the controversial canonization process the abbot of the Basilica, Guillermo Schulenberg, resigned in 1996 claiming that Juan Diego had never existed and “is only a symbol.” The Nahua peasant was canonized, nonetheless, as part of a strategy to retain Indigenous Catholics who have been defecting in droves to Protestantism, especially Pentecostalism

 

[Victory123]

Just as I grow closer to thinking RCC is 'the' church for me, then I read this which pulls me back away.
Also reading and seeing photos of what appears to be a real worship by Mexico of her. Why so much attention to her?

yes? no? maybe?

Following the Conquest in 1519–21, the Spanish destroyed a temple of the mother goddess Tonantzin at Tepeyac outside Mexico City, and built a chapel dedicated to the Virgin on the site. Tonantzin (the beloved mother of the gods) was celebrated each winter solstice[10][11][12] which occurred on different dates, the winter solstice of 1531 occurred on December 12, 1531 according to the UNAM.[11][12][13] Newly converted natives continued to come from afar to worship there, often addressing the Virgin Mary as Tonantzin.[14]

The written record that does exist suggests the Catholic clergy in 16th century Mexico were deeply divided as to the orthodoxy of the cult springing up around the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe, with the Franciscan order (who had custody of the chapel at Tepeyac) being strongly opposed to the cult, while the Dominicans supported it.[23]

Fray Francisco de Bustamante, local head of the Franciscan order, delivered a sermon denouncing the cult. He expressed concern that the Archbishop was promoting a superstitious regard for an image:

Veneration is expected and is encouraged by God it is in His Word,
1 Thessalonians 5:12-13King James Version (KJV)
12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
es·teem
əˈstēm/
noun
noun: esteem
1.
respect and admiration, typically for a person. respect and admire.
ven·er·a·tion
ˌvenəˈrāSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: veneration; plural noun: venerations
great respect; reverence.
They are the same thing. Are you going to suggest Mary has NOT labored for the Faith?Is she Not above you or over you? Or do you think , this is a lie:Luke1:28
And the angel came in unto her and said, “Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women.” And Luke1:42
Luke 1:42
42 Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!
An Angel and Elisabeth both esteemed her= gave her veneration. THE WORD OF THE LORD.
Oh and I use Caps, to emphasize-give special importance or prominence to (something) in speaking or writing. So, I mean No hostility.God Bless!

 

[Mary7]

While I do believe in the 'communion of saints' I feel those scriptures are referring to people alive on earth.
I also wonder why.. since Peter , Paul etc all knew her personally, none of them wrote down anything about venerating her as is done today. She was barely mentioned in scripture.
I have read and read and read articles trying to convince myself but so far have been unable to do so. Mainly because nothing in scripture tells us to give the level of veneration I see in catholic and orthodox churches. I am currently searching in the early Fathers history. My current view is that Protestants don't do enough and Rcc might be doing too much.

Please do not get in fighting mode. I am not debating. I am seeking/searching.

 

[Victory123]

While I do believe in the 'communion of saints' I feel those scriptures are referring to people alive on earth.
I also wonder why.. since Peter , Paul etc all knew her personally, none of them wrote down anything about venerating her as is done today. She was barely mentioned in scripture.
I have read and read and read articles trying to convince myself but so far have been unable to do so. Mainly because nothing in scripture tells us to give the level of veneration I see in catholic and orthodox churches. I am currently searching in the early Fathers history. My current view is that Protestants don't do enough and Rcc might be doing too much.

Please do not get in fighting mode. I am not debating. I am seeking/searching.

I am not in fighting mode. I clearly stated , I mean no hostility . Do what works for you a little, too much,
JUST RIGHT . Barely mentioned ,according to what you know, yet first mentioned and Highly esteemed at the inception of the faith. Sounds like foundation to me, upon which all the gospels are built. Nothing of the faith could be without this great exalting by God of Mary. There is great reward in esteeming her that comes in the form of favoritism.
Luke1:42-44Mary Visits Elizabeth
…42In a loud voice she exclaimed, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43And why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44For as soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.…

 

[SaNcTaMaRiA]

You are stuck on Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura non Scriptura. Tradition has handed down many things not in Scripture. All the traditions of the early Apostles and followers cannot possibly be documented.

At the end of the day you are not required by the Church to have a devotion to the Holy Mother. Keep that in mind.

 

[Mary7]

You are stuck on Sola Scriptura. Sola Scriptura non Scriptura. Tradition has handed down many things not in Scripture. All the traditions of the early Apostles and followers cannot possibly be documented.

At the end of the day you are not required by the Church to have a devotion to the Holy Mother. Keep that in mind.

I have been Protestant all my adult life so yes.. sola scriptura is what my conscience directs but.. for months I have been really researching all these issues and also reading the Apostolic fathers etc. The only Protestant church I now consider being a part of is Anglican and there is not one in my part of the state and the Episcopal allows gay clergy.

Really? It's not a requirement? That is really good to know because that has been the major 'block' holding me back. There are other smaller things but that is the big one.

 

[SaNcTaMaRiA]

You are not required to pray the rosary or wear a scapular. The Church does teach that Mary was a Virgin, she was the mother of God, and she was assumed into heaven. These are the things the Church would want you to believe. As far as parades and devotions you are not required to go to or be a part of those.

That being said I believe with my entire heart that you will find your way to a devotion to our Blessed Mother as she has her ways of bringing her children to her.

The Marian devotion has been a part of a lot of Saints lives. Very holy people. Mary always leads us to Christ. I would suggest meditating on the Gospel and Christs first miracle at the wedding of Cana. The people came to Mary and Mary went to Jesus and Jesus provided His mother her wish instantly. Christ loved His mother a lot. He had a human heart and that human heart and that heart loved His mother.

Anglicans also have Marian devotion. As did Martin Luther. Keep that in mind.

 

[Mary7]

You are not required to pray the rosary or wear a scapular. The Church does teach that Mary was a Virgin, she was the mother of God, and she was assumed into heaven. These are the things the Church would want you to believe. As far as parades and devotions you are not required to go to or be a part of those.

That being said I believe with my entire heart that you will find your way to a devotion to our Blessed Mother as she has her ways of bringing her children to her.

The Marian devotion has been a part of a lot of Saints lives. Very holy people. Mary always leads us to Christ. I would suggest meditating on the Gospel and Christs first miracle at the wedding of Cana. The people came to Mary and Mary went to Jesus and Jesus provided His mother her wish instantly. Christ loved His mother a lot. He had a human heart and that human heart and that heart loved His mother.

Anglicans also have Marian devotion. As did Martin Luther. Keep that in mind.

I do believe the things you listed. As far as the assumption I have not seen proof of this but I don't disbelieve it. It is not an issue for me.

I would rather devote myself to Christ. I have respect for His mother but I have walked with Jesus for many many years and He has my devotion and in His blood sacrifice on the cross lies my salvation. Yes I know faith w/o works is dead etc but He alone saved me and due to that the fruit of good works comes.

 

[SaNcTaMaRiA]

I do believe the things you listed. As far as the assumption I have not seen proof of this but I don't disbelieve it. It is not an issue for me.

I would rather devote myself to Christ. I have respect for His mother but I have walked with Jesus for many many years and He has my devotion and in His blood sacrifice on the cross lies my salvation. Yes I know faith w/o works is dead etc but He alone saved me and due to that the fruit of good works comes.

Mary, have you tried praying the Divine Mercy chaplet? If not you really should!! I think you would find a lot of value in it. That is the amazing thing about our Church. We have so many devotions and so many prayers. There is something for everyone. You would need rosary beads, but that is only because the prayers of the Divine Mercy are counted on the beads of the rosary. Take a look. I think it is a devotion you will enjoy!

Also, I would be remiss to point out that just because people have a devotion to Mary does not mean they don't make Jesus the center of their lives. Jesus is and always will be the very center of all my prayers. I pray a daily rosary, daily divine mercy, the liturgy of the hours, and the small office of the BVM. Jesus is the center of all those things.

Try starting slow. Try just saying "Mary Mother of God pray for me." I mean surely that can't be considered idolatry as asking Mary (obviously a christian) for prayer is no different then asking your priest or friend for prayer. Remember, Catholics (and Anglicans and EO all believe) that the saints in heaven can hear us and pray for us. The family of God is not limited by time nor space so why couldn't they?!? You don't need to go hole hog as it were right from the start .

 

[PanDeVida]

Just as I grow closer to thinking RCC is 'the' church for me, then I read this which pulls me back away.
Also reading and seeing photos of what appears to be a real worship by Mexico of her. Why so much attention to her?

yes? no? maybe?

Following the Conquest in 1519–21, the Spanish destroyed a temple of the mother goddess Tonantzin at Tepeyac outside Mexico City, and built a chapel dedicated to the Virgin on the site. Tonantzin (the beloved mother of the gods) was celebrated each winter solstice[10][11][12] which occurred on different dates, the winter solstice of 1531 occurred on December 12, 1531 according to the UNAM.[11][12][13] Newly converted natives continued to come from afar to worship there, often addressing the Virgin Mary as Tonantzin.[14]

The written record that does exist suggests the Catholic clergy in 16th century Mexico were deeply divided as to the orthodoxy of the cult springing up around the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe, with the Franciscan order (who had custody of the chapel at Tepeyac) being strongly opposed to the cult, while the Dominicans supported it.[23]

Fray Francisco de Bustamante, local head of the Franciscan order, delivered a sermon denouncing the cult. He expressed concern that the Archbishop was promoting a superstitious regard for an image:

I noticed that you choose the name of Mary on your profile, is this your Birth Name?

I also see that you are worried about articles that you came across that has you thinking to pull back away from the Catholic Church.

No worries here, The Catholic Church does not worship Mary no more than you worship Mary, by you calling yourself Mary. As Mary took St. John to the foot of the Cross, Virgin Mary will take you to the Eucharist in the Catholic Church.

Imagine, if the rest of the Apostles ran to to the foot of Mary like John did, Virgin Mary would of took the rest of the Apostles along with her as well, to the foot of the Cross, that's what a Mother does.

 

[Mary7]

Mary is my real name.

 

[PanDeVida]

Mary is my real name.

What a Beautiful name you have, Mary.

 

[Mary7]

No worries here, The Catholic Church does not worship Mary no more than you worship Mary, by you calling yourself Mary. As Mary took St. John to the foot of the Cross, Virgin Mary will take you to the Eucharist in the Catholic Church.

.

I call myself Mary because that is what my parents named me.
It will be Jesus who takes me there. He is my only advocate with the Father.

1 john 2:1
if anyone does sin, we have an advocate who pleads our case before the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who is truly righteous.

Romans 8:34b, ESV Christ Jesus… is at the right hand of God…. interceding for us.

Hebrews 7:24-25, NIV but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Timothy 2:5, NLT …there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity… Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:34, ESV Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died – more than that, who was raised – who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

Now, they could have mentioned Mary in these and other verses but no where are we told to have her intercede for us. Why did no one write this down with all the other scriptures? I have not really been able to find anything written in the teachings of the Apostolic fathers.. might be there but have not found it yet.

I think that I will not be able to join the RCC due to the insistence of having someone other than Jesus as intercessor. That contradicts Scripture.

 

[Mary7]

What a Beautiful name you have, Mary.

Thank you
I did not use my name for my daughters however, because it means sorrow/suffering and I have found this to be true.

 

[SaNcTaMaRiA]

I call myself Mary because that is what my parents named me.
It will be Jesus who takes me there. He is my only advocate with the Father.

1 john 2:1
if anyone does sin, we have an advocate who pleads our case before the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who is truly righteous.

Romans 8:34b, ESV Christ Jesus… is at the right hand of God…. interceding for us.

Hebrews 7:24-25, NIV but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Timothy 2:5, NLT …there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity… Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:34, ESV Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died – more than that, who was raised – who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

Now, they could have mentioned Mary in these and other verses but no where are we told to have her intercede for us. Why did no one write this down with all the other scriptures? I have not really been able to find anything written in the teachings of the Apostolic fathers.. might be there but have not found it yet.

I think that I will not be able to join the RCC due to the insistence of having someone other than Jesus as intercessor. That contradicts Scripture.

I must admit I don't have time atm to dig up the early fathers teachings.

The wedding at Cana who do the party goers ask to speak to Jesus for them? They ask Mary to speak to Jesus. Why don't they just go straight to Jesus themselves? Because they knew that Mary had her Son's ear. They knew that Jesus loved His mother and would give her whatever she asked. The party goers wanted more wine. Mary asked....Mary received. Christ's first miracle is done at the request of his mother.

Mary, you continue to stick with Sola Scriptura. Tell me....did Jesus not have a childhood? We are given almost no information at all in canonized scripture about Jesus's childhood. This doesn't mean He didn't have one.

Mary, do you ask friends to pray for you? Do you ask your pastor to pray for you? Why? According to your logic above you don't need too. You can just go to Jesus yourself.

Well of course we can turn to Christ. However, Catholics have an entire family of friends to also ask for prayers. Asking Mary to pray for us is not usurping Christ's authority to intercede on our behalf to the Father. It is simply asking a close and dear friend to pray for us all the while we are praying for ourselves as well.

I am sorry that this issue is hanging you up with joining the church. I hope that you find what you are looking for. I truly do.

 

[SaNcTaMaRiA]

Thank you
I did not use my name for my daughters however, because it means sorrow/suffering and I have found this to be true.

I am sorry that you have experienced so much sorrow and suffering Mary. Mary the mother of God did too. She watched her perfect Son die on the cross. At the foot of that cross Christs tells Mary "here is your son" and to John "here is your mother."

I know how it is to carry a heavy cross in this life. I will pray for you to find contentment and happiness in your search. The Catholic church has a lot to offer. I hope you can see that.