Our Lady of Guadalupe?

Mary7

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Just as I grow closer to thinking RCC is 'the' church for me, then I read this which pulls me back away.
Also reading and seeing photos of what appears to be a real worship by Mexico of her. Why so much attention to her?

yes? no? maybe?

Following the Conquest in 1519–21, the Spanish destroyed a temple of the mother goddess Tonantzin at Tepeyac outside Mexico City, and built a chapel dedicated to the Virgin on the site. Tonantzin (the beloved mother of the gods) was celebrated each winter solstice[10][11][12] which occurred on different dates, the winter solstice of 1531 occurred on December 12, 1531 according to the UNAM.[11][12][13] Newly converted natives continued to come from afar to worship there, often addressing the Virgin Mary as Tonantzin.[14]

The written record that does exist suggests the Catholic clergy in 16th century Mexico were deeply divided as to the orthodoxy of the cult springing up around the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe, with the Franciscan order (who had custody of the chapel at Tepeyac) being strongly opposed to the cult, while the Dominicans supported it.[23]

Fray Francisco de Bustamante, local head of the Franciscan order, delivered a sermon denouncing the cult. He expressed concern that the Archbishop was promoting a superstitious regard for an image:
 

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Mary7

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Every religion has its good points and not so good points.

Its not worship. True Catholics do not worship Mary. Fact.
I believe that Catholics do not worship Mary. But what I am seeing with Guadalupe looks identical to worship.. has me backing away now.
 
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Tomm

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Just as I grow closer to thinking RCC is 'the' church for me, then I read this which pulls me back away.
Also reading and seeing photos of what appears to be a real worship by Mexico of her. Why so much attention to her?

yes? no? maybe?

Following the Conquest in 1519–21, the Spanish destroyed a temple of the mother goddess Tonantzin at Tepeyac outside Mexico City, and built a chapel dedicated to the Virgin on the site. Tonantzin (the beloved mother of the gods) was celebrated each winter solstice[10][11][12] which occurred on different dates, the winter solstice of 1531 occurred on December 12, 1531 according to the UNAM.[11][12][13] Newly converted natives continued to come from afar to worship there, often addressing the Virgin Mary as Tonantzin.[14]

The written record that does exist suggests the Catholic clergy in 16th century Mexico were deeply divided as to the orthodoxy of the cult springing up around the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe, with the Franciscan order (who had custody of the chapel at Tepeyac) being strongly opposed to the cult, while the Dominicans supported it.[23]

Fray Francisco de Bustamante, local head of the Franciscan order, delivered a sermon denouncing the cult. He expressed concern that the Archbishop was promoting a superstitious regard for an image:

In fact, God wish to grant His graces and communicate with us through Our Lady, as a result, we really need to pay some attention to Our Lady. But we do not worship her. Our Lady of Guadalupe's tilma is miraculous in itself.

Should you judge a religion merely by some of its members?
 
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SaNcTaMaRiA

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Prayer does not equal worship. Protestants have a very different understanding of worship then Catholics. Worship....true worship is seen through the Mass. We do not make sacrifices to Mary nor do we exult her as the creator of all things. Venerating Mary is not worshiping her. That being said I would agree that some folks push the boundaries of what some would perceive as acceptable. Protestants believe that prayer = worship. That is why they assume we worship Mary. They are wrong.

That being said I would let what some are doing sway you from the Church. Ya, some folks take it pretty far. You are going to have that in any denomination.
 
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Mary7

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Prayer does not equal worship. Protestants have a very different understanding of worship then Catholics. Worship....true worship is seen through the Mass. We do not make sacrifices to Mary nor do we exult her as the creator of all things. Venerating Mary is not worshiping her. That being said I would agree that some folks push the boundaries of what some would perceive as acceptable. Protestants believe that prayer = worship. That is why they assume we worship Mary. They are wrong.

That being said I would let what some are doing sway you from the Church. Ya, some folks take it pretty far. You are going to have that in any denomination.

I understand about Mary in Mass but I do not understand all the parades and celebrations and making her the symbol of Mexico. The only RCC near me is predominately Mexican and while I have NO problem with any race etc I don't think I could handle the Guadalupe.. not sure how to say it because it looks like worship from reading and seeing celebrations online. This seems different to me than the regular RCC mass.
In fact, I can see RCC losing potential converts when they witness this.
 
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SaNcTaMaRiA

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I understand about Mary in Mass but I do not understand all the parades and celebrations and making her the symbol of Mexico. The only RCC near me is predominately Mexican and while I have NO problem with any race etc I don't think I could handle the Guadalupe.. not sure how to say it because it looks like worship from reading and seeing celebrations online. This seems different to me than the regular RCC mass.
In fact, I can see RCC losing potential converts when they witness this.


I would be interested in seeing the things you are reading and watching. They shouldn't be changing the Mass. If they are then there is obviously a serious problem. I understand how someone can perceive Marian veneration as worship. I went to a liberal arts school that was 90% Methodist and ran the religious life organization for 2 years as a Catholic. The Marian veneration is a hard one for many to understand. On the outside it looks like worship. However, as you and I both know true worship comes through the Mass. The ONLY true worship to God comes through the Mass.

One of the most wonderful things about the Catholic Church is we celebrate God with the entire body of Christ. God is not constrained by time nor space. Neither is His family. We are able to speak with and ask for prayer from the entire family. We worship God with the entire family. How could we possible pick a better person then Mary to run to to ask for prayers and help? YES we can go straight to Christ, but as children we can also ask our mother for help to intercede for us!

Are some of the things folks say a little confusing, and possibly heretical? Yeah. Is it perceived by many outsiders as wrong and idolatry? Yea. I see where you are coming from, trust me I do. However, true Marian veneration and the veneration of the saints for that matter points to Christ. ALWAYS to Christ.
 
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Mary7

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our-lady-of-guadalupe-church
Oh dear lol. I was just googling Guadalupe after looking up the closest parish and saw that there were many photos of the church involved in this celebration. Google took me all over to many articles and photos of parades etc. Not a parade of Jesus but of Lady of Guadalupe
http://photoblog.statesman.com/tag/our-lady-of-guadalupe-church
 
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Michie

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Why would a Mexican tradition concerning Our Lady of Guadalupe be a make of break situation with you joining the Church or not? The teachings of the Church are what you should concentrate on. There is all sorts of info out there from the Church. Contacting a priest with your concerns is not a bad idea either. He can guide you and help you not get distracted with things you most likely are misunderstanding. It can certainly help you avoid a lot of confusion and there is no obligation or pressure to join the Church.
Oh dear lol. I was just googling Guadalupe after looking up the closest parish and saw that there were many photos of the church involved in this celebration. Google took me all over to many articles and photos of parades etc. Not a parade of Jesus but of Lady of Guadalupe
 
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Mary7

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Why would a Mexican tradition concerning Our Lady of Guadalupe be a make of break situation with you joining the Church or not? The teachings of the Church are what you should concentrate on. There is all sorts of info out there from the Church. Contacting a priest with your concerns is not a bad idea either. He can guide you and help you not get distracted with things you most likely are misunderstanding. It can certainly help you avoid a lot of confusion and there is no obligation or pressure to join the Church.

Because the Mexican tradition is being carried out in this country and with the approval of the Catholic church. I want to be able to agree with things. I have been studying the doctrines for weeks but this has blown me away
My biggest block so far has been the veneration of Mary and I am 'getting there' but this other.. no matter what you call it.. those photos show worship and not of Jesus. It actually looked like a parade honoring the Aztec goddess
 
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Michie

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The article is self explanatory. It is a feast day. The Latino community does this every December. It is not worship but a celebration. She appeared to a poor peasant and it helped evangelize Mexico. You can look up the story of Our Lady of Guadalupe on the internet and it will give you the background and why this feast day is celebrated by the Latino community.
 
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Michie

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Well it's not. :) I have been to these celebrations and they are not worship. I do think talking to a priest would be beneficial to you to help guide you.
Because the Mexican tradition is being carried out in this country and with the approval of the Catholic church. I want to be able to agree with things. I have been studying the doctrines for weeks but this has blown me away
My biggest block so far has been the veneration of Mary and I am 'getting there' but this other.. no matter what you call it.. those photos show worship and not of Jesus. It actually looked like a parade honoring the Aztec goddess
 
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SaNcTaMaRiA

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I believe it is clear that your understanding of the definition of worship is wrong. Worship is very specifically the acts carried out in the Mass. This as you can see is a parade...not a mass. It is no more worship then the 4th of July parade had by many in the United States. I will once again reiterate that the Catholic church celebrates and communes with the ENTIRE body of Christ. The ENTIRE family of God. Having a parade to honor our blessed mother is not worship. It is by definition of veneration. Why shouldn't we be proud and happy to have our blessed mother? The very person who brought the redeemer into this world. She is the one that provided the yes to God that allowed salvation to come to human kind. Having a day to celebrate and love on her is in no way idolatry or heresy. Now if these folks where making sacrifice to Mary and calling her the most powerful being etc then yes we would have a problem. They are not however. They are having a celebration celebrating one who is blessed among women.

I would suggest praying and meditating on the idea of worship and what it means within the scope of the Church and within the body of God's people. Prayer and celebration falls well short of worship.
 
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MoonlessNight

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By the standards that protestant apply to the Catholic Church, we could say that Martin Luther is being "worshiped" in celebrations of the reformation.

I imagine that protestants would object to that characterization, and that would be fair because I don't think that they are really worshiping him, but these objections mainly come from the fact that they understand those celebrations and not Catholic celebrations.
 
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SaNcTaMaRiA

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The Marian "issue" stems from the fact that protestants view songs, sermon, and prayer as worship. It is one of the biggest differences between us and the protestants. Worship is reserved for God alone. Through the Mass.
 
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MoonlessNight

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The Marian "issue" stems from the fact that protestants view songs, sermon, and prayer as worship. It is one of the biggest differences between us and the protestants. Worship is reserved for God alone. Through the Mass.

There's a Lutheran church that plays their services over the radio here. Occasionally I'll listen in, just to see what they do. I've heard them give sermons on how great Martin Luther was and how he should be an example to all of us.

Maybe a protestant would say that it wasn't really a "sermon" but rather a "speech" given during services, but that seems like quibbling to me. It was a praise of a man during a worship service.
 
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Giacinta

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Why would a Mexican tradition concerning Our Lady of Guadalupe be a make of break situation with you joining the Church or not? The teachings of the Church are what you should concentrate on. There is all sorts of info out there from the Church. Contacting a priest with your concerns is not a bad idea either. He can guide you and help you not get distracted with things you most likely are misunderstanding. It can certainly help you avoid a lot of confusion and there is no obligation or pressure to join the Church.

Yeah, concentrate on teachings of the Church.
 
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