OT: Language Question

[Chesterton]

Just thought I'd asked this here since there are multilingual people around.

I know this lady. She's about 70, intelligent, has lived in America for decades, and speaks nothing but Spanish. Never heard a word of English from her, not even a simple common word like "yes". She always says "si". Yet she understands me perfectly well when I speak English to her. I speak at normal conversational speed as I would with any English speaker, and it doesn't matter what the topic is, whether or not it's in the context of what we happen to be doing. I was puzzled by this initially so I flat out asked her "do you understand everything I say every time I'm talking"? She says "Oh, si, si!" "But you can't speak it?" "No."

So she fluently hears a language, but cannot speak it at all. I don't see how that's possible. It just seems like if you understand the words so well you would be able to speak them. Is this as strange as it seems to me, or is this common? Ever known anyone like this?

 

[gzt]

I've had people who grew up speaking a certain language but then stopped speaking it say that they were now like that. I do know that speech production is a different (and much harder) skill than listening comprehension. I wouldn't be surprised if she were really forced to that she could eke out some sentences. I don't know if this is "common" but I don't think it's terribly unprecedented.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I can see that being possible. there are folks who can understand German, but cannot read it, even though we use practically the same alphabet.

and I knew a guy when I worked as a carpenter who was Vietnamese, who was in America for more than 40 years, who could not speak English aside from a few words

 

[mothcorrupteth]

Learning multiple languages is my hobby, and in fact I'm about to begin a Master's program in ESL/Applied Linguistics. I already have a degree in behavioral Psychology, and I have experience with (in order of familiarity) German (including Zürich dialect), Latin, Spanish, Dutch, Mandarin, Russian, Modern Greek, Modern Hebrew, Japanese, French, Korean, Italian, and Icelandic.

However, despite all my study, the only one I can speak fluently is German. Why? Because you have to realize how we learn skills. It's not that there are "modules" in the brain that control different abilities that we have; it's not that there's a single "module" for language in general or even particular languages. Rather, you have countless circuits of neurons that rewire based on practical use. (Not just use. Practical use. This is something that connectionist cognitive psychology neglects; but that's another story for another time.)

Let's greatly simplify things for the sake of imagination. Imagine we have exactly six neurons:
(B) controls moving the body other than speech; INPUT: varies; OUTPUT: arms & legs
(E) detects changes in the environment other than speech; INPUT: outside world; OUTPUT: varies
(SS) controls speaking Spanish; INPUT: varies; OUTPUT: mouth and tongue
(SH) controls hearing Spanish; INPUT: ears; OUTPUT: varies

(ES) controls speaking English; INPUT: varies; OUTPUT: mouth and tongue
(EH) controls hearing English; INPUT: ears; OUTPUT: varies

Now the way neurons work is they can accept input basically anywhere on their surface from as many other neurons as you can fit in the space. But they only output in one direction, through a structure called the axon. This means that the neuron can't fire in reverse. If it wants to stimulate the neuron that stimulated it, it has to either route through a third neuron or grow an extra branch on the axon that leads back to the first neuron. So reversibility isn't just automatic. You often have to explicitly train at it.

So now. Imagine all the possible connections between the first group of neurons already exist. You know Spanish. (SH->SS), so that when I hear someone talking in Spanish, I can respond in Spanish. (SH->B), so that when someone says, "Please pass the salt" in Spanish, I can respond with my body and get the salt. (E->SS), so that when I detect something interesting in the environment (which includes my internal environment of things I feel a need for like food and salt), I can tell someone else about it. And of course, (E->B), seeing interesting things in my environment can also cause me to take action with my body; but this is not language, so we're just going to ignore it in this little exercise. Also, note that I can speak Spanish to myself (not necessarily out loud, but quietly in my thoughts) and act on what I hear myself saying, which can produce (SS->SH).

Now, the way most people are taught language in adulthood is by telling them that [Native word] = [Foreign word]. In other words, adults often learn (EH->SS) and (SH->ES). This creates all kinds of problems, because word order is usually different across languages and because words that "equal" each other are often used in different contexts across languages. They also tend to cluster with different words to form different idioms. Moreover, in our example, if I want to make the (EH->B) connection, I have to route through extra neurons (EH->SS->SH->B), which isn't very efficient. Same goes for (E->ES); I have to reroute through (E->SS->SH->ES). If I do it enough, maybe my brain will learn to shorten the circuit and get the two-neuron version. However, that's not likely. Why not?

Remember how I said that language use had to be practical? Well, if it isn't practical, your brain doesn't release the dopamine it needs to strengthen and shorten connections. So if you're fumbling along with a crummy word order, taking extra time to say things while you reroute through all those extra connections, you're going to look stupid to the person you're talking with--not practical. You're not going to get the result you want from the other person, and the connection won't be strengthened. Instead, you're very likely to fall back on the connections that are short and efficient--your native language--if there's somebody available who can understand it.

So to answer your question, it's very possible to understand but not speak. It's also possible (though not as likely) to speak but not understand. The reason why is because neurons are very selective about where they wire, and they don't necessarily wire in reverse, especially when it's not just easier to talk in your native language.

 

[Catherineanne]

Just thought I'd asked this here since there are multilingual people around.

I know this lady. She's about 70, intelligent, has lived in America for decades, and speaks nothing but Spanish. Never heard a word of English from her, not even a simple common word like "yes". She always says "si". Yet she understands me perfectly well when I speak English to her. I speak at normal conversational speed as I would with any English speaker, and it doesn't matter what the topic is, whether or not it's in the context of what we happen to be doing. I was puzzled by this initially so I flat out asked her "do you understand everything I say every time I'm talking"? She says "Oh, si, si!" "But you can't speak it?" "No."

So she fluently hears a language, but cannot speak it at all. I don't see how that's possible. It just seems like if you understand the words so well you would be able to speak them. Is this as strange as it seems to me, or is this common? Ever known anyone like this?

Babies can understand language pretty well from day one, but it takes years before they can speak.

Same with older people; I am learning a language with Duolingo. I can read and even write sentences, and understand a fair amount. I can't even begin to think about speaking it.

Try it for yourself.

 

[E.C.]

My stepmom's a Navy brat who was raised by a stepmother that spoke five languages. To this day my stepmom can understand Spanish, Portuguese and Arabic with a fair degree of comprehension; Spanish is the best. She just can't speak it very well.

A lot of older folks can understand new languages, but aren't always going to pick up speaking it. That's why immigrants to the USA aren't required to do interviews for visas in English if they are 55+

 

[dzheremi]

This absolutely happens. My great grandmother came to the USA from Mexico in the 1920s with my grandmother in toe. My grandmother learned English as any native-born American child would (she was very young when they came here), but her mother never learned it, despite living here for about 60 years before she passed on. I've also known people much younger than her who came here in the 1970s or even later who still have not learned English. I once asked the non-Anglophone mother of my then-girlfriend if she felt the desire to learn English and she said (to the best of my recollection) "Of course, I'd love to learn it, but how can I when I am working all day and come home tired and speak to my family who all know Spanish? If I tried to speak to my children in English, we would probably not understand each other." It made me sad, but it makes sense: working all day in jobs that don't actually require English, coming home to a family situation that does not actually require English, and hence never learning English and having some trepidation about trying to do so.

The situation is also not unknown among American expats. My uncle Ed has lived in Slovakia for over 20 years now and has never learned the language. I thought that was strange, but then he pointed out to me last time I corresponded with him that he is an English teacher there, so his students do not want to speak with him in Slovak, only English, and in order to get extra time to practice with a 'professional' like him, they gladly offer to take him grocery shopping and so forth. So here too his circumstances have never required him to learn the language.

 

[Chesterton]

This absolutely happens. My great grandmother came to the USA from Mexico in the 1920s with my grandmother in toe. My grandmother learned English as any native-born American child would (she was very young when they came here), but her mother never learned it, despite living here for about 60 years before she passed on. I've also known people much younger than her who came here in the 1970s or even later who still have not learned English. I once asked the non-Anglophone mother of my then-girlfriend if she felt the desire to learn English and she said (to the best of my recollection) "Of course, I'd love to learn it, but how can I when I am working all day and come home tired and speak to my family who all know Spanish? If I tried to speak to my children in English, we would probably not understand each other." It made me sad, but it makes sense: working all day in jobs that don't actually require English, coming home to a family situation that does not actually require English, and hence never learning English and having some trepidation about trying to do so.

The situation is also not unknown among American expats. My uncle Ed has lived in Slovakia for over 20 years now and has never learned the language. I thought that was strange, but then he pointed out to me last time I corresponded with him that he is an English teacher there, so his students do not want to speak with him in Slovak, only English, and in order to get extra time to practice with a 'professional' like him, they gladly offer to take him grocery shopping and so forth. So here too his circumstances have never required him to learn the language.

I've heard of this, but how can you teach others without knowing their language? If they're making a mistake you have to be able to explain the mistake in their language, don't you? I'd love to know how that works.

 

[rusmeister]

I draw stick figures on a board. I have become a master at producing cheap chalk sketches done in seconds and meant to last only fifteen minutes. I teach kids using only English. As of last year, translator programs got up to speed enough that they help maintain the illusion that I can't speak Russian, but for twenty years prior to that, it was just me and whatever I could physically demonstrate. Second-graders learn how to use a dictionary and from then on write translations down themselves. I don't reveal the awful secret of my language abilities until they are in the fourth grade, when they are trained, have the habit of answering me in English, and it is too late. (Plus, there are real problems of translation that arise at that point)

 

[~Anastasia~]

Just speaking for myself, I have been interested in languages since being a small child. I began self-teaching in early elementary school. I understand (can read better than hear) a fair amount of many languages.

But it's like pulling teeth to get me to SPEAK to a native speaker. I can, and sometimes do. But it's honestly a matter of pride. I don't like to mispronounce so I will do almost anything to avoid it, given a choice.

I'm trying to get over that, just to put down my pride. Most of the people at my Church speak Greek to one another. And while my real interest at present is Biblical Greek, I'm also working on conversational, and talk to them a little.

But for many years I avoided speaking in any language to anyone (unless a fellow student practicing with me) even though I could understand what they said to me, and could have framed a reply in that language.

 

[~Anastasia~]

My sister-in-law's mother came from Cuba in her 20s, and my husband's mother came from Vietnam in her 30s. They have lived in the US for decades. Both understand English perfectly well, but never speak a word in response in English, as you say, even yes/no. I never asked them the details of why not, but the pattern in the same.

 

[Dewi Sant]

It sounds like an issue of confidence and fearing incorrect pronunciation.

I used to understand quite a lot of Greek but when I tried to speak it I would always be corrected on pronunciation. It wears a guy down.
True, I can now pronounce Greek near perfect but I have very little incentive to use it in conversation.

And then there's the issue I get when traveling to Germany.
I speak to them in German and they (upon hearing my English accent) speak back in English.
Okay, a different problem, but an amusing though frustrating one!