OSASers must believe that God created human robots!

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"He is the One who saves, for sure. But He doesn't choose who will believe, or we're just puppets on a string."

Now THAT conclusion, although common among people who don't really know what Predestination means, is ridiculous.

Please explain your claim. So, if He does choose who will believe, it should be quite easy to quote a verse that teaches that He does.

There is no reason to say that if we are predestined, it makes us "just puppets on a string."

I never said that. Of course WE are predestined. But predestined to WHAT: that is the question. And it ain't to believe. No verse says that.

So, what are WE (believers) predestined for? Scripture says "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren" Rom 8:29. To be "conformed to the image of His Son" is not a way to describe getting saved, so this verse does NOT teach that God chooses who will believe, or that anyone is predestined to believe.

Not only do those who teach and believe in Election NOT believe such a thing, but it has nothing to do with Predestination anyway.

Ah, election. Do you know the purpose of election? And how many categories of election the Bible mentions?

Predestination refers to our being saved or not being saved; it does not refer to which college we decide to attend or whom we marry or whether we become lawyers or plumbers. None of that. Look at the word.

If that's what paredestination means, please quote a verse that says that. I just quoted a verse that tells us what we are predestined FOR, and it wasn't salvation. So where's the verse about being predestined for salvation.

PRE DESTINED. Destination...that means heaven or hell, not what's our preference in vacation spots!

I suggest looking at what the Bible SAYS about predestination.

What you're doing there is confusing Predestination with Fatalism.

OK now?

I don't think your view is.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Predestination has to do with destiny, or fate (both mean the same thing). God decides man's destiny, or fate before man even exists. So yes, the reference to puppets is very reasonable.
Can a puppet do otherwise than what was decided for him?
Can man do otherwise than what was predestined for Him?

Hey, great! That means we ain't accountable for anything we do, if all this is true. Hot dog!!

Nonsense.

 

[Albion]

Please explain your claim. So, if He does choose who will believe, it should be quite easy to quote a verse that teaches that He does.

As you know, we've done that very thing several times for you already, and done so on this very thread. Read it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

How is free will established when all things are determined beforehand?

No problem at all. If by 'determined' one means that God in His perfect omniscience has always known what will occur, then His knowledge of it doesn't mean that He caused it. To watch a car rolling down a hill directly towards another car easily means that those watching the scenario have determined that the rolling car will hit the other car. But the knowledge of that doesn't mean that the observers caused anything to occur.

Can man do otherwise than what was predestined? If he can't, then his fate is decided for him. Can a reprobate do otherwise than what was appointed for him?

Where does the Bible say that reprobates have been appointed?

God's knowledge of all events does not equal God causing any of them. It is a fallacy to suggest that one does equal the other.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Please explain your claim. So, if He does choose who will believe, it should be quite easy to quote a verse that teaches that He does."

We've done that very thing several times for you already, as you know

I've seen several verses yes. But none of them says what is being claimed. In fact, if God is the One who chooses who will believe, then neither believers nor unbelievers (those passed over) are accountable for what is believed or rejected. Only God is accountable. How does that make sense?

Let's do this: quote any verse that you believe teaches that God chooses who will believe, and then exegete it for me. Then I will respond.

 

[^j^RaspberryAngel]

We've done that very thing several times for you already, as you know--and on this very thread. Read it.

They know. It's a test to see how many times we'll repeat ourselves hoping to get a different response from those who like that we repeat ourselves.

 

[FreeGrace2]

They know. It's a test to see how many times we'll repeat ourselves hoping to get a different response from those who like that we repeat ourselves.

This is nonsense. There are no verses that plainly teach that God chooses who will believe. It's just a fantasy view.

Here's the truth: God DOES choose who He will save. And we know who that is: believers. 1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

If my statement is false, please provide an explanation of why it is and some verses to back up your explanation. Thanks.

 

[Albion]

I've seen several verses yes. But none of them says what is being claimed.

Well, then you may be misunderstanding them or have a predisposition to doubt them. You remember that I was asked for an explanation of two of them and gave a specific and careful explanation of how they can only be understood as referring to Election.

In fact, if God is the One who chooses who will believe, then neither believers nor unbelievers (those passed over) are accountable for what is believed or rejected.

Not so. We are all responsible for our sins and we all have them. If we are among the Elect, we are forgiven them through Christ, through Faith; but if not, then we are left to be judged on our own merits which would not be pretty.

 

[Albion]

They know. It's a test to see how many times we'll repeat ourselves hoping to get a different response from those who like that we repeat ourselves.

And it may be that by insisting upon the word "believe" he can structure his question to his advantage. We often get people saying, "The Bible nowhere says X" and the speaker is insisting that there be just the exact wording that he's chosen or else, presumably, he is free to say "it's not in the Bible." No, that exact wording may not be, but when "justified" is the word used, or "APPOINTED TO ETERNAL LIFE," or something else like that, the meaning is really not in doubt.

 

[corinth77777]

[QUOTESw, post: 68483728, member: 351959"]Just showing up to say hello and leave the words of life from Jesus.

Matthew 19
16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

The net is always large enough for those who hear, understand, and keep the words of life.[/QUOTE]
Lol I dont think..one should be called a osaser.....question ..is Jesus still alive? IF SO wouldn't the old covenant still be inforced?.....and under the old covenant was there anyone who kept his commands?...if they did then wouldnt they not need Jesus to die?.....doesn't scripture say all have sinned? And isn't sin transgessing the law? So then under the old covenant...no one entered in by works

 

[Job8]

This is nonsense. There are no verses that plainly teach that God chooses who will believe. It's just a fantasy view.

That's right. God want ALL to believe. If He were "choosing" all would be chosen. Then why are only a few chosen? Because not all will believe. Not all will obey the Gospel (Rom 10:16): But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

If God were doing the choosing, then all Israel would have been saved. Instead this is what we read (Rom 10:21): But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

So how can anyone say that those who are eternally saved are robots? People would be robotic if God compelled all to believe. But He does not do that. Proof? Israel in Rom 10:21.

 

[EmSw]

[QUOTESw, post: 68483728, member: 351959"]Just showing up to say hello and leave the words of life from Jesus.

Matthew 19
16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

The net is always large enough for those who hear, understand, and keep the words of life.
Lol I dont think..one should be called a osaser.....question ..is Jesus still alive? IF SO wouldn't the old covenant still be inforced?.....and under the old covenant was there anyone who kept his commands?...if they did then wouldnt they not need Jesus to die?.....doesn't scripture say all have sinned? And isn't sin transgessing the law? So then under the old covenant...no one entered in by works

One can believe the words of life from the Savior Himself, or, question the very truth He gave us.

Under your scenario, no one from the OT was saved. But anyway, I'll give this -

Luke 1
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

 

[corinth77777]

"Now the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and a harmful spirit from the Lord tormented him." [1 Samuel 16:14]

• We clearly see that it was God's decision to harden Saul's heart rather than Saul's decision to abandon God.

"Then Saul said to his armor-bearer, “Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it, lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and mistreat me.” But his armor-bearer would not, for he feared greatly. Therefore Saul took his own sword and fell upon it." [1 Samuel 31:4]

• What does this have to do with losing salvation? Saul's committing suicide, nothing less, nothing more.

"But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die." [Ezekiel 18:24]

• Speaking of works, not salvation. "Righteous person" does not equate to "saved person."

These are only your first three examples, and none of them refers to what you claim they do. Need I continue?

"Now the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and a harmful spirit from the Lord tormented him." [1 Samuel 16:14]

• We clearly see that it was God's decision to harden Saul's heart rather than Saul's decision to abandon God.

"Then Saul said to his armor-bearer, “Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it, lest these uncircumcised come and thrust me through, and mistreat me.” But his armor-bearer would not, for he feared greatly. Therefore Saul took his own sword and fell upon it." [1 Samuel 31:4]

• What does this have to do with losing salvation? Saul's committing suicide, nothing less, nothing more.

"But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die." [Ezekiel 18:24]

• Speaking of works, not salvation. "Righteous person" does not equate to "saved person."

These are only your first three examples, and none of them refers to what you claim they do. Need I continue?

[QUOTESw, post: 68483728, member: 351959"]Just showing up to say hello and leave the words of life from Jesus.

Matthew 19
16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

The net is always large enough for those who hear, understand, and keep the words of life.

Lol I dont think..one should be called a osaser.....question ..is Jesus still alive? IF SO wouldn't the old covenant still be inforced?.....and under the old covenant was there anyone who kept his commands?...if they did then wouldnt they not need Jesus to die?.....doesn't scripture say all have sinned? And isn't sin transgessing the law? So then under the old covenant...no one entered in by works[/QUOTE]
If Ezekial is telling the future....then it seems like he is counting all under sin...I can't say it's not speaking of losing salvation...because it seemed they did...yet could the purpose be that they needed a new heart and right spirit?....which would predict Christ who cleanes the conscience. .....so under the old they could lose their salvation...and the wages for sin us death.......I didnt read all of Ezekial so if I need to corrected..correct me

 

[SinnerInTheHands]

question ..is Jesus still alive?

Yes, but He did die.

 

[corinth77777]

One can believe the words of life from the Savior Himself, or, question the very truth He gave us.

Under your scenario, no one from the OT was saved. But anyway, I'll give this -

Luke 1
5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Just reading the scriptue I was highlighting facts...and according to the same scripture should answer your question...because one can walk and be righteous yet do unrighteous and then be called unrighteous. ..read it for yourself..and then tell me if thats exactly what it says...old covenant

 

[corinth77777]

Yes, but He did die.

Point was if he was alive..while being asked that question the old covenant was still in effect..

 

[EmSw]

Just reading the scriptue I was highlighting facts...and according to the same scripture should answer your question...because one can walk and be righteous yet do unrighteous and then be called unrighteous. ..read it for yourself..and then tell me if thats exactly what it says...old covenant

I believe what the Bible says. It says they were righteous.

 

[corinth77777]

Yes...what ever post I responded to.....Ezekial....it never says the person is unrighteous...but when he turns to do unrighteous he dies........and if the payment for sin is death....one must ask what death is spoken of in Ezekial?.........if Ezekial is referring to the old Covenant...then death still reigned until Christ....???

 

[^j^RaspberryAngel]

And it may be that by insisting upon the word "believe" he can structure his question to his advantage. We often get people saying, "The Bible nowhere says X" and the speaker is insisting that there be just the exact wording that he's chosen or else, presumably, he is free to say "it's not in the Bible." No, that exact wording may not be, but when "justified" is the word used, or "APPOINTED TO ETERNAL LIFE," or something else like that, the meaning is really not in doubt.

I think you've got it. That may be the very method being employed by the skeptics here.

It's not stating that exactly therefore it can be refuted because it isn't exactly said.
But it is said. Just not in those words the skeptics refute.

Which leads to the question, why is the point in using word tactics to refute the actual meaning, the underlying meaning, the words that are there and of God?

I think the only people that do that and work to get that done are those for whom the word of God means nothing.
Who condemns God's meaning using verbiage as a slithery inroad to avoid the message itself?
Oh, it didn't say exactly this in common English terms so it isn't there! Nah nah!

There's a tactic that I heard about long ago that this all reminds me of. It was employed by people who wanted to invalidate information so as to make it non-credible and easily dismissed by others. I'll recall the term if I think on it enough.

But really, what's the point of arguing from the point of reason with those committed to being unreasonable? They're not here to respect or appreciate the scriptures. They're here to mock them, frustrate Christians who think they can cure the presumed ignorance put forth by such mockers, and in truth its the skeptics, the unbelievers, having a go. Their sole purpose is to work the board and watch Christians jump through the hoops they set up for them as they then enjoy watching us defend the God they don't believe exists in the first place. So who are we trying to convince when we press forward to explain the truth of scripture? That which is delivered to humanity by a spirit those committed to that word game actually do not believe exists at all.
It's a handful you notice? Not even that really. And they all, and this is key, sound the same in the rhetoric they deliver that is always contrary to what is scripture. Or is argued from that perspective.

What's the Bible tell us about what those type are expecting us to do when those type set out their hoops for us to jump through in the name of the God that isn't there?

And what is it with the name, OSAS'ers? As if that's some kind of affliction? Instead of scripture. As if its a delusion, a club, a group, on the fringe. That's the first clue as to the motive behind what follows as mockery of eternal life, salvation, redemption and the entire gospel message.

 

[Albion]

So how can anyone say that those who are eternally saved are robots? People would be robotic if God compelled all to believe. But He does not do that. Proof? Israel in Rom 10:21.

Fortunately, no one is saying that God does compel all to believe. That isn't even an issue. But as to those who DO believe and are saved by Faith, it's only through Grace that they receive saving Faith. So how do you suppose they get that Faith, when there is nothing about Man that would cause him to understand the Incarnation, let alone the workings of our God?

It's all so easy for a person to say 'Just choose Christ; it's your choice, one way or the other,' but no one can do that on his own. And if not on his own, it's God doing the connecting. In the case of those who are saved, we call that "Election."

And if God does this, do you really think he will be faithless to those who have committed themselves to Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior--the same Jesus who taught his disciples not to worry but to trust in him?