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OSAS vs NOSAS

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aiki

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There is an irreconcilable dilemma at the heart of this belief. If you say believing in Jesus at one point in time saves you, then you can become an apostate and reject the existence of God and still be saved. The Bible clearly states that people like this won't be saved so to uphold this belief you are forced to say that these people were never saved in the first place. These people could have held the exact same beliefs as you, but they fell away from the faith afterwards. If you cannot tell whether you are saved or not based solely on your beliefs, then you would have no idea what category you were in. You may belong to the people who were never saved in the first place.

You are failing to make the distinction in kind of belief that the Bible does. The apostle James goes into this in significant detail. And so does Christ. Both of them say that the truth of your talk is in your walk. If you really, truly believe a thing, it will inevitably shape your behaviour. Sure, many people claim to be Christian, but the fruit of their life does not bear out their claim. "By their fruit you shall know them," Jesus said. "Faith without works is dead," James proclaimed. The difference between a Christian poseur and a true believer is observed in the character of their living. It is a belief of the heart and not just the head, a belief that shapes conduct, not just speech, that is the belief that saves. What you believe is very important but how you believe is even more important.

1 John 2:3-5
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.


Selah.
 
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JustHisKid

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You are failing to make the distinction in kind of belief that the Bible does. The apostle James goes into this in significant detail. And so does Christ. Both of them say that the truth of your talk is in your walk. If you really, truly believe a thing, it will inevitably shape your behaviour. Sure, many people claim to be Christian, but the fruit of their life does not bear out their claim. "By their fruit you shall know them," Jesus said. "Faith without works is dead," James proclaimed. The difference between a Christian poseur and a true believer is observed in the character of their living. It is a belief of the heart and not just the head, a belief that shapes conduct, not just speech, that is the belief that saves. What you believe is very important but how you believe is even more important.

1 John 2:3-5
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.


Selah.

I agree. The conduct is a result of what someone truly believes. It's not the works that save but a true faith that results in works.
 
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football5680

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You are failing to make the distinction in kind of belief that the Bible does. The apostle James goes into this in significant detail. And so does Christ. Both of them say that the truth of your talk is in your walk. If you really, truly believe a thing, it will inevitably shape your behaviour. Sure, many people claim to be Christian, but the fruit of their life does not bear out their claim. "By their fruit you shall know them," Jesus said. "Faith without works is dead," James proclaimed. The difference between a Christian poseur and a true believer is observed in the character of their living. It is a belief of the heart and not just the head, a belief that shapes conduct, not just speech, that is the belief that saves. What you believe is very important but how you believe is even more important.

1 John 2:3-5
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.


Selah.
I completely agree, but this just further proves my point.

This belief is either false, or so meaningless that it would be better to hold the opposing view to avoid developing a false sense of security that will unknowingly lead you to hell. What you have described is what my definition of true faith is. Somebody who has true faith will continue on this path until their death, but others may initially start on the path but fall away later. At this point to uphold the doctrine you would have to say they were never actually on the path to begin with. If they were never really on the path when they were actually obeying the commandments of God then the path is unclear and we would have no idea if we were on it.
 
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aiki

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This belief is either false, or so meaningless that it would be better to hold the opposing view to avoid developing a false sense of security that will unknowingly lead you to hell. What you have described is what my definition of true faith is. Somebody who has true faith will continue on this path until their death, but others may initially start on the path but fall away later. At this point to uphold the doctrine you would have to say they were never actually on the path to begin with. If they were never really on the path when they were actually obeying the commandments of God then the path is unclear and we would have no idea if we were on it.

Well, see, while the Bible schools us on the difference between genuine heart-belief and a mere acknowledgement of the truth of the Gospel, never does it make perseverance the only way to know if you're saved. That singular sort of standard makes salvation an uncertain future outcome and uses the fear of not being saved in the end as a provocation to live in a Christian manner. But Scripture says very plainly that we can know we are saved right now (1Jn. 5:13) and that it is upon this knowledge that our identity in Christ is predicated (Eph. 2:1-11; Ro. 6; 8:1-18). God's Word also tells us that fear (of the sort hell inspires) has no place in the believer's fellowship with God. (1 Jn. 4:13-19)

Selah.
 
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football5680

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Well, see, while the Bible schools us on the difference between genuine heart-belief and a mere acknowledgement of the truth of the Gospel, never does it make perseverance the only way to know if you're saved. That singular sort of standard makes salvation an uncertain future outcome and uses the fear of not being saved in the end as a provocation to live in a Christian manner. But Scripture says very plainly that we can know we are saved right now (1Jn. 5:13) and that it is upon this knowledge that our identity in Christ is predicated (Eph. 2:1-11; Ro. 6; 8:1-18). God's Word also tells us that fear (of the sort hell inspires) has no place in the believer's fellowship with God. (1 Jn. 4:13-19)

Selah.
If you look at the Greek of 1 John 5:13, it uses the word "pisteuousin" which means believing in the present tense. If somebody is living like you described in your last post then they can be assured based on what God has said. The fact that a present tense verb was used makes it conditional, with the condition being you remain in this state.

Here's a link to the Greek text.
http://biblehub.com/text/1_john/5-13.htm

Whenever we make a choice it will be based on fear or desire and they are interconnected. If I fear hell then obviously this means I desire heaven and if I desire heaven then obviously I fear hell. A believer should focus on what God has promised to us instead of what is in store for the unbelievers.
 
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Winken

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I think this makes it clear:

1 John 5:18 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

We know that everyone who has God as his Father does not go on sinning; on the contrary, the Son born of God protects him, and the Evil One does not touch him.

Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
Copyright © 1998 by David H. Stern. All rights reserved.
 
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oi_antz

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That verse has stimulated me to write more thoughts about the gospel of salvation from death and redemption from sin, as is revealed in Jesus Christ:

Everlasting life is given to those who can handle having knowledge of good and evil, yet live in accordance with God's will (Matthew 25:34, John 10:27).

In a sinful world, where people have freedom to do sin and where sin is sometimes trendy and encouraged, many people take a road which is broad and easy. They take that road because it is the way they want to go. The majority of people prefer to live life and have whatever their sinful desires are, gratified.

Yet we know the law of God as it defines sin, and we know in our hearts what our sins are since our conscience bears witness against us whenever it comes to mind.

Yet, everlasting life is offered to those who will take Jesus for their master (the sinless, perfect human servant of God), and who will lay down their own life (eg, their sinful desires to live as they want to live), in order to do His will.

The gospel of Jesus Christ is therefore: leave your life of sin, and come, follow me (John 8:11-12).

We know that we have sinful desires, that originate from the body's desire for pleasure and comfort, yet those desires sometimes conflict with God's will. In that case, our desires are sinful and we will know that our desires conflict with God's law.

Thus, salvation is given to those who satisfy His requirements for everlasting life: that is, to love God with all your might, and to love your neighbour as yourself. Yet the diverse range of sinful desires are not explicitly stated in two laws, though when observing the truth, we can all acknowledge a consistent ruling on right and wrong - if we are impartial to our own sinful desires.

Therefore, as Christians who write in the bible proclaim:

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgement. (Hebrews 10:26).

Yet, even in times past, His faithful servants have been granted forgiveness for sin:

he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities. For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his love for those who fear him; as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us. (Psalms 103:10-12).

A person who is living a repentant life, acknowledging their sin and turning from it, is given the right to fellowship with Him (Ephesians 3:12), and they have the peace of knowing that they are living a life that pleases Him (Ephesians 5:2). This peace is given by The Holy Spirit, who teaches us all things, reminding us what Jesus has said (John 14:26), so that if ever He requires us to repent, we will know it (Proverbs 3:11-12).

Although, His people are living in a world that is under the power of the evil one (1 John 5:19), which condones sin and condescends God's law (1 Peter 4:3), and the temptations are ever present. It is common for His people to give in to temptation and to walk in the darkness of sin. It has been said that if we claim to have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we are deceiving ourselves (1 John 1:6). It is for this reason, if any person is living a non-repentant life, that is, they are living in sin, they cannot truthfully claim to have fellowship with Him. Then how can such a person confess with their mouth that Jesus is their lord? Jesus even said of people who live that way "they will say to me 'didn't I do wonderful things in your name?' and I will say to them 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who practise lawless things'".

It is for this reason that Jesus claimed His father Jehovah is the vine dresser. He said "anyone who produces fruit is pruned to produce more, but those who do not produce fruit are cut off. Therefore, remain in me.".

Jesus told His disciples to work hard to enter by the narrow door, because many will try to enter but they will not be able to. What does this mean then? That many who try to enter the narrow door are not able? Is our best effort of repentance not enough? I posit instead, that repentance is too hard for some people. Indeed the path that leads to life is narrow and difficult. A rich man stands no chance, because it is even easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. What then, if a person is not rich, is it easier for them to enter heaven? What is the condition of being rich that makes a person unable to enter heaven? It is the attachment to material things, that natural desire of the flesh to have things that please it. A man cannot serve two masters, because he will love one and despise the other. Rich people love their money because it is the means by which they can ensure the comfort and pleasure of the life they desire. What then, if a person is not rich, they do not have the same attachment to fleshly desires? Contrary, indeed, even if one covets his neighbour's car, he gives rise to jealousy, desires of theft, which leads to hate. If one loves fornication yet The Lord disproves, he must choose which master to serve.

Therefore, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ, that is, those who walk according to His law, as their conscience testifies.

The psalmist writes: I will surely do what I have promised, Lord, and thank you for your help. For you have saved me from death and my feet from slipping, so that I can walk before the Lord in the land of the living.

Although sin crouches at our door, wanting to have us, we are encouraged and empowered by God to reign over it (Genesis 4:7), and He has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power (2 Timothy 1:7), because we do not live in the flesh but rather the spirit of God. Since Christ is in us, we put to death the desires of the body to have comforts that grieve The Spirit of God. When The Lord corrects us, we should rejoice and praise Him, because He corrects those whom He loves (Proverbs 3:11-12), (Hebrews 12:11).

Therefore, the gospel of Jesus Christ is: We will not die, but we will be transformed to have heavenly bodies (1 Corinthians 15:51). When He comes, we will see Him fully and we will be like Him (1 John 3:2). Because we have the certainty of this that we hope for, which is faith, based on living according to God's will with a clear conscience we say: oh death, where is your sting?

Jesus says: “Let this message sink into the ears of anyone who listens to what the Spirit is saying to the churches: To everyone who is victorious, I will give fruit from the Tree of Life in the Paradise of God.

Therefore, I say no to OSAS, because our salvation is not complete until it is revealed that our name is indeed written in the book of life and the former things have passed away. Many are called, but few will be chosen. Those who belong to Him can never be snatched from His hand, they do not practise sin, because the one that is in them is greater than the one that is in the world.
 
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oi_antz

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I think this makes it clear:

1 John 5:18 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

We know that everyone who has God as his Father does not go on sinning; on the contrary, the Son born of God protects him, and the Evil One does not touch him.

Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
Copyright © 1998 by David H. Stern. All rights reserved.
It is interesting you have implied it was not clear in the NWT. Can you please explain why? Thank you :) I do like CJB too!
 
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Winken

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Thus, salvation is given to those who satisfy His requirements for everlasting life:

And what are His "requirements?" See Romans 10:8-13. At some point the Holy Spirit prompts the person to make that confession of Faith. By receiving God's gift of salvation by Grace through Faith, one has met His "requirements." One enters into eternal security, from which one can never depart, nor will the gift ever be withdrawn.

Therefore, as Christians who write in the bible proclaim:

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgement. (Hebrews 10:26).

The writer of Hebrews, whom I trust was the Apostle Paul, was, indeed, a Christian. His message in Hebrews was specifically directed to those Hebrew folk who had come very close to accepting Jesus as Savior, then backed away. They were "not yet" Christians.

he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities. For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his love for those who fear him; as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us. (Psalms 103:10-12).

Yes. Jesus did that at the Cross.

Then how can such a person confess with their mouth that Jesus is their lord? Jesus even said of people who live that way "they will say to me 'didn't I do wonderful things in your name?' and I will say to them 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who practise lawless things'".

Confession comes first. Those who are thusly saved do drift into sin. The prescription for that is found in 1 John 1:9, which is not about the saved returning to salvation, but about those who stray being welcomed back into fellowship. The passage "I never knew you" will be found at the Great White Throne Judgment for those who failed to confess Jesus as Savior.

It is for this reason that Jesus claimed His father Jehovah is the vine dresser. He said "anyone who produces fruit is pruned to produce more, but those who do not produce fruit are cut off. Therefore, remain in me."

Jesus was addressing the Hebrew folk as their Promised Messiah. Those who rejected Him were indeed, cut off. The "rich man" parable was directed specifically to them.

Therefore, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ, that is, those who walk according to His law, as their conscience testifies. The psalmist writes: I will surely do what I have promised, Lord, and thank you for your help. For you have saved me from death and my feet from slipping, so that I can walk before the Lord in the land of the living.

Salvation is by Grace through Faith and, Praise God, there is no condemnation for those who confess Him as Savior, for those who are in Christ Jesus. NO condemnation from that point forward. Eternally secure, not because I have promised, but because HE has promised.

You write well .... carefully, knowing scripture. However, one cannot move the Christian Covenant as revealed by the Apostle Paul back into the Hebrew Bible. Obviously, not every word in the Hebrew Bible can revise the Christian Covenant, as presented by Paul. Every word in the Bible is true, factual, awesome, wonderful, Spiritually blessing, but cannot be added to or taken away from Grace through Faith.
 
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Winken

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It is interesting you have implied it was not clear in the NWT. Can you please explain why? Thank you :) I do like CJB too!

Context. There are no contradictions in His Word. The context, scriptural, Spiritual authority, is well-presented in the CJB.
 
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oi_antz

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And what are His "requirements?"
Ask Him. It is not me that you need to satisfy. I am not the one who can give fruit to you from the tree of life.
See Romans 10:8-13. At some point the Holy Spirit prompts the person to make that confession of Faith. By receiving God's gift of salvation by Grace through Faith, one has met His "requirements." One enters into eternal security, from which one can never depart, nor will the gift ever be withdrawn.

The writer of Hebrews, whom I trust was the Apostle Paul, was, indeed, a Christian. His message in Hebrews was specifically directed to those Hebrew folk who had come very close to accepting Jesus as Savior, then backed away. They were "not yet" Christians.

Yes. Jesus did that at the Cross.

Confession comes first. Those who are thusly saved do drift into sin. The prescription for that is found in 1 John 1:9, which is not about the saved returning to salvation, but about those who stray being welcomed back into fellowship. The passage "I never knew you" will be found at the Great White Throne Judgment for those who failed to confess Jesus as Savior.

Jesus was addressing the Hebrew folk as their Promised Messiah. Those who rejected Him were indeed, cut off. The "rich man" parable was directed specifically to them.

Salvation is by Grace through Faith and, Praise God, there is no condemnation for those who confess Him as Savior, for those who are in Christ Jesus. NO condemnation from that point forward. Eternally secure, not because I have promised, but because HE has promised.

You write well .... carefully, knowing scripture. However, one cannot move the Christian Covenant as revealed by the Apostle Paul back into the Hebrew Bible. Obviously, not every word in the Hebrew Bible can revise the Christian Covenant, as presented by Paul. Every word in the Bible is true, factual, awesome, wonderful, Spiritually blessing, but cannot be added to or taken away from Grace through Faith.
Why did you write all of this? Do you think I am wrong about something? If so, please explain why.

Edit: I think you are wrong to have said this:

"Those who are thusly saved do drift into sin"

.. can you please verify that you believe people who are saved normally "drift into sin"? That contradicts basic Christian teachings, namely Jesus: "to enter heaven, you will need to be more holy than the Pharisees" and St Paul: "by one sacrifice he forever made perfect those who are being made holy".

Context. There are no contradictions in His Word. The context, scriptural, Spiritual authority, is well-presented in the CJB.
Can you please explain why you think the context was not clear in the NWT but it was clear in the OJB? I see them both clear enough in the context as it relates to this thread. Thank you.
 
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TheyCallMeDave

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What is your position?

Because Christs atoning sacrifice is enough to save you then it is enough to keep you saved ; however, becoming saved isn't just a mental assent but rather it requires a true Born Again nature whereby Ones life is hence lived inline with Gods expectations . People who think they can be saved yet live as a person of the World does , never got Born Again . And Jesus said 'You MUST be Born Again' . How we know if we are truly saved is by the subsequent evidence of a changed life and lifestyle choices after receiving Jesus. If there is time left after receiving Jesus, then it should be a life that reflects Christlikeness and departing from the World and its philosophies for living ; one cannot love the World and God at the same time . God cannot be fooled or mocked.....he knows our heart and how we live ; he knows if we were sincere about his plan of salvation for us .
 
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aiki

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It is very sad how many believers are going around thinking that they can somehow save themselves. This is essentially what one must believe if one thinks that salvation can be lost. But Scripture is absolutely clear on this point: No one can even begin to desire to be saved if God has not imparted that desire to them. Every child of God was once "dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph. 2:1), alienated from God and enemies in their minds toward Him by wicked works (Col. 1:21), and of a fleshly, carnal mind that did not possess the capacity to obey God (Ro. 8:7). In such a condition, there is no way anybody could ever save themselves or even seriously consider doing so of their own accord. This is why Jesus said,

John 6:44-45
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.


Our utter inability to be who God commands us to be in and of ourselves is only part of the issue, however. God has so ordained things such that He will give us not the slightest reason to boast in the matter of our salvation. The salvation of God is a monergistic work of God in us; He does it all.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.


Titus 3:4-7
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


Clearly, then, salvation cannot in any way be of us. Our role in our salvation is simply to receive it by faith. But if our salvation is not our doing, how can it be our responsibility to retain it? If we are so incapable of saving ourselves, how can we possibly be expected to keep ourselves saved? Such an expectation is akin to saving a drowning quadraplegic by putting a lifejacket on him and then demanding that he swim himself to shore!

Thankfully, this is not what Scripture teaches concerning the maintenance of our salvation. God is very plain in His Word that He has assumed the responsibility for preserving our adoption into His family.

Philippians 1:6
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

Philippians 2:13
13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Hebrews 12:2
2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith...

Jude 1:24
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,

And so on.

What, then, of those infamous verses which seem to indicate that one can lose one's salvation? Well, they are not meant to be read in isolation, but in their immediate context and in the larger context of all of Scripture. And when this is how they are read, it is not so clear that they are teaching a saved-and-lost doctrine.

John 15:2
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.


No mention of hell here. The threat of Hell must be read into what Jesus says in this verse. At most, "takes away" could be understood to mean that God ends a believer's life when it is clear they are not going to bear spiritual fruit.

John 15:6
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.


This seems like a much more explicit declaration of a saved-and-lost doctrine but if we let Scripture explain itself, it becomes quickly apparent that loss of salvation and hell are not in view in Jesus' comments:

Ezekiel 15:1-5
1 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying:
2 "Son of man, how is the wood of the vine better than any other wood, the vine branch which is among the trees of the forest?
3 Is wood taken from it to make any object? Or can men make a peg from it to hang any vessel on?
4 Instead, it is thrown into the fire for fuel; the fire devours both ends of it, and its middle is burned. Is it useful for any work?
5 Indeed, when it was whole, no object could be made from it. How much less will it be useful for any work when the fire has devoured it, and it is burned?


The prophet Ezekiel explains here that the wood of the vine is not particularly good for fashioning into useful items. A vine is chiefly valued for the fruit it produces. If, then, a vine does not bear fruit, it has little other use and is therefore typically used for firewood. Ezekiel's emphasis here is on the vine's usefulness, which is also the emphasis in Jesus' words in John 15. In fact, it seems very likely that Jesus' comments were a reference to Ezekiel's. But Ezekiel was in no way espousing or promoting a saved-and-lost doctrine - and neither is Jesus. What Jesus is commenting on in John 15:6 is the utter uselessness of a believer who does not bear spiritual fruit, not a saved-and-lost doctrine. The branches being "cast into the fire" is a picture of how totally useless fruitless branches are, not of losing one's salvation.

So, what about Hebrews 10:26 and 27?

Hebrews 10:26-27
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.


The reality is that every believer at one time or another - and often repeatedly - sins willfully. Paul the apostle explains why:

Galatians 5:17
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.


So it is that the apostle John writes,

1 John 1:8
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.


In light of these verses, how are we to understand Hebrews 10:26, 27? Clearly, the writer of Hebrews cannot be telling us that every time we sin we lose our salvation! If that were so, all of what Paul writes to us of justification by faith is meaningless! Obviously, this is not an option. So, how, then, to understand Hebrews 10:26, 27? It seems to me that the phrase "receiving a knowledge of the truth" cannot refer to salvation. Many people "receive a knowledge of the truth" when they hear the Gospel, but they turn from its precious truths - and from the sole means of reconciliation with God they hold out - and, as the writer of Hebrews explains, in so doing place themselves under God's wrath. This interpretation accords easily and well with the immediate context, the rest of Scripture, and avoids any eisegesis.

Finally, what about this passage?:

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.


Again, this looks like a clear saved-and-lost passage. I would contend, however, that this is so only if such a reading is imported into the passage. Of itself, the passage does not teach one can be saved and lost. At most, it explains that there is only one way by which we can be reconciled to God: through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. If a believer - for that is clearly who the passage is describing - willfully falls away from walking with God, rejecting the only means by which they can be restored to fellowship with God, they confirm themselves in a permanently prodigal condition. But just as the Prodigal Son never ceased to be his father's son no matter how far he strayed, no born-again believer ceases to be the adopted child of their Heavenly Father no matter how far they may stray from Him. A potent example of this is presented to us in 1Corinthians 5:

1 Corinthians 5:1-5
1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles--that a man has his father's wife!
2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed.
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


Paul does not declare the sinning brother anathema. He does not call him an unbeliever. No, Paul commanded the Corinthian believers to give up their incestuous Christian brother to Satan for "the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved." Paul enacts a corrective course with this sinning believer, not a disowning one. And, indeed, in Paul's second letter to the Corinthians he urges them to take once again into their fellowship the now sorrowful and repentant (but never unsaved) brother. (2Cor. 2:7)

For these and many other reasons I have not broached here, I cannot accept a saved-and-lost doctrine as biblical.

Selah.
 
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oi_antz

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It is very sad how many believers are going around thinking that they can somehow save themselves. This is essentially what one must believe if one thinks that salvation can be lost.

Selah.
I sense you might have thought this is the view I take, so I want to offer clarification. I consider instead that salvation can only be lost, by proving unfit for The Kingdom. I believe this because it is the core of the gospel: The wages of sin is death, and this is why Jesus' death was unjust and the most grievous sin. Therefore, as in Genesis 4:7, by proving the master of sin, one will be accepted. Mastering sin has nothing to do with confessing one's belief that Jesus has forgiven their sin, because someone could be lying about their repentance (knowing they have not confessed and repented, and that because they prefer to sin, they do not have fellowship with Him). Those people do not listen to His voice and follow Him. They are not His sheep, because they follow another master.
 
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Winken

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Ask Him. It is not me that you need to satisfy. I am not the one who can give fruit to you from the tree of life.

Why did you write all of this? Do you think I am wrong about something? If so, please explain why.

Edit: I think you are wrong to have said this:

"Those who are thusly saved do drift into sin"

.. can you please verify that you believe people who are saved normally "drift into sin"? That contradicts basic Christian teachings, namely Jesus: "to enter heaven, you will need to be more holy than the Pharisees" and St Paul: "by one sacrifice he forever made perfect those who are being made holy".


Can you please explain why you think the context was not clear in the NWT but it was clear in the OJB? I see them both clear enough in the context as it relates to this thread. Thank you.

Please see Post #75 by aiki
 
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Tellastory

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What is your position?

OSAS because then I can go around telling the Good News by bearing a true witness that Jesus Christ is my Saviour in that He has saved me.

Otherwise, my testimony would be... "Jesus might be my Saviour. I do not know if this is the Good News or not, since I can lose my salvation." Then christianity would be pretty much like every other religion; looking to yourself in obtaining salvation or keeping yourself saved. I do not think any of the disciples would be out there preaching if the Good News was not really the Good News.

The problem here is that NOSAS are using verses that refers to the consequence for not looking unto Jesus Christ as their Good Shepherd in discerning & laying aside every weight & sin in abiding in Him as His disciples in running that race ( 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 & Hebrews 12:1-29 ).

This is why God will judge His House first ( 1 Peter 4:17-19 ) at the pre trib rapture event where professing believers in iniquity, will be denied attendance to the Marriage Supper ( Luke 13:24-30 ) & be left behind to face the coming fire on the earth ( Luke 12:40-49 ) & the subsequent great tribulation ( Revelation 2:21-23 ) wherein they will be received later on as vessels unto dishonour in His House ( 2 Timothy 2:19-21 ) which means they are still saved, but NOSAS do not see that unless God peradventures to help them to see that truth of the power of God in salvation for all those that believe, even in His name, but of course, no believer would want to be left behind for there will be weeping & gnashing of teeth.

Sometimes NOSAS uses verses that is referencing being saved from what is coming on the earth as opposed to being saved by Jesus Christ, and thus sometimes, they take that to mean the same thing when it is not. To be partakers with Christ unto eternal life means being of the firstfruits that will be like the angels that never die ( Luke 20:34-36 ). That is the eternal glory that comes with our salvation of being received as a vessel unto honour in His House. ( 2 Timothy 2:10-13 )

So I believe OSAS is true so I can tell others the Good News that Jesus Christ IS the Saviour because I am saved, and I lean on Him to share how I trust Jesus Christ as my Good Shepherd in helping me to discern & depart from iniquity in running that race as I am resting in Him & His promises to me to finish what He has started in me to His glory.

I am saved by the grace of God & by faith in Jesus Christ as my Saviour just as I run that race by the grace of God & by faith in Jesus Christ as my Good Shepherd. That is why it is simply written that the just shall live by faith.
 
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