OSAS vs NOSAS

[MishSill]

Every single time the scriptures exhort sinners to repent, it is exorting them to make a choice, hence it is asserting free will. A choice cannot be made without the freedom to choose between options.


It doesn't. God seeks US out and furthermore desires that all would be saved (1 Timothy 2:4). The grace of God comes to every person in their own way, and each is responsible to respond to that grace, either in acceptance or rejection. All who are condmened in the end will have truly chosen their fate. God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 18:23, 32).

Totally agree here.

2 Thessalonians 2:3New King James Version (NKJV)
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sina]">[a] is revealed, the son of perdition,

"falling away" from what?...this couldn't be directed at the unsaved. This is describing people falling away from their faith.


John 15:1-6 makes it clear that those in Christ who don't bear fruit will not be saved.

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower.
He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes so that it bears more fruit.
You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you.
Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned."

Add to this the numerous parables of our Lord including the parable of the virgins, the parable of the talents, the parable of the debtor, etc. To top that off there is near unanimity among the apostolic and early church fathers that believers can and do fall away.

 

[oi_antz]

A great verse, but to understand it, it's really important to quote the whole thing. For instance, did you see vv 28-29? Do those verses sound like somebody who has been born again?

No, it doesn't. But I wonder though, whether you think it is impossible for someone who has been born again to deliberately keep on sinning and to treat as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and to insult the spirit of grace? I certainly think it is possible.

 

[South Bound]

No, it doesn't. But I wonder though, whether you think it is impossible for someone who has been born again to deliberately keep on sinning and to treat as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and to insult the spirit of grace? I certainly think it is possible.

No. Per the Bible's description, I do not.

 

[oi_antz]

No. Per the Bible's description, I do not.

Please provide the description you are referring to, thanks.

 

[South Bound]

Please provide the description you are referring to, thanks.

Among others, Romans 6:1-14

1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

 

[JustHisKid]

Is God a failure because so many people are in hell?

Is that a serious question?

No of course not... they are in hell because they chose to reject His mercy.

Because they choose to reject His Son, quite specifically.

God has the best system of salvation but He wants genuine hearts. He wants us to love Him out of our own free will.

Of course, and when someone repents and is born-again, He takes over.

 

[MishSill]

[

Is that a serious question?

It was said in response to the statement made that God cannot fail. He doesn't but we do. The point always goes back to freedom of choice. His plan for us is perfect but we are far from perfect.

Because they choose to reject His Son, quite specifically.

For the record when I refer to God, I refer to God the father, God the son and God the Holy Spirit.

Of course, and when someone repents and is born-again, He takes over.

Amen He does but He doesn't control us. He always from the moment we get saved, responds to our faith in Him.

 

[oi_antz]

Among others, Romans 6:1-14

I immediately ask why St Paul was motivated to say this, as though someone who is born again needs to be reminded of this. It even seems to be saying more or less the same as what Hebrews 10 is saying WRT repentance. I think you haven't made your case as strong as it needs to be, to be convincing. Thank you for your responses all the same.

 

[oi_antz]

when someone repents and is born-again, He takes over.

What do you mean "takes over" - what is it that He takes over, and who does He take it over from? I think you are assuming this turn of phrase is common knowledge, but as you can see, I have questions about it so others including OP must be wondering what you exactly mean too.

 

[football5680]

I don't believe in it and even if it was true, it would be largely meaningless.

There is an irreconcilable dilemma at the heart of this belief. If you say believing in Jesus at one point in time saves you, then you can become an apostate and reject the existence of God and still be saved. The Bible clearly states that people like this won't be saved so to uphold this belief you are forced to say that these people were never saved in the first place. These people could have held the exact same beliefs as you, but they fell away from the faith afterwards. If you cannot tell whether you are saved or not based solely on your beliefs, then you would have no idea what category you were in. You may belong to the people who were never saved in the first place.

 

[oi_antz]

I don't believe in it and even if it was true, it would be largely meaningless.

There is an irreconcilable dilemma at the heart of this belief. If you say believing in Jesus at one point in time saves you, then you can become an apostate and reject the existence of God and still be saved. The Bible clearly states that people like this won't be saved so to uphold this belief you are forced to say that these people were never saved in the first place. These people could have held the exact same beliefs as you, but they fell away from the faith afterwards. If you cannot tell whether you are saved or not based solely on your beliefs, then you would have no idea what category you were in. You may belong to the people who were never saved in the first place.

Right! If being saved is all about belief, then at what time must someone have the right beliefs? (deathbed, any time prior, every moment of the day - what is the "right belief" anyway?). Whereas Jesus Christ tells in Matthew 25 that His criteria for salvation are determined by character, it seems to indicate in context of this question that those of suitable character will become Christian when they encounter Him. I guess this is what it means, if someone of suitable character becomes Christian, can they ever lose their salvation? Really what "saved" is must be established. This is why OP, if you really are seeking an answer, only then you will find it. But you have said that you are only interested to know what Christians think, so it limits your ability to really understand. However, Christians are having good time getting more clarity of their own understandings

 

[South Bound]

I immediately ask why St Paul was motivated to say this, as though someone who is born again needs to be reminded of this. It even seems to be saying more or less the same as what Hebrews 10 is saying WRT repentance.

Because the purpose of his letters was to teach those in the church and because not everybody in the churc was/is a Christian.

I think you haven't made your case as strong as it needs to be, to be convincing.

Don't care. It isn't my job to convince people of the Gospel.

 

[JustHisKid]

It was said in response to the statement made that God cannot fail. He doesn't but we do. The point always goes back to freedom of choice. His plan for us is perfect but we are far from perfect.

And once a person is saved, they become God's child and God takes over. Do you know what born-again is?

For the record when I refer to God, I refer to God the father, God the son and God the Holy Spirit.

There was no need to put that on record. That is who God is.

Amen He does but He doesn't control us. He always from the moment we get saved, responds to our faith in Him.

Nope. We are weak. If he left our salvation in our hands, nobody would be saved.

 

[oi_antz]

Retracted. Sent in pm instead.

 

[South Bound]

I think you should pray about this

Why? The Bible already addresses it. What? Is Jesus going to say, "OK. Forget everything I said in My Word, it's up to you to do the Holy Spirit's job"?

Nobody lights a candle and puts it under the bed.

I didn't. You asked a question and I provided a passage of scripture to answer it.

Essentially by not giving a sufficient explanation

Sorry you feel that passage isn't sufficient, but it answers your question in great detail.

I am only disgusted that you are proud to not care.

Again, don't care.

 

[JustHisKid]

Retracted. Sent in pm instead.

No human can convince anyone to believe the gospel. That is the work of the Holy Spirit. Believers share it and let God do what He will do.

 

[oi_antz]

No human can convince anyone to believe the gospel. That is the work of the Holy Spirit. Believers share it and let God do what He will do.

Humans pervert the gospel, for many number of reasons. You will know them by their fruits.

 

[JustHisKid]

Humans pervert the gospel, for many number of reasons. You will know them by their fruits.

That has nothing to do with my comment.

 

[oi_antz]

Why?

Wow.

 

[South Bound]

Wow.

Thanks for not bothering to quote my explanation. That seems honest.