OSAS vs NOSAS

[MishSill]

So sinning is not going to cause you to loose your salvation, but definitively rejecting Christ will.

Not sure I honestly agree with this.

Romans 6:1-2New King James Version (NKJV)
Dead to Sin, Alive to God
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

and how about this:

1 Corinthians 6:9New King James Version (NKJV)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,a]" data-fn="#fen-NKJV-28477a">[a] nor sodomites,

 

[ALoveDivine]

Not sure I honestly agree with this.

Those verses seem to be indicating sinning as a continuous style of life. If you are in Christ, you can't live that like, you will be convicted and tormented by your conscience. Once you are in that spot, there are only two options. Repentance, or forsaking Christ and running off to the world.

I should know, I've been in that situation and have fallen away. I'm convinced now that if I would have died during those times, I would have been condemned. But by the grace and mercy of God I did not and I am still here. So let me make this clear, sin is very dangerous. Too much of it will bring you into conflict with yourself, the old man verses the new. The more you love your sin the more likely you are to actually fall away and forsake Christ. It CAN happen! We need to flee sin because it can bring us to that edge of apostasy.

But that is all quite different than asserting, like most Catholics do, that certain sins will damn your soul. Rather, the more you wallow in sin and come to love it, the more likely you are to apostasize and then consequently be lost.

 

[MishSill]

My apologies I misunderstood your post.

 

[South Bound]

Joshua 24:15

First of all, the fact that the verse begins with "and" should have to you that you're misquoting it.

Second, Joshua isn't referring to born again believers.

Revelation 3:20

OK. Since you weren't honest enough to quote the verses, I guess I'll have to do that for you, too.

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. "

Please tell us how this verse is supposed to mean that Christ can lose our salvation.

1 Corinthians 10:13

"No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it."

Again, where does this verse say anything about Christ losing our salvation?

Acts 2:38-39

"And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”"

Where does this verse say anything about Christ losing our salvation?

John 8:10-11

"Jesus stood up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more."

Where does this say anything about Christ losing our salvation?

Would you like more?

Since literally not one of the verses you posted say anything every remotely like what you claimed, and since I had to do the work of quoting them for you, no thanks.

The fact that literally not one of the verses you posted say what you claim they said, I think you've just demonstrated your post to be nonsense.

 

[MishSill]

First of all, the fact that the verse begins with "and" should have to you that you're misquoting it.

Second, Joshua isn't referring to born again believers.



OK. Since you weren't honest enough to quote the verses, I guess I'll have to do that for you, too.

"Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. "

Please tell us how this verse is supposed to mean that Christ can lose our salvation.



"No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it."

Again, where does this verse say anything about Christ losing our salvation?



"And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”"

Where does this verse say anything about Christ losing our salvation?



"Jesus stood up and said to her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more."

Where does this say anything about Christ losing our salvation?



Since literally not one of the verses you posted say anything every remotely like what you claimed, and since I had to do the work of quoting them for you, no thanks.

The fact that literally not one of the verses you posted say what you claim they said, I think you've just demonstrated your post to be nonsense.

My position is free will and everyone of those scriptures support it, whether a person chooses to initially receive Christ and continue to walk in sanctification or regress back into sin.

PS. given that a person is seeking and you and I are Christians I don't think that hurling insults using words like "nonsense" makes for a very good witness to the person seeking do you?

Next time why don't you try stating your position instead and how that conflicts with mine.

 

[South Bound]

My position is free will and everyone of those scriptures support it, whether a person chooses to initially receive Christ and continue to walk in sanctification or regress back into sin.

PS. given that a person is seeking and you and I are Christians I don't think that hurling insults using words like "nonsense" makes for a very good witness to the person seeking do you?

Next time why don't you try stating your position instead and how that conflicts with mine.

 

[South Bound]

I'm not doubting that you're a Christian. You just have a terribly Unbiblical understanding of soteriology and justification. You say I should just let your errors slide for the sake of witnessing, but what sort of witness does it give to accept error?

 

[MishSill]

I'm not doubting that you're a Christian. You just have a terribly Unbiblical understanding of soteriology and justification. You say I should just let your errors slide for the sake of witnessing, but what sort of witness does it give to accept error?

I'm certainly not asking you to let slide what you believe is an error. But making insulting remarks is hardly the manner in which to correct it and nor is the OP going to understand exactly what is wrong about it.

I didn't copy out the scriptures in full because I was annoyed at the tone of your post.

You are questioning how does free will apply to Jesus standing and the door and knocking? Isn't that the very essence of the gentlemen that He is giving us the free choice to open the door and have him dine with us?

You are saying that because a scripture begins with an "and" I'm misquoting??? I'm pointing out the scripture is once again giving a choice. Joshua says "choose this day whom you will serve". You are talking about born again believers and I'm talking about free will.

Mary who didn't get stoned, Jesus didn't condemn her either and told her to go and "sin no more". This indicates again to me that even after salvation a person can lose it by regressing back into sin again if they choose to.

Now would you like to please explain your stance on here so we can see what is different.

 

[South Bound]

You are questioning how does free will apply to Jesus standing and the door and knocking?

First of all, free will isn't what said. You said that salvation was contingent on the sinner and could be lost.

Second, read the whole passage. It has nothing to do with free will.

Isn't that the very essence of the gentlemen that He is giving us the free choice to open the door and have him dine with us?

God isn't a "gentleman". He's God. He saves according to His pleasure and His glory, not according to our will and our desire. Just as a dead man cannot dial 911, a spiritually dead man cannot repent or seek God. And when He does save, salvation is of the Lord, not of man. It is God will chooses, God who ordains, God who calls, God who regenerates, God who justifies, and God who holds our salvation, not us.

You are saying that because a scripture begins with an "and" I'm misquoting???

Yes. "And" should have told you that you weren't quoting from the beginning. But then, you already knew that.

I'm pointing out the scripture is once again giving a choice. Joshua says "choose this day whom you will serve".

And what is the context of that snippet?

You are talking about born again believers and I'm talking about free will.

Yes, because the issue is whether or not Christ can lose a born again believer's salvation.

Mary who didn't get stoned, Jesus didn't condemn her either and told her to go and "sin no more". This indicates again to me that even after salvation a person can lose it by regressing back into sin again if they choose to.

Now would you like to please explain your stance on here so we can see what is different.[/QUOTE]

 

[JustHisKid]

I'm certainly not asking you to let slide what you believe is an error. But making insulting remarks is hardly the manner in which to correct it and nor is the OP going to understand exactly what is wrong about it.

I didn't copy out the scriptures in full because I was annoyed at the tone of your post.

You are questioning how does free will apply to Jesus standing and the door and knocking? Isn't that the very essence of the gentlemen that He is giving us the free choice to open the door and have him dine with us?

You are saying that because a scripture begins with an "and" I'm misquoting??? I'm pointing out the scripture is once again giving a choice. Joshua says "choose this day whom you will serve". You are talking about born again believers and I'm talking about free will.

Mary who didn't get stoned, Jesus didn't condemn her either and told her to go and "sin no more". This indicates again to me that even after salvation a person can lose it by regressing back into sin again if they choose to.

Now would you like to please explain your stance on here so we can see what is different.

When someone is born again, they cannot be unborn again. The Holy Spirit is given as a deposit of the guarantee of the inheritance of eternal life. Jesus finishes the work He begins. He never fails.

 

[aiki]

Mary who didn't get stoned, Jesus didn't condemn her either and told her to go and "sin no more". This indicates again to me that even after salvation a person can lose it by regressing back into sin again if they choose to.

I appreciate that there are parts of my last post with which you agree, but this statement of yours above is, I think, a dangerous (and unbiblical) position to take. Your salvation is God's doing, not yours. And your continued membership in His family is also His doing. He saves you and He keeps you saved (see my last post for Scripture references). You give yourself far too much power in your relationship with God - a relationship that is entirely His doing - when you make that relationship contingent upon your ability to maintain it. The clear message of Scripture is that you are, in and of yourself, utterly devoid of the capacity to save yourself, or of the desire even to want to be saved (see the first three verses of Ephesians 2). And after you're saved there remains a tension between your old, fleshly Self and the new creature in Christ you've become (Ro 7:14-24; Ga. 5:17). Left to your own devices, you would soon resort to your old manner of living, a life that is centered upon you rather than upon God. Fortunately, God takes the initiative - as He always must with us - and works in us by His Spirit to do for us what we cannot do for ourselves. All along the road we walk with God we are helpless to be who God wants us to be. Only as God supplies to us by His Spirit what we need to be "godly in Christ Jesus" can we actually be so. How, then, can our salvation be dependent upon us?

Philippians 2:13
13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Jude 1:24-25
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
25 To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen.

2 Corinthians 3:18
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.

There is also another problem with the idea that you can sin sufficiently to lose your salvation: No one knows exactly where the line is between being saved and not being saved. Is it five sins, or ten, or fifty that will lose you your salvation? Who is to say? God offers no remark in His Word about how many sins makes you unsaved. Maybe only sinning once puts you out of God's family! Who knows? This uncertainty, I have noticed, produces a fearful and legalistic approach to Christian living. And many are content to have this fear of losing their salvation as an incentive to behave rightly. Of course, it is very hard to love the Person who threatens you with ejection from His family and eternal hell every time you put a foot wrong. How does one obey the first and great commandment to love God with all one's being (Matt. 22:38) if one is constantly afraid of Him? As the apostle John points out,

1 John 4:18-19
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.
19 We love Him because He first loved us.

I think if you understood better the basis of your justification and your acceptance with God, you would abandon the idea that you can do anything to reverse the salvation God has accomplished for you.

Selah.

 

[ALoveDivine]

This really all hinges on your view of the atonement. Did Jesus suffer wrath for specific sins in the place of specific people to sasiate the demans of "justice"? The calvinist notion of eternal security would follow.

Or did Christ suffer, die and rise again to defeat death, breaking its power, and reconciling us to God? The old addage of the church fathers, "God became man that man might become God". This ranson/Christus Victor view is certainly the more historical of the two views, going all the way back to the Apostolic fathers.

In this second view of the atonmement the key concept is reconciliation. We were irrevocably estranged from God by sin and its concsequence, death. So Christ became man, uniting man and God in the incarnation. He gave his life and teachings as an example to all of the way of God. He died and rose again and by doing so defeated death once and for all. Now he calls us to repent and be baptized, aka to start the process of sanctification, and to accept his grace on a daily basis, coming to participate in the divine nature. Sanctification is a cooperative process, and is part and parcel of justification and cannot be separated from it.

The penal substitution view is monergistic and does imply eternal security. The historical/Christus Victor view presupposes the reality of free will and implies conditional security. Which view you hold is ultimately going to determine where you come out on this issue.

 

[aiki]

There is a third view: Molinism. I would suggest readers of this thread take a good look at it.

Selah.

 

[oi_antz]

This has turned into an argument between Christians, and I know OP that you are only interested in knowing what various Christians think. On the other hand, I am interested to encourage you to think. Here, I would like to offer some scriptures that may give balance against those offered in Post #10. It might seem to you on first impression that there is inconsistency between those scriptures and these scriptures. I expect that is a consequence of the prerogative that the person presenting the scriptures imposes upon their meaning. But I am able to see them as being entirely consistent. So if you do want to really understand the truth as it was understood by the authors of the biblical scriptures, you will need to think. It is clear and obvious that you cannot rely on others to do that for you. Here you go:

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful.

“His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27 Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.

28 “‘So take the bag of gold from him and give it to the one who has ten bags. 29 For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

.. And to help @South Bound see what is behind MishSill's perspective, please see Hebrews 10:26-27:

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

 

[South Bound]

.. And to help South Bound see what is behind MishSill's perspective, please see Hebrews 10:26-27:

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

A great verse, but to understand it, it's really important to quote the whole thing. For instance, did you see vv 28-29? Do those verses sound like somebody who has been born again?

 

[MishSill]

First of all, free will isn't what said. You said that salvation was contingent on the sinner and could be lost.

Second, read the whole passage. It has nothing to do with free will.

"God gives us a free will.

So whilst I personally believe that it must be difficult for us to turn our backs on God after having known Him, our free will entitles us to do just that.

Free will is in operation until the day we die.

Salvation is offered to the whole world. It is our free choice to make whether we become saved and remain saved.

Salvation is the process of sanctification. It is a daily process. Hence a daily free choice to make."

I copied and paste here exactly what I said.

I don't like people misquoting me. So I won't be addressing the rest of your post or continue communicating with you.

God bless you.

 

[South Bound]

"God gives us a free will.

So whilst I personally believe that it must be difficult for us to turn our backs on God after having known Him, our free will entitles us to do just that.

Free will is in operation until the day we die.

Salvation is offered to the whole world. It is our free choice to make whether we become saved and remain saved.

Salvation is the process of sanctification. It is a daily process. Hence a daily free choice to make."

I copied and paste here exactly what I said.

I don't like people misquoting me. So I won't be addressing the rest of your post or continue communicating with you.

God bless you.

Where does the Bible say the unregenerate have free will? Where does it say that the unregenerate seek or choose God? Where does it say that the unregenerate can repent or have faith on their own? Where does it say that Christ can lose a born again believer's salvation?

 

[ALoveDivine]

Where does the Bible say the unregenerate have free will?

Every single time the scriptures exhort sinners to repent, it is exorting them to make a choice, hence it is asserting free will. A choice cannot be made without the freedom to choose between options.

Where does it say that the unregenerate seek or choose God?

It doesn't. God seeks US out and furthermore desires that all would be saved (1 Timothy 2:4). The grace of God comes to every person in their own way, and each is responsible to respond to that grace, either in acceptance or rejection. All who are condmened in the end will have truly chosen their fate. God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 18:23, 32).

Where does it say that Christ can lose a born again believer's salvation?

John 15:1-6 makes it clear that those in Christ who don't bear fruit will not be saved.

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower.
He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes so that it bears more fruit.
You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you.
Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned."

Add to this the numerous parables of our Lord including the parable of the virgins, the parable of the talents, the parable of the debtor, etc. To top that off there is near unanimity among the apostolic and early church fathers that believers can and do fall away.

 

[MishSill]

I appreciate that there are parts of my last post with which you agree, but this statement of yours above is, I think, a dangerous (and unbiblical) position to take. Your salvation is God's doing, not yours. And your continued membership in His family is also His doing. He saves you and He keeps you saved (see my last post for Scripture references). You give yourself far too much power in your relationship with God - a relationship that is entirely His doing - when you make that relationship contingent upon your ability to maintain it. The clear message of Scripture is that you are, in and of yourself, utterly devoid of the capacity to save yourself, or of the desire even to want to be saved (see the first three verses of Ephesians 2). And after you're saved there remains a tension between your old, fleshly Self and the new creature in Christ you've become (Ro 7:14-24; Ga. 5:17). Left to your own devices, you would soon resort to your old manner of living, a life that is centered upon you rather than upon God. Fortunately, God takes the initiative - as He always must with us - and works in us by His Spirit to do for us what we cannot do for ourselves. All along the road we walk with God we are helpless to be who God wants us to be. Only as God supplies to us by His Spirit what we need to be "godly in Christ Jesus" can we actually be so. How, then, can our salvation be dependent upon us?

Philippians 2:13
13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Jude 1:24-25
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
25 To God our Savior, Who alone is wise, Be glory and majesty, Dominion and power, Both now and forever. Amen.

2 Corinthians 3:18
18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.

There is also another problem with the idea that you can sin sufficiently to lose your salvation: No one knows exactly where the line is between being saved and not being saved. Is it five sins, or ten, or fifty that will lose you your salvation? Who is to say? God offers no remark in His Word about how many sins makes you unsaved. Maybe only sinning once puts you out of God's family! Who knows? This uncertainty, I have noticed, produces a fearful and legalistic approach to Christian living. And many are content to have this fear of losing their salvation as an incentive to behave rightly. Of course, it is very hard to love the Person who threatens you with ejection from His family and eternal hell every time you put a foot wrong. How does one obey the first and great commandment to love God with all one's being (Matt. 22:38) if one is constantly afraid of Him? As the apostle John points out,

1 John 4:18-19
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.
19 We love Him because He first loved us.

I think if you understood better the basis of your justification and your acceptance with God, you would abandon the idea that you can do anything to reverse the salvation God has accomplished for you.

Selah.

Of course the saving work is all God's. If Jesus didn't die on the cross and rose again we wouldn't be saved. It is His power working through in us through the Holy Spirit that continues the sanctification process and it is our choice whether we choose to receive Christ and continue in our walk with Him.

By making that statement I'm not in anyway denying the power of God.

God doesn't impose Himself on us. He wants us to love Him out of our own free will. That's a genuine love.

He gave us an escape from temptation. Again we have to make that choice whether we are going to use the escape route He has provided for us or whether we are going to sucumb to that temptation. Temptations are not of God but are of our own fleshly desires the scriptures tell us.

James 1
12 Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

Clearly God requires holiness from His followers. God has mentioned very specific people who would not inherit the Kingdom the God. The Holy Spirit working working in you is going to convict you when you do sin. What you do with that becomes your free choice to make. The bible clearly tells us to "not be deceived".

1 Corinthians 6:9-10New King James Version (NKJV)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,a]" [a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

That's quite a list and obviously a good guide to the kinds of sins that would leave us separated from God.

These are the sorts of problems that Christians would encounter in their walk with God.

 

[MishSill]

When someone is born again, they cannot be unborn again. The Holy Spirit is given as a deposit of the guarantee of the inheritance of eternal life. Jesus finishes the work He begins. He never fails.

Is God a failure because so many people are in hell?

No of course not... they are in hell because they chose to reject His mercy.

God has the best system of salvation but He wants genuine hearts. He wants us to love Him out of our own free will.