OSAS vs NOSAS

[Stony ground]

What is your position?

 

[grasping the after wind]

Vertical.

 

[oi_antz]

Please clarify the question, especially establish the definition of these abbreviations.

 

[Stony ground]

Vertical.

Very good

 

[Stony ground]

Please clarify the question, especially establish the definition of these abbreviations.

Apologies. Thought it was a common usage

They stand for "once saved always saved" and "not once saved always saved". The debate being, if someone is saved, (whatever you understand by that) can they lose that salvation, or is it for good.

If you Google osas vs nosas you'll find good arguments for both sides.

 

[oi_antz]

Apologies. Thought it was a common usage

They stand for "once saved always saved" and "not once saved always saved". The debate being, if someone is saved, (whatever you understand by that) can they lose that salvation, or is it for good.

If you Google osas vs nosas you'll find good arguments for both sides.

What is "saved"?

 

[Stony ground]

What is "saved"?

What indeed! That's why I included the line about" whatever that means to you". But if a definition is necessary, how about :-
“The deliverance, by the grace of God, from eternal punishment for sin which is granted to those who accept by faith God's conditions of repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus."

 

[oi_antz]

What indeed! That's why I included the line about" whatever that means to you". But if a definition is necessary, how about :-
“The deliverance, by the grace of God, from eternal punishment for sin which is granted to those who accept by faith God's conditions of repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus."

When does this deliverance get applied (I suggest at The Great White Throne), and when can we be certain of it (I suggest the same).

 

[aiki]

I'm very much in the OSAS camp.

 

[Winken]

What is your position?

OSAS verses in the Bible.......

Isaiah 53:11
John 3:6
John 3:14-17
John 4:14
John 6.37
John 6:47-50
John 10:27-29
John 14:6

Romans 8:1
Romans 7:22-23
Romans 8:14-17
Romans 8:22-23
Romans 8:35-39
Romans 10:8-13
Romans 11:29
Romans 13:13-14

1 Corinthians 1:8
1 Corinthians 3:13-15
1 Corinthians 12:12-14

2 Corinthians 5:17
2 Corinthians 11:2

Ephesians 1:7-14
Ephesians 1:22-23
Ephesians 2:1-22
Ephesians 2:5-8
Ephesians 3:1-9
Ephesians 5:25-27

Phillipians 1:6
Philippians 3:20
Galatians 5:13

1 Thessalonians 1:10

I John 5:12-13
Jude 1:1
Titus 2:11-15
Titus 3:3-7

Revelation 2:1-5 was written to Jewish assemblies in what is now Turkey, directly to those who accepted Jesus not by the works of the Law, not by acknowledging Him as the Jewish Messiah, but solely by Grace through Faith. These incredible warnings are not about removing the Gift of Grace through Faith, but about removing the ability of the Christian assemblies there to witness in the Name of Jesus, proclaiming the Good News of the Gospel of Grace. What happened to them? In fact, each of these has been obliterated, without a trace.

 

[ViaCrucis]

What is your position?

The Calvinist doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints (the "P" in the Calvinist TULIP) has largely been retained among Protestants influenced by the Reformed Tradition but who have largely abandoned much of Calvinist thinking and crossed it with Arminian thinking.

As a Lutheran, and thus outside of the entire Calvinist-Arminian debate, the issue is approached very differently. From a Lutheran perspective we can, indeed, turn away from Christ. Scripture is filled with warnings about this very thing. But this is a quite different thing than "losing one's salvation". From a Lutheran perspective you can't just, oopsy, up and "lose your salvation" like a pair of keys. Salvation is not about our strength and ability before God, but God's promise to us in Christ. But, we say, God's promises are found exclusively in Christ. And that's what is truly important here: Christ. If I walk away from Christ, if I reject Christ, then I have rejected my salvation, since my salvation is the graciousness of God toward me in Jesus. It's not something I can lose, but it is something I can reject. Indeed, in one sense it is our rejection of Christ that is the reason why there are "unsaved" at all. Salvation happened two thousand years ago, Christ died for the whole world, that means that Christ died for and saved everybody. Yet man, by his natural lusts, rejects the things of God--which is why from a Lutheran view we cannot choose Christ (Christ chooses us) but we can choose to reject Christ (which is what we do if left to our own devices, without grace)

But, we say, Christ is a Good Shepherd, He's stubborn. Luther called Him the "Hound of Heaven"--He is stubborn and obstinate and will hunt each and every one of us down with His grace, love, and kindness, He will abandon no one and forsake no one. No matter how great our faithlessness, greater still is His faithfulness.

So while we may, indeed, wander; there is a Faithful Friend who will come after us. All of us, seeking us out no matter where we may try and hide, Psalm 139:1-12, even if we make our bed in She'ol there He shall find us, and He shall love us.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Stony ground]

The Calvinist doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints (the "P" in the Calvinist TULIP) has largely been retained among Protestants influenced by the Reformed Tradition but who have largely abandoned much of Calvinist thinking and crossed it with Arminian thinking.

As a Lutheran, and thus outside of the entire Calvinist-Arminian debate, the issue is approached very differently. From a Lutheran perspective we can, indeed, turn away from Christ. Scripture is filled with warnings about this very thing. But this is a quite different thing than "losing one's salvation". From a Lutheran perspective you can't just, oopsy, up and "lose your salvation" like a pair of keys. Salvation is not about our strength and ability before God, but God's promise to us in Christ. But, we say, God's promises are found exclusively in Christ. And that's what is truly important here: Christ. If I walk away from Christ, if I reject Christ, then I have rejected my salvation, since my salvation is the graciousness of God toward me in Jesus. It's not something I can lose, but it is something I can reject. Indeed, in one sense it is our rejection of Christ that is the reason why there are "unsaved" at all. Salvation happened two thousand years ago, Christ died for the whole world, that means that Christ died for and saved everybody. Yet man, by his natural lusts, rejects the things of God--which is why from a Lutheran view we cannot choose Christ (Christ chooses us) but we can choose to reject Christ (which is what we do if left to our own devices, without grace)

But, we say, Christ is a Good Shepherd, He's stubborn. Luther called Him the "Hound of Heaven"--He is stubborn and obstinate and will hunt each and every one of us down with His grace, love, and kindness, He will abandon no one and forsake no one. No matter how great our faithlessness, greater still is His faithfulness.

So while we may, indeed, wander; there is a Faithful Friend who will come after us. All of us, seeking us out no matter where we may try and hide, Psalm 139:1-12, even if we make our bed in She'ol there He shall find us, and He shall love us.

-CryptoLutheran

Wow. That is an amazing answer. Thankyou.

 

[MishSill]

What is your position?

God gives us a free will.

So whilst I personally believe that it must be difficult for us to turn our backs on God after having known Him, our free will entitles us to do just that.

Free will is in operation until the day we die.

Salvation is offered to the whole world. It is our free choice to make whether we become saved and remain saved.

Salvation is the process of sanctification. It is a daily process. Hence a daily free choice to make.

 

[aiki]

What many people seem to badly misunderstand about this business of salvation is who does the saving and on what basis. Salvation is a monergistic work of God. He draws us to Himself (Jn. 6:44), convicts us of sin (Jn. 16:8), persuades us of our desperate need of a Saviour and imparts to us the faith to believe in him (Ro. 12:3, 6; 1Cor. 4:7). But God goes farther still. When we exercise saving faith in Christ (which faith is given to us by God), his righteousness is applied to us, we are clothed in the perfect righteousness of Christ, and thus declared justified and accepted by our Heavenly Father (Ro. 5; Ga. 3:27). All we do, in the end, is receive the salvation God works in us.

So, God takes all the initiative in our coming into relationship with Him. He does not wait for us to begin to look for Him; for our natural inclination is to suppress the knowledge of Him (Ro. 1:18). No, He extends Himself to us even though we are "enemies in our minds toward Him by wicked works" (Col. 1:21) and "children of wrath" walking "according to the course of the World" (Eph. 2: 1-3). God works in spite of our wicked and antagonistic disposition toward Him and brings us to salvation.

Now, if God accepts us only because of our position in Christ, and He has not let our natural, sinful defiance of Him prevent Him from initiating a relationship with us, then our adoption into His family is completely secure. Just as our rebellion and sin were no impediment to God saving us, they continue to be no impediment after we are saved to our continued membership in His family. We are "accepted in the beloved" (Eph. 1:6) who is Christ and such a basis for our acceptance never falters or fails.

The idea that we can reject or walk away from God's work, to hand back to Him our adoption into His family, makes us far too large in our relationship with God and our Heavenly Father far too small. Our relationship with God is His doing, not ours; we are saved because of who God is and what He has done, not because of who we are and what we have done.

Titus 3:5-7
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Our salvation is something He took the initiative in achieving and it is something He takes the initiative in preserving (Phil. 1:6; 1 Thess. 5:23, 24; He. 12:2). Just like the Prodigal never ceased to be his father's son no matter how far he strayed, we never cease to be our Heavenly Father's children no matter how far we stray. God knows we are fickle and, as the famous hymn says, "Prone to wander, prone to leave the One I love"; He knows He can't leave our salvation dependent upon us. And so He hasn't.

Selah.

 

[South Bound]

God gives us a free will.

So whilst I personally believe that it must be difficult for us to turn our backs on God after having known Him, our free will entitles us to do just that.

Free will is in operation until the day we die.

Salvation is offered to the whole world. It is our free choice to make whether we become saved and remain saved.

Salvation is the process of sanctification. It is a daily process. Hence a daily free choice to make.

Do you have a verse for any of that nonsense?

 

[JustHisKid]

What is your position?

Considering being "saved" means you have been born again, your Spirit made alive to God in Christ (because we are all born dead to God, separated from Him), once your spirit is made alive, it cannot be made dead again. When God makes a person's spirit alive to God in Christ, what happens is the Holy Spirit is given to them and the Spirit now dwells in that person, literally. That deposit of the Holy Spirit is a guarantee of the inheritance of eternal life with God. Thus, if a person is truly saved, they are always saved.

 

[MishSill]

Do you have a verse for any of that nonsense?

Surely...
Joshua 24:15
Revelation 3:20
1 Corinthians 10:13
Acts 2:38-39
John 8:10-11

Would you like more?

 

[MishSill]

The idea that we can reject or walk away from God's work, to hand back to Him our adoption into His family, makes us far too large in our relationship with God and our Heavenly Father far too small. Our relationship with God is His doing, not ours; we are saved because of who God is and what He has done, not because of who we are and what we have done.

Actually it makes God the loving God that He is.

Yes it is the saving work of Christ that redeems us. It is His free gift and it is up to us whether we receive that Gift.

 

[MishSill]

He draws us to Himself (Jn. 6:44),

convicts us of sin (Jn. 16:8)

All we do, in the end, is receive the salvation God works in us.

So, God takes all the initiative in our coming into relationship with Him. He does not wait for us to begin to look for Him; for our natural inclination is to suppress the knowledge of Him (Ro. 1:18).

I totally agree with all of the above.

 

[ALoveDivine]

We are eternally secure in Christ. Its all about relationship, if we have an ongoing relationship with Christ we can be absolutely assured of our justification. Justification is by faith and not by works, so even our sins and faliures cannot in and of themselves separate us from the love of God in Christ.

However we can, as scripture seems to make clear, by conscious and deliberate apostasy, reject this saving relationship with Christ and go our own way. We would at the point no longer be in Christ, and would then not be secure. So sinning is not going to cause you to loose your salvation, but definitively rejecting Christ will.