OSAS/Perseverance of saints & salvation without faith

[Sam91]

I'm working right now., but I'll try to get back to this post when I can spend some time on it. Thanks.

Thank you very much!

 

[Tree of Life]

To you who believe in OSAS or "eternal security" or "perseverance of the saints". Which of you hold to a perspective that a believer will still be saved even if he loses faith?

I ask that because of this guy who believes in either OSAS, "eternal security" or "perseverance of the saints":



"How is it one can be saved without faith:

Heb.11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Jn.3:36 he who is believing in the Son, hath life eonian; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him.

Col.1:22 But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence— 23 if indeed you continue in your faith,...."




"I've never heard that one before. [Though i think i'd stick with Heb.11:6 & Jn.3:36 as quoted before.] I wonder if all those who believe in "eternal security" (or OSAS or "Perseverance of the saints") hold to such a view."

"If i understand your viewpoint, it is that 1 Tim.1:19-20 refers to believers who lost their faith but are still saved while in unbelief. The same passage refers to such being given over to Satan for correction. The only other passage referring to such a giving over to Satan for correction is 1 Cor.5:4-5. But there its purpose is to bring a so-called "brother", who was "wicked" (vs.11-13) to salvation (v.5). He wasn't saved & was receiving the same exact discipline prescribed by Paul as those of 1 Tim.1:19-20 (those who you interpret to be saved while in unbelief & having thown away a good conscience, i.e. living in sin, just as the one referred to in 1 Cor.5:4-5. If anything those of 1 Tim.1:19-20 appear worse than he of 1 Cor.5:4-5, yet you're saying the worse is saved while the better of the two needs salvation. Likewise those of Heb.6 & 10 seem worse than the guy who needs salvation in 1 Cor.5:4-5)."

I whole heartedly confess the doctrine of the preservation of the saints but I believe what this gentleman is teaching is a terrible perversion of that doctrine. The true reformed doctrine of preservation of the saints teaches that God preserves the faith of the elect throughout their lives and that they do not ultimately lose their faith. It's possible for the elect to struggle or backslide for a time, but they cannot ultimately lose their faith. They will recover by God's sovereign grace.

 

[Stringfellow_Hawke]

It doesn't mean ignoring anything, but rather understanding them differently when realizing multiple aspects are in play, not just salvation.

If you wish to show me the verses that describe the steps to be unsealed, or talking God into recreating us again back into a fallen state, or even what price God will accept for us to purchase ourselves from Him, feel free to do so. I haven't found them.

^^^ this ^^^

On a funny note I can never get a word in on these threads you all always beat me to it. lol.

 

[jamesbond007]

The trouble with OSAS proponents here is that they do not have answers. They do and they don't.

I agree that perseverance of the saints and eternal security is Biblical doctrine. From there, I have no problem with someone who is truly "saved."

Then I think of renowned atheist Richard Dawkins. Say he gives up his faith in atheism one day and says he's seen the light and converts to Christianity. This is a big change. He says he's saved and OSAS per God. The next day, he changes his mind once again and reverts back to atheism, speaking, criticizing God and Christians, and writing books with more fervor. He states that he has the best of both worlds. He even mocks God by asking, "Do you know why God created snakes? He was practicing before creating atheists. What's wrong with this picture?

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

I ask that because of this guy who believes in either OSAS, "eternal security" or "perseverance of the saints":

OSAS is not the same as eternal security and perseverance of the saints, which are both Calvinistic concepts. In fact, it appears to be mostly an Arminian take on the same verses that give rise to Calvinistic thought.

Once saved always saved means that people who accept Christ can backslide, but they are ultimately still saved, except in a minority of cases where there is the unforgivable sin (however it is defined), or outright apostasy (however that differs from backsliding).

The eternal security concept appeals to God's preordaining of events and his ability to see the final outcome from the very beginning. When you consider that he sees the final outcome as a done deal already, then you understand that for God there is no question of gaining and losing salvation as though the final outcome kept changing and keeping God guessing. Also, if you consider that God decides the outcome, then gaining and losing salvation would only imply an unflattering fickleness.

 

[Cement]

The way I see it is if you have faith it means you have a love of the truth. To know the truth is to know who Jesus is and what he did. You cant lose your faith because you would literally have to hate the truth and reject it outright by asking God himself to remove your faith from you. I suppose you can do that but why would anyone do such a thing?

 

[SeventyOne]

Then I think of renowned atheist Richard Dawkins. Say he gives up his faith in atheism one day and says he's seen the light and converts to Christianity. This is a big change. He says he's saved and OSAS per God. The next day, he changes his mind once again and reverts back to atheism, speaking, criticizing God and Christians, and writing books with more fervor. He states that he has the best of both worlds. He even mocks God by asking, "Do you know why God created snakes? He was practicing before creating atheists. What's wrong with this picture?

He could also say said he's a bird for one day and then human again the next, but that doesn't mean he ever grew feathers and flew. People say a lot of stupid things.

 

[ChristaLife]

To you who believe in OSAS or "eternal security" or "perseverance of the saints". Which of you hold to a perspective that a believer will still be saved even if he loses faith?

I ask that because of this guy who believes in either OSAS, "eternal security" or "perseverance of the saints":



"How is it one can be saved without faith:

Heb.11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Jn.3:36 he who is believing in the Son, hath life eonian; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him.

Col.1:22 But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence— 23 if indeed you continue in your faith,...."




"I've never heard that one before. [Though i think i'd stick with Heb.11:6 & Jn.3:36 as quoted before.] I wonder if all those who believe in "eternal security" (or OSAS or "Perseverance of the saints") hold to such a view."

"If i understand your viewpoint, it is that 1 Tim.1:19-20 refers to believers who lost their faith but are still saved while in unbelief. The same passage refers to such being given over to Satan for correction. The only other passage referring to such a giving over to Satan for correction is 1 Cor.5:4-5. But there its purpose is to bring a so-called "brother", who was "wicked" (vs.11-13) to salvation (v.5). He wasn't saved & was receiving the same exact discipline prescribed by Paul as those of 1 Tim.1:19-20 (those who you interpret to be saved while in unbelief & having thown away a good conscience, i.e. living in sin, just as the one referred to in 1 Cor.5:4-5. If anything those of 1 Tim.1:19-20 appear worse than he of 1 Cor.5:4-5, yet you're saying the worse is saved while the better of the two needs salvation. Likewise those of Heb.6 & 10 seem worse than the guy who needs salvation in 1 Cor.5:4-5)."

Suffer ship wreck means lost salvation. Given over to Satan means their names were blotted out of the book of life. Satan corrects no one He is always seeking whom he may devoir.

 

[RaymondG]

To be saved is to have found the truth be set free. And one whom the Son sets free is free indeed. Once you know the truth, you cant un-know it.....this is not to be confused with hearing or learning the truth from others.

I think the problem lies in that many claim salvation before being set free....and therefore stop working out their soul salvation in fear and trembling.

This is why I always felt that verbally ensuring someone else place in heaven is much worse than condemning one to hell.

You can lose faith in what you have been taught and stop believing it.......But when you know something....you cannot un-know it.

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

 

[Cement]

He could also say said he's a bird for one day and then human again the next, but that doesn't mean he ever grew feathers and flew. People say a lot of stupid things.

Usually the "ex"Christians I meet and ask are often the type that always held onto a belief in evolution, didn't take the account of the Biblical flood as literal always trying to cram some new scientific find into the Biblical narrative and some even went as far as to doubt the existence of satan yet we are to believe that these were "genuine" brethren also believed in Jesus bodily resurrection?

 

[Call me Nic]

To be saved is to have found the truth be set free. And one whom the Son sets free is free indeed. Once you know the truth, you cant un-know it.....this is not to be confused with hearing or learning the truth from others.

I think the problem lies in that many claim salvation before being set free....and therefore stop working out their soul salvation in fear and trembling.

This is why I always felt that verbally ensuring someone else place in heaven is much worse than condemning one to hell.

You can lose faith in what you have been taught and stop believing it.......But when you know something....you cannot un-know it.

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

Are you implying that there is some amount of time between calling upon the name of the Lord in faith to be saved, and the dispensation of one's actual salvation given by God?

 

[RaymondG]

Are you implying that there is some amount of time between calling upon the name of the Lord in faith to be saved, and the dispensation of one's actual salvation given by God?

Time doesnt exist...so no there is no time. What does it mean to you to call upon the name of the Lord in faith?

 

[Call me Nic]

Time doesnt exist...so no there is no time. What does it mean to you to call upon the name of the Lord in faith?

What the Bible says: to confess the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead (Romans 10:9).

And you dodged my question, so I'll rephrase it - Once a person calls upon the name of the Lord in order to be saved, are you implying that God will not immediately save them at that point, and that their salvation will come later?

 

[RaymondG]

What the Bible says: to confess the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead (Romans 10:9).

And you dodged my question, so I'll rephrase it - Once a person calls upon the name of the Lord in order to be saved, are you implying that God will not immediately save them at that point, and that their salvation will come later?

Beautiful scripture....Seems plain and simple and easy to understand.....but is it really? How many go to God about this verse and ask Him to reveal the meaning... How many read and let their carnal minds tell them the meaning?

Lets forget about the spirit and focus on the letters. It says to do this and thou Shall be saved.....Does this not imply that it will happen some time after the preceding tasks are complete? Wouldnt there have been better words to use if the writer wanted to convey that there was no gap in between saying words and salvation coming. Something like, if you say this and believe that, your ARE saved?

Then there is the issue of belief. Saying you believe is not the same as believing....and only God and the person can know what one truly believe.

We cant forget the verses that state to feel after Him, to Seek Him, Having Patience, enduring to the END, after which the same are saved.

The way is narrow and few find it. It isnt as easy as you make it out to be.....but at the same time...it is.....

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Usually the "ex"Christians I meet and ask are often the type that always held onto a belief in evolution, didn't take the account of the Biblical flood as literal always trying to cram some new scientific find into the Biblical narrative and some even went as far as to doubt the existence of satan yet we are to believe that these were "genuine" brethren also believed in Jesus bodily resurrection?

1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because ... No one who is born of God will continue to sin,


1 John 4 MSG
1 My dear friends, don't believe everything you hear. Carefully weigh and examine what people tell you. Not everyone who talks about God comes from God. There are a lot of lying preachers loose in the world.

 

[friend of]

Given over to Satan means their names were blotted out of the book of life

Then Paul wouldn't have wanted them handed over if it meant they would lose their souls. Paul was open to the idea of sacrificing his very self if it meant that more would convert to Christianity. That's the sort of selfless person Paul was.

 

[Basil the Great]

Both the pro-OSAS camp and the anti-OSAS folks quote Scripture to prove their case. I look at it this way. Do we not have free will? Does free will stop when we become a Christian? Does God suddenly take away our free will and control us like puppets on a string? We have all heard stories of Christians who experience severe hardship and some of them lose their faith. Who are we to say that 100% of these people were never true Christians? Sorry, but free will seems like the bottom line to me here and I cannot believe that we lose our free will and/or that God will somehow control us and prevent us from renouncing our faith, at some point in our life after we accept Jesus. As to those of you who admit that a Christian can lose his faith, but will eventually return to it before his/her death, it seems very unlikely that such has been the case for every Christian who lost his/her faith.

 

[Sam91]

Both the pro-OSAS camp and the anti-OSAS folks quote Scripture to prove their case. I look at it this way. Do we not have free will? Does free will stop when we become a Christian? Does God suddenly take away our free will and control us like puppets on a string? We have all heard stories of Christians who experience severe hardship and some of them lose their faith. Who are we to say that 100% of these people were never true Christians? Sorry, but free will seems like the bottom line to me here and I cannot believe that we lose our free will and/or that God will somehow control us and prevent us from renouncing our faith, at some point in our life after we accept Jesus. As to those of you who admit that a Christian can lose his faith, but will eventually return to it before his/her death, it seems very unlikely that such has been the case for every Christian who lost his/her faith.

I was struck today while compiling a list of verses which to me speak against OSAS (many comforting verses also popped into my head, praise God) that many verses speak of overcoming to the end and then salvation. (To me anyway.. from my understanding)

I know that it says were are sealed with the Holy Spirit on coming into faith. But I wonder now if there is something a lot more that our brains struggle to process. Having attained it and attaining it and will attain it if we overcome. Similar kind of process of being sanctified and the ongoing process of santification. Past, present and future in one. I can't describe the fullness of the concept. (I hope this isn't me being like a puffed up person with fine sounding theories mentioned in Colossians 2:8 . I guess time and prayer will tell if it's my imagination thinking these concepts.)

Like we are saved at that point but through persevering we attain salvation at the end. For example when Paul writes Philippians 3:12

I think that we maybe are skewed by the laws of physics and time that we find it impossible to fully comprehend. I can feel the concepts of these things lately but never quite able to put into words the extra dimension of what I'm trying to say.

 

[friend of]

Like we are saved at that point but through persevering we attain salvation at the end. For example when Paul writes

Another good verse is 1 Peter 1:9

 

[Sam91]

Another good verse is 1 Peter 1:9

Precisely!