OSAS/Perseverance of saints & salvation without faith

[Sam91]

Another thought though. Are we using the word saved wrong? Wouldn't redeemed be more proper. Or born into Christ. What verses use the word saved as a past tense event?

Edit: Quite a few. Some future tense but there are a few past tense. I should have recollected them. So good night all Thank you for tolerating the late night, overtired ramblings.

https://dailyverses.net/salvation

 

[name_is_irrelevant]

To you who believe in OSAS or "eternal security" or "perseverance of the saints". Which of you hold to a perspective that a believer will still be saved even if he loses faith?

Your question literally makes no sense; if they lose faith, they're not a believer.

If you instead mean, their faith is not as apparent as it used to be, or something like this... well that's different. This is an issue of sanctification rather than justification. As Jesus said, "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." The position of those who subscribe to OSAS is basically that. Once someone has been born-again, all sin from that point on, including apparent faithlessness, is indwelling sin. Otherwise, you'd have to subscribe to the idea that a person's state of justification depends on whether they're having a good day or a bad one. If they fail in the moment and end up dying, then they end up in hell. This is a pretty silly position to take and fails to take into account a person's dual spiritual/flesh nature (which St Paul also explains in Romans 7, differentiating between "I myself" versus "my flesh", which is simply Jesus' point reiterated.) One example of failure is St Peter's denial of Christ; though it's obvious given his earlier statements that in his spirit he was willing to stand by Christ even to the point of his own death, his flesh was nonetheless too weak, which is why he ended up denying Him anyway. It can sometimes be tricky to tell between a person who has been born-again yet is in sin, versus someone who hasn't been born-again at all. You have to look for sanctification over time.

 

[JIMINZ]

If we deny Him, He will deny us!


Matthew 10:33

“But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.”

.

Jesus was not speaking about Christians denying Him, He was giving a contrast between those which do believe and those who don't.

Matthew 10:32
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

 

[JIMINZ]

2 Timothy 2:12

“If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:”

.
Paul is not speaking about Christians Denying Jesus, he is giving a contrast, the same as Jesus did in Matthew.

2 Timothy 2:13
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

 

[JIMINZ]

Titus 1:16

“They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.”

.
Paul in speaking to Titus tells him to Ordain Bishops for this very purpose.

Titus 1:9,11
9) Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
10) For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
11) Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

Paul is not saying these are Christians, as you suppose.

 

[JIMINZ]

The OSAS camp tend to say that the person wasn't really saved or he wouldn't have fallen away. They quote Romans 8:38-39

This to me is unbiblical from the way I read the Bible as a whole.

.
How do you then read the Bible a Born Again Believer in Christ falls away, and then comes back, he then Backslides and then comes back.

1Jn 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1Jn 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

 

[JIMINZ]

Not really. Bible tells you.
Revelation 2-3 Jesus actually tells the Churches what to do to prevent them from falling away.
Why are there warnings and admonitions if it can't happen and isn't a real danger?
Does that mean OSAS people just ignore many, many verses?
Do they think they are for someone who isn't saved? We all know works do not justify. So they must be directed to those who are in Him, so that they will remain in Him.

First, lets be aware of who the Letter is written to.

Rev 2:1-3
1) Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
2) I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
3) And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

Rev 2:5
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Is Jesus saying these things to Christians or is He still speaking to the Angel
of the church of Ephesus.

Again, is Jesus speaking to individual Christian Believers when he says these things, or is He still speaking to the Angel of the church of Ephesus.

Rev 2:7
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that over cometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Nuf said.

 

[JIMINZ]

To you who believe in OSAS or "eternal security" or "perseverance of the saints". Which of you hold to a perspective that a believer will still be saved even if he loses faith?

.
That question is a demonstration of a lack of Faith in the Works of Jesus on the Cross for our Salvation.

Which of you who do not believe in OSAS hold to a perspective that a Believer will ever lose his Faith?

 

[ClementofA]

To you who believe in OSAS or "eternal security" or "perseverance of the saints". Which of you hold to a perspective that a believer will still be saved even if he loses faith?

"2. NON-LORDSHIP SALVATION VIEW: GENUINE CHRISTIANS CAN DENY THE FAITH AND YET REMAIN SAVED, ALTHOUGH THEY LOSE THEIR REWARDS IN HEAVEN.
Zane Hodges (Bible Knowledge Commentary, Hebrews [Victor Books]) and the Grace Evangelical Society are the main advocates, along with R. T. Kendall. They hold to a decisional view of salvation and they reduce saving faith to a notional (“mental”) assent that does not include repentance. Once a person believes in Christ, he is eternally secure no matter what his subsequent life is like. He may later become an atheist or he may live in gross sin for the rest of his life. But because he once “believed,” he is eternally secure.

The problems with this view are too numerous to deal with in this message. The biblical books of James and 1 John, and John MacArthur’s Faith Works [Word] refute this view. The Bible is clear that a true believer may sin grievously (David & Peter are examples) and yet be restored. But it is also clear that some profess to believe and yet are not truly saved (Balaam, Judas, Simon Magus, 1 Cor. 15:2; 2 Cor. 6:1; 13:5; Titus 1:16). “By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, ‘I have come to know Him,’ and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him” (1 John 2:3-4). A person who falls away and crucifies again the Son of God, putting Him to open shame, who cannot be renewed to repentance, is not a believer who loses his rewards!"

https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-17-when-repentance-becomes-impossible-hebrews-64-8

 

[ClementofA]

.

Which of you who do not believe in OSAS hold to a perspective that a Believer will ever lose his Faith?

They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. (Lk.8:13)

holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. (1 Tim.1:19)

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. (1 Tim.4:1)

22 But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence— 23 if indeed you continue in your faith (Col.1:22-23a)

How much worse punishment do you think will he deserve, the one having trampled upon the Son of God, and having esteemed ordinary the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and having insulted the Spirit of grace? (Heb.10:29)

 

[JIMINZ]

Does anyone who does not believe in OSAS understand the term?

"ETERNAL LIFE"

Is Eternal Life something we walk back and forth in, if so then it isn't Eternal at all it has become arbitrary.

Arbitrary
Subject to individual will or judgment without restriction, contingent solely upon one's discretion:

 

[Saint Steven]

Here's my take on this.

The basis of our salvation is in receiving, by faith, that which has been done on our behalf. There is really no way for us to undo what has been done on our behalf.

The act of undoing what we have done in receiving salvation has to be done by the one who saved us in the first place. We cannot do this of our own free will.

In the same way that salvation is measured on the basis of what God has done for us, losing our salvation is in the hands of God to decide. We cannot, with a single act, or through many acts undo what we have not done in the first place. It is in the hands of God.

I think God's heart on this subject is seen in the story of the Prodigal. If anyone "deserved" to lose their place in the family, it was the wayward son, due to his actions. Yet what does this story teach?

Furthermore, if we go down the road of believing that this is something we can do of our own free will, how do we measure such a thing? Does one slip-up mean eternal separation from God? How about two? Or one BIG one? Where do you draw the line? You can't, it is in God's hands.

 

[Sam91]

Does anyone who does not believe in OSAS understand the term?

"ETERNAL LIFE"

Is Eternal Life something we walk back and forth in, if so then it isn't Eternal at all it has become arbitrary.

Arbitrary
Subject to individual will or judgment without restriction, contingent solely upon one's discretion:

The words being in bold make this post seem disparaging. I would hesistate to suggest that anyone understands eternal life seeing as none of us understand eternity living a finite life in the physical sense.

I think what is important when talking to brothers and sisters is that while we disagree on some finer points that there is much more that we do agree on.

Those who do not agree on OSAS do believe what the NT says about eternal life. They believe that they have been saved and will enter into salvation. Just take heed of the warnings not to be complacent. (There are a lot of these warnings, I posted at least 30.. That was only a small selection of them.)

Paul in Philippians 3:12-16 did not want to label it as secure but in verse 16 seems to say that it is. But the verses in between speak of persevering.

EDIT: It was 29... I did post over 30 verses but two were of some my favourite verses Proverbs 3:5-6 Romans 8:38-40

 

[Danthemailman]

.

Jesus was not speaking about Christians denying Him, He was giving a contrast between those which do believe and those who don't.

Matthew 10:32
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Amen! In context, this passage relates to the fact that the Pharisees had continuously denied Jesus while the disciples continued to speak about Him in every city they visited. We might paraphrase His teaching this way: "Whoever confesses me before men (such as you disciples), I will confess him before my Father in heaven. But whoever denies me before men (like the Pharisees), I will deny him before my Father in heaven.

Those who confess Jesus are those who recognize Him as being the true Messiah and trust in Him as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Those who deny Jesus (and those who give mere lip service confession) but refuse to trust in Him alone for salvation place themselves beyond any possibility of salvation, since salvation is found only in Him (John 3:15,16,18; 10:9; 14:6).

The word for "deny" is an aorist tense. This points to the fact that Jesus is not talking about a single instance of denial (as was the case with Peter, who actually denied Jesus three times -- Luke 22:56-62) but is referring to life in its entirety. Hence, the person who throughout his life denies Christ (as was typically the case with the Pharisess and includes unbelievers who may even give mere "lip service confession" - Matthew 7:21-23, but lack saving faith in Christ) will be denied by Christ before the Father.

 

[Saint Steven]

... Just take heed of the warnings not to be complacent. (There are a lot of these warnings, I posted at least 30.. That was only a small selection of them.) …

How is complacency measured? Could you have done more? (sure) Does that mean you were complacent to the point of losing your salvation? Where do we draw the line on something that is actually in God's hands to decide?

 

[RaymondG]

How is complacency measured? Could you have done more? (sure) Does that mean you were complacent to the point of losing your salvation? Where do we draw the line on something that is actually in God's hands to decide?

I think the issue is when salvation occurs. If we say we are saved now...but enter into salvation later....isnt it more correct to say we are saved later? after we enter into salvation? It would be obvious then that if we are in heaven....we are saved and wont leave heaven....

Not sure how we can say that we are waiting for a future event, yet we are sure we have that future event now. At best, we can say we believe that we do....

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

"2. NON-LORDSHIP SALVATION VIEW: GENUINE CHRISTIANS CAN DENY THE FAITH AND YET REMAIN SAVED, ALTHOUGH THEY LOSE THEIR REWARDS IN HEAVEN.
Zane Hodges (Bible Knowledge Commentary, Hebrews [Victor Books]) and the Grace Evangelical Society are the main advocates, along with R. T. Kendall. They hold to a decisional view of salvation and they reduce saving faith to a notional (“mental”) assent that does not include repentance. Once a person believes in Christ, he is eternally secure no matter what his subsequent life is like. He may later become an atheist or he may live in gross sin for the rest of his life. But because he once “believed,” he is eternally secure.

The problems with this view are too numerous to deal with in this message. The biblical books of James and 1 John, and John MacArthur’s Faith Works [Word] refute this view. The Bible is clear that a true believer may sin grievously (David & Peter are examples) and yet be restored. But it is also clear that some profess to believe and yet are not truly saved (Balaam, Judas, Simon Magus, 1 Cor. 15:2; 2 Cor. 6:1; 13:5; Titus 1:16). “By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, ‘I have come to know Him,’ and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him” (1 John 2:3-4). A person who falls away and crucifies again the Son of God, putting Him to open shame, who cannot be renewed to repentance, is not a believer who loses his rewards!"

https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-17-when-repentance-becomes-impossible-hebrews-64-8

This is from an old thread that are my concluding thoughts on a discussion with an MJ. that may be relevant to the topic.

Matthew 5:37
Intent is acting in a particular manner for a specific reason using a certain means to reach an end. It's a mental attitude that an individual acts upon so therefore isn't directly provable but must be inferred from surrounding facts and circumstances. It's a state of mind with which the act is done or omitted. Differing from motive, which is what prompts a person to act or to fail to act.

An attitude that in Christian terms is referred to as circumcision of the heart. Outward acts of the old circumcision covenant has been replaced with the covenant of inner acts. The spirit of the law takes the law and applies it to the heart where Christ abides and in yielding (which is the state of mind) to the law in obedience it causes growth within. Something the old law could never do.

Romans 2:28-29

Living by faith and not by sight from the beginning is a mental assent, a yielding of self that takes place within. Faith comes from hearing but not all that hear believe. Only those who believe recieve. Without believing there is no eternal life, only condemnation. Galatians 3:2, Ephesians 1:13

Because we stand before Him rightly accepted thru Christ He becomes to us wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption. Philippians 3:9

The patterns are there. The only thing that remains permanant to this world is child bearing and the means to obtain it. (meaning reproduction of the Spirit in others, like producing like)
Hebrews 1 says that in this day all is made known thru His Son where previously it was made known thru the prophets and various other means.

In the maintainance of the truth to prevent decline, Paul said it's God's will that all His loved ones come to a full knowledge of truth. That the truth is to be maintained thru scripture 1 Timothy 2:15 , that scripture is to be unfolded with precision 2 Timothy 2:15, and that those who deviate from that truth, the reality of what he taught presented in the scriptures, should return to it. 2 Timothy 2:25

Paul taught according to the spirit of the law and never the letter of the law.

ETA circumcision of the heart vs circumcision of the flesh

 

[Sam91]

How is complacency measured? Could you have done more? (sure) Does that mean you were complacent to the point of losing your salvation? Where do we draw the line on something that is actually in God's hands to decide?

We don't. If we love Christ we obey Him. God does the rest. We just need to walk obediently in the Spirit, trusting and fellowshipping with Him.

 

[Loren T.]

Here's my take on this.

The basis of our salvation is in receiving, by faith, that which has been done on our behalf. There is really no way for us to undo what has been done on our behalf.

The act of undoing what we have done in receiving salvation has to be done by the one who saved us in the first place. We cannot do this of our own free will.

In the same way that salvation is measured on the basis of what God has done for us, losing our salvation is in the hands of God to decide. We cannot, with a single act, or through many acts undo what we have not done in the first place. It is in the hands of God.

I think God's heart on this subject is seen in the story of the Prodigal. If anyone "deserved" to lose their place in the family, it was the wayward son, due to his actions. Yet what does this story teach?

Furthermore, if we go down the road of believing that this is something we can do of our own free will, how do we measure such a thing? Does one slip-up mean eternal separation from God? How about two? Or one BIG one? Where do you draw the line? You can't, it is in God's hands.

It seems like you are basically dancing around the question. OSAS just doesn't work in the real world, where people can and do have faith and then lose it, or rather, they deny that Jesus is the one and only way to salvation. I could post many many verses warning believers not to fall for false teachings. I wonder what those verses are in there for, if it is impossible for a believer to fall away and lose his faith. Paul says Christ will mean worthless to you if you go back to believing the lie about the law saving you.
No, just any random sin does not separate you from God, but he doe not force you to believe or continue believing. If he did, your so called faith would not be faith at all.

 

[RaymondG]

It seems like you are basically dancing around the question. OSAS just doesn't work in the real world, where people can and do have faith and then lose it, or rather, they deny that Jesus is the one and only way to salvation. I could post many many verses warning believers not to fall for false teachings. I wonder what those verses are in there for, if it is impossible for a believer to fall away and lose his faith. Paul says Christ will mean worthless to you if you go back to believing the lie about the law saving you.
No, just any random sin does not separate you from God, but he doe not force you to believe or continue believing. If he did, your so called faith would not be faith at all.

Believing does not equal salvation. Once you find Jesus and He leads you to salvation....it is impossible to stop believe that he can....because it is already done....

"He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost."