OSAS/Perseverance of saints & salvation without faith

[Loren T.]

Believing does not equal salvation. Once you find Jesus and He leads you to salvation....it is impossible to stop believe that he can....because it is already done....

"He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost."

Of course it's not impossible to stop believing. If it was, we would not be warned not to follow false teachers, because there would be no danger that we could be led astray. And it's just silly to say all the people who claim they were Christian and are now atheist or agnostic, or some false relgion, were never really believers to begin with.

 

[RaymondG]

Of course it's not impossible to stop believing. If it was, we would not be warned not to follow false teachers, because there would be no danger that we could be led astray. And it's just silly to say all the people who claim they were Christian and are now atheist or agnostic, or some false relgion, were never really believers to begin with.

I just quoted a scripture showing that believing and being filled with the holy spirit is not the same thing. I'm agreeing that one who believes only, can stop believing. The ones who endure to the end, the same are saved.....and once saved you cannot be unsaved..... You know the truth and are set free. free indeed....never to be entangled again in the yoke of bondage. The problem that we call those who believe Saved.....when, like the scripture I quoted, it could be a bit premature. Once coming to the knowledge of the truth....there is no going back.....

 

[Loren T.]

In the verses you quoted, I see no evidence that they were believers in the sense of having knowledge of what Christ had done for them. That is not the case today with people who have been believers and fallen away. It's not that they lack knowledge of what the atonement accomplished. Apples to oranges. Paul is very clear that the Galatians did know. Galatians 3:1. So why is he concerned about them falling for false teaching? How did they receive the spirit? Galatians 3 : 2...by believing. Yes belief does equal having the spirit. They were saved, yet could still be decieved.

 

[RaymondG]

In the verses you quoted, I see no evidence that they were believers in the sense of having knowledge of what Christ had done for them. That is not the case today with people who have been believers and fallen away. It's not that they lack knowledge of what the atonement accomplished. Apples to oranges. Paul is very clear that the Galatians did know. Galatians 3:1. So why is he concerned about them falling for false teaching? How did they receive the spirit? Galatians 3 : 2...by believing. Yes belief does equal having the spirit. They were saved, yet could still be decieved.

I did not know you had the ability to view the contents of the heart and examine the debts and roots of the belief of people of old as well as the people of today. With this new knowledge, what you say must be true and i have no grounds to object....as I do not have this gift.

Thanks for the conversation.

 

[Loren T.]

I did not know you had the ability to view the contents of the heart and examine the debts and roots of the belief of people of old as well as the people of today. With this new knowledge, what you say must be true and i have no grounds to object....as I do not have this gift.

Thanks for the conversation.

I'm going by the context of the verses. They were followers of John and had been taught repentance of sins, but had not had the gospel shared with them, previous to Paul. You say that makes them unsaved. I'm not so sure about that, since others were saved by their faith in the promise, but that doesn't mean they received that Spirit. So we seem to agree that previous to the gospel being proclaimed through the whole world it was possible to be saved by following the extent of the revelation found in the Torah, but that didn't give one the Spirit. But, as I have already shown in Galations 2:2 , the spirit is given at the time of understanding the gospel and believing in Jesus.

 

[ClementofA]

Does anyone who does not believe in OSAS understand the term?

"ETERNAL LIFE"

Is Eternal Life something we walk back and forth in, if so then it isn't Eternal at all it has become arbitrary.

Arbitrary
Subject to individual will or judgment without restriction, contingent solely upon one's discretion:

Eonian life is an inheritance promised only to those who believe. Lose/throw away/reject your faith & your inheritance goes with it.

BTW, the Greek scholar & early church father, Origen, in his commentary on John implies that aionios life is finite:

(19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. " (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).

https://books.google.ca/books?id=Tu...rding to John, Books 13-32, By Origen&f=false

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/chri...scripture-expresses-endless-duration-not.html

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-will-not-change.8070705/page-2#post-72885429
https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-instituted-it-will-not-change.8070705/page-2

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/two-questions.8069145/page-4#post-72837159
http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2931562-does-aionios-always-mean-eternal-ancient.html

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-a-universalism.8070242/page-14#post-72882151

 

[Saint Steven]

It seems like you are basically dancing around the question. OSAS just doesn't work in the real world, where people can and do have faith and then lose it, or rather, they deny that Jesus is the one and only way to salvation. I could post many many verses warning believers not to fall for false teachings. I wonder what those verses are in there for, if it is impossible for a believer to fall away and lose his faith. Paul says Christ will mean worthless to you if you go back to believing the lie about the law saving you.
No, just any random sin does not separate you from God, but he doe not force you to believe or continue believing. If he did, your so called faith would not be faith at all.

I see. So tell me...
How many times have you lost your salvation?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I see. So tell me...
How many times have you lost your salvation?

Once is all it takes.

 

[Saint Steven]

We don't. If we love Christ we obey Him. God does the rest. We just need to walk obediently in the Spirit, trusting and fellowshipping with Him.

Are you saved, or not?

 

[Saint Steven]

Once is all it takes.

So, you have fallen and can't get up?

 

[RaymondG]

Are you saved, or not?

Saved from what? I would like to know your view of what "saved" means. Do you use it as a term for people who believe in Jesus.....or does it mean more?

 

[Saint Steven]

I think the issue is when salvation occurs. If we say we are saved now...but enter into salvation later....isnt it more correct to say we are saved later? after we enter into salvation? It would be obvious then that if we are in heaven....we are saved and wont leave heaven....

Not sure how we can say that we are waiting for a future event, yet we are sure we have that future event now. At best, we can say we believe that we do....

It is by grace we are saved... (past tense) Done deal.
A complete redemptive work. What more can be done than has already been done?

 

[Sam91]

I see. So tell me...
How many times have you lost your salvation?

I doubt very much that he was saying that he had... else Hebrews would come into play. People who do not believe in the doctine of OSAS do not believe that people become unsaved and saved repeatedly. It would be disingenuous to state that they are suggesting that.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So, you have fallen and can't get up?

Look! Up in the SkY! IT's a bird, It's a plane, no it's perniciousness everywhere .....

Why dwell in perniciousness ? Just because most of the world does ?

 

[Sam91]

Are you saved, or not?

I trust and have faith that I am. I see the work God is doing to steer me right when I wander off. He is teaching, guiding and correcting me.

Philippians 1:6

 

[Saint Steven]

Saved from what? I would like to know your view of what "saved" means. Do you use it as a term for people who believe in Jesus.....or does it mean more?

I see it as positional. Having crossed over from death to life.
With no way back. (by our own effort)

John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It is by grace we are saved... (past tense) Done deal.
A complete redemptive work. What more can be done than has already been done?

Actually no always true nor accurate with what God Says - when you pull verses out of Scripture and use them in-appropriately/ wrongly/ you end up with pernicious thoughts and ways.

Nothing more can be done for anyone who gets saved, then who throws away their trust in God and follows after demons instead....
there remains NO MORE sacrifice for their sin - they are forever lost,
as written
in context, in the Bible, in God's Plan, in God's Purpose, Perfectly.

 

[Sam91]

I see it as positional. Having crossed over from death to life.
With no way back. (by our own effort)

John 5:24
“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

I trust then that Galatians 5:22-23 are very evident in your life and heart.

 

[RaymondG]

It is by grace we are saved... (past tense) Done deal.
A complete redemptive work. What more can be done than has already been done?

I agree, however, we have to realize/know this...and not just believe it. Once it is revealed to us, there is no going back. To be saved is to become who we are......to crucify the flesh and become the one who never shall never see death.....which has already been conquered...

I believe that once these things are realized.....you are "Saved" And, unfortunately, will be condemned by every religious person you know.......

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Thankfully Yahweh does not choose to see things the way you do.

I see it as positional. Having crossed over from death to life.
With no way back. (by our own effort)

....