OSAS - I was wrong...again

[eleos1954]

Rejecting Satan is not even necessary for salvation.

rejecting Satan is not an optional part of salvation ; it is a fundamental aspect of choosing Christ. the decision for or against God is the central theme of the war against Christ and Satan, and to accept God means to reject Satan. Rejecting Jesus' invitation is seen as yielding to Satan's influence.

 

[tdidymas]

I would say you are right depending on what you mean by "have a repentant attitude". If you mean that they have been joined to the Lord and are one spirit with Him (1 Cor 6:17), then OK.

That's the implication.

I should have read this more thoroughly before I responded above. You mean to say that a person is saved by faith if he obeys all Jesus' commandments. This POV could only be held in its pure form by someone who believes in sinless perfection. But if wattered down a little bit to allow for repeated instances of disobedience followed by repeated mea culpas, then belief in sinless perfection would not be necessary.

Sorry for the confusion, I didn't mean sinless perfection. My statement means that a person who is born of God is willing to repent from sin and follow all of what Jesus commands (whatever he finds those commands to be) - IOW, hearing His voice and following Him. It's an ongoing lifestyle. It doesn't mean sinless perfection or any such thing. Please reread the statement with this in mind.

This is the same straw man put forth and slain by many, but nobody holds this POV.

I don't agree with you on this. There are MANY apostates in the churches, many tares, many friends of the world and enemies of God. Jesus clearly said "by their fruit you shall know them." This doesn't make a person a "fruit inspector" as you say it. It makes us wary of anyone who claims to be a Christian and slanders you, tries to swindle you, or tries to enroll you into their sin. There are many false teachers, false prophets, false apostles, and false Christians.

Yes, it is true that God corrects His own. Doesn't the fact that we all have partaken of His correction (Heb 12:8) presume that we all sin?

Agreed, no one is perfect.

Again, you have added a phrase that is not in Scripture (i.e., "and backsliding continues until death"). Hebrews 12 does does not say that people who resist His correction until their deaths are not sons. It says that if they are not chastened then they are not sons. This something that only God and the person in question may know and it is invisible to fruit inspectors.

It's what it means. I know that many say "don't judge," but there are many warnings in scripture that if not heeded incur judgment. I think Paul is clear in saying, "if you live according to the flesh, you shall die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the flesh, you will live" in Rom. 8:13, and another like it in Gal. 6:8 "he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that he is talking about spiritual life and death. It is clear that "shall die" and "reap corruption" means lake of fire judgment. If we don't warn people who are practicing sin, how are we any better than the world who doesn't care about their eternal welfare? Of course, I'm talking about sins leading to death (1 Jn. 5:16).

It also takes correct application of Scripture.

When the writer of Hebrews said, "For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His" (Heb 4:10), he followed it up with this:

11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. (Heb 4:11–13)​

God can see everything going on inside a person's heart. Nothing is hidden from His sight. He knows when a person has rested from his own works and has put all his hope in Christ. And He knows when they have not done so. Since we must all give account of ourselves to Him, and since He sees everything going on inside our hearts, we each must be dilligent to enter His rest through ceasing from our own works and fully trusting in Christ for the salvation of our souls. This is what it means to believe in Jesus.

Yes, God knows those who are His. It doesn't mean we shrug our shoulders or wink at someone's sin and "hope" they'll make it. The same writer said, "See that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal."

 

[Guojing]

rejecting Satan is not an optional part of salvation ; it is a fundamental aspect of choosing Christ. the decision for or against God is the central theme of the war against Christ and Satan, and to accept God means to reject Satan. Rejecting Jesus' invitation is seen as yielding to Satan's influence.

Where is your scripture for that?

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

It's what it means. I know that many say "don't judge," but there are many warnings in scripture that if not heeded incur judgment. I think Paul is clear in saying, "if you live according to the flesh, you shall die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the flesh, you will live" in Rom. 8:13, and another like it in Gal. 6:8 "he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that he is talking about spiritual life and death. It is clear that "shall die" and "reap corruption" means lake of fire judgment. If we don't warn people who are practicing sin, how are we any better than the world who doesn't care about their eternal welfare? Of course, I'm talking about sins leading to death (1 Jn. 5:16).

You said OSAS is true for those who believe in Jesus and have a repentant attitude. Here you say there are things that lead to eternal death. One of those things is "living according to the flesh". Another of those things is "sowing to the flesh". You characterize them as "practicing sin". So, if you really do believe in eternal security, it must mean that you believe these are things only lost people can do (otherwise, if a saved person did them, he would lose his salvation and inherit the lake of fire). Am I correct about that?

 

[eleos1954]

Where is your scripture for that?

If one is able to overcome sin it is by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Recognize that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). Victory begins with the admission that you cannot achieve perfection on your own and need God's power.

Accept Jesus' sacrifice. Forgiveness and cleansing from past sins come through accepting Jesus as your Savior. He paid the penalty for sin by dying on the cross and exchanging your sinful record for His spotless record.

The Process of Overcoming Sin

1. Conviction of Sin:
   The Holy Spirit first brings the awareness of sin and wrongdoing to an individual's heart.
   
   
2. Repentance:
   This conviction prompts a desire to repent, which is a change of heart and a turning away from sin.
   
   
3. Forgiveness:
   Through repentance and accepting Jesus Christ, forgiveness is received.
   
   
4. Holy Spirit's Power:
   With forgiveness, the Holy Spirit's power to overcome sin and live a new, Christ-like life becomes available to the believer.

 

[Guojing]

If one is able to overcome sin it is by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Recognize that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). Victory begins with the admission that you cannot achieve perfection on your own and need God's power.

Accept Jesus' sacrifice. Forgiveness and cleansing from past sins come through accepting Jesus as your Savior. He paid the penalty for sin by dying on the cross and exchanging your sinful record for His spotless record.

The Process of Overcoming Sin

1. Conviction of Sin:
   The Holy Spirit first brings the awareness of sin and wrongdoing to an individual's heart.
   
   
2. Repentance:
   This conviction prompts a desire to repent, which is a change of heart and a turning away from sin.
   
   
3. Forgiveness:
   Through repentance and accepting Jesus Christ, forgiveness is received.
   
   
4. Holy Spirit's Power:
   With forgiveness, the Holy Spirit's power to overcome sin and live a new, Christ-like life becomes available to the believer.

You realized "renouncing Satan" is not in any of what you said?

Nuff said

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

It's what it means. I know that many say "don't judge," but there are many warnings in scripture that if not heeded incur judgment. I think Paul is clear in saying, "if you live according to the flesh, you shall die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the flesh, you will live" in Rom. 8:13, and another like it in Gal. 6:8 "he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that he is talking about spiritual life and death. It is clear that "shall die" and "reap corruption" means lake of fire judgment. If we don't warn people who are practicing sin, how are we any better than the world who doesn't care about their eternal welfare? Of course, I'm talking about sins leading to death (1 Jn. 5:16).

Since we are on the same page concerning the eternal salvation of saved people, I would just offer the following for your consideration:

First, the paragraph from Romans is not a warning to people that they are damned if they live according to the flesh. It is a follow-on to the previous paragraph, hitting on the same themes that 1) saved people are saved because the Spirit lives in them, 2) saved people are in the Spirit/live in the Spirit, not in the Flesh, 3) saved people are being led around by the Spirit, not by the flesh, and 4) saved people are children of God and have an eternal inheritance with Christ because He lives inside of them. If it says anything about the flesh, it only reinforces that we are not there and do not want to be there.

Second, the paragraph from Galatians is not a warning to lost people that if they are damned if they sow to the flesh. It is a follow-on specifically to the statements a few paragraphs earlier that say: the only way to avoid the fruits of the flesh is to walk in the Spirit (Gal 5:16-18), the fruits of the flesh and the fruits of the Spirit are obvious (Gal 5:19-25), and "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit" (Gal 6:25).

Third, there is a legitimate question as to what people mean when they refer to "practicing sin". For instance, does a person who commits one sin every day of his life qualify as "practicing sin"? I would say he practices sin. But what if he commits only one sin a week (I heard a famous pastor say that he had gone as much as 3 days in a row without sinning)? I would say "yes" to that as well. So, it begs the question: "Who does not practice sin?" Typically, the answer is that he must repent and recommit. But then, the goal post is moved from "practicing sin" to "repentance and recommitment after sin". But then the question moves to the validity of their repentance and commitment because they break it every time.

 

[Abraham1st]

Where is your scripture for that?

What, about that theme being against satan, the prince of this world, and the judgement of this world, the lifting up of Christ, as the serpent was lifted up in the wilderness, biting the people so they lived, and the victory Christ did was against that serpent prince of this world, overcoming this world, and we should believe in Christ giving us the victory, over death shouldn't we, and believe the scriptures that Christ took part in flesh and blood that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is the devil, and deliver us from fear of death which all of our life we were subject to bondage. ( sin/the man of sin the devil.).



Numbers 21:8 And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.


Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[tdidymas]

Since we are on the same page concerning the eternal salvation of saved people, I would just offer the following for your consideration:

First, the paragraph from Romans is not a warning to people that they are damned if they live according to the flesh. It is a follow-on to the previous paragraph, hitting on the same themes that 1) saved people are saved because the Spirit lives in them, 2) saved people are in the Spirit/live in the Spirit, not in the Flesh, 3) saved people are being led around by the Spirit, not by the flesh, and 4) saved people are children of God and have an eternal inheritance with Christ because He lives inside of them. If it says anything about the flesh, it only reinforces that we are not there and do not want to be there.

Second, the paragraph from Galatians is not a warning to lost people that if they are damned if they sow to the flesh. It is a follow-on specifically to the statements a few paragraphs earlier that say: the only way to avoid the fruits of the flesh is to walk in the Spirit (Gal 5:16-18), the fruits of the flesh and the fruits of the Spirit are obvious (Gal 5:19-25), and "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit" (Gal 6:25).

Third, there is a legitimate question as to what people mean when they refer to "practicing sin". For instance, does a person who commits one sin every day of his life qualify as "practicing sin"? I would say he practices sin. But what if he commits only one sin a week (I heard a famous pastor say that he had gone as much as 3 days in a row without sinning)? I would say "yes" to that as well. So, it begs the question: "Who does not practice sin?" Typically, the answer is that he must repent and recommit. But then, the goal post is moved from "practicing sin" to "repentance and recommitment after sin". But then the question moves to the validity of their repentance and commitment because they break it every time.

I don't agree with your premise concerning the warnings, and here is the reason: since Jesus said "not everyone who calls Me 'Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven," that is just as much a warning of condemnation as sowing to the flesh. So then, I understand it that there are wheat and tares both in the churches, and the warnings are to make it clear to the unsaved that they better pay attention. Weren't you a tare once, as I also was? Thus, the power of God came upon us and made us fear God and pursue the path to loving God and others. The warnings were, and are, integral to the gospel message, as they reveal the true condition of the natural soul. It makes "ye must be born again" something to desperately pursue, albeit we discover finally after entering rest that it was a past event (what a relief!)

 

[Abraham1st]

Third, there is a legitimate question as to what people mean when they refer to "practicing sin". For instance, does a person who commits one sin every day of his life qualify as "practicing sin"? I would say he practices sin. But what if he commits only one sin a week (I heard a famous pastor say that he had gone as much as 3 days in a row without sinning)? I would say "yes" to that as well. So, it begs the question: "Who does not practice sin?" Typically, the answer is that he must repent and recommit. But then, the goal post is moved from "practicing sin" to "repentance and recommitment after sin". But then the question moves to the validity of their repentance and commitment because they break it every time.

Just to comment on your third thoughts. If we are to be saved, we are to be born again, generally with that implication, the old is dead, gone and buried, and all is new, we cant have it both ways, there is not a serving of sin and you have some righteousness also, we serve one master not two, completely and faithfully, to sin or to righteousness, so we do not serve righteousness and have some sin served also, its a poor excuse, against scripture, and the uprightness of the gospel, and the one without sin we are following/serving, hardly accepts us to be keeping His commandments by also not keeping them, that doesn't seem to make much sense to give us commandment and we are the same disobedient one such as Adam and all from Adam that al result in the wages of sin and death. So if the law of faith ( new covenant in Christs blood) is written in our heart, who by faith cant manage to keep it, and yet consider they have true faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, especially as the example He gave was how to love others by laying your life down for them as He did for us when we needed Him to. ( when dead in trespasses and sins) Another proof is all the example of the Apostle Paul, again it would be a null and voided example if it is failure, but the example is the amount of suffering endured for loves sake, to be a good sincere example to everyone, ( he said he had begotten us throuhg the gospel) and other peoples so called examples, that still fall short, are not called, are not justified, are not glorified.

 

[Guojing]

What, about that theme being against satan, the prince of this world, and the judgement of this world, the lifting up of Christ, as the serpent was lifted up in the wilderness, biting the people so they lived, and the victory Christ did was against that serpent prince of this world, overcoming this world, and we should believe in Christ giving us the victory, over death shouldn't we, and believe the scriptures that Christ took part in flesh and blood that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is the devil, and deliver us from fear of death which all of our life we were subject to bondage. ( sin/the man of sin the devil.).

If you believe Christ died for your sins and rose again for your justification, aka 1 Cor 15:1-4, you are saved today.

That is all that is sufficient and necessary today.

 

[Abraham1st]

If you believe Christ died for your sins and rose again for your justification, aka 1 Cor 15:1-4, you are saved today.

That is all that is sufficient and necessary today.

Yes and all the Gospel too, as all scripture is given for instruction in righteousness

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Just to comment on your third thoughts. If we are to be saved, we are to be born again, generally with that implication, the old is dead, gone and buried, and all is new, we cant have it both ways, there is not a serving of sin and you have some righteousness also, we serve one master not two, completely and faithfully, to sin or to righteousness, so we do not serve righteousness and have some sin served also, its a poor excuse, against scripture, and the uprightness of the gospel, and the one without sin we are following/serving, hardly accepts us to be keeping His commandments by also not keeping them, that doesn't seem to make much sense to give us commandment and we are the same disobedient one such as Adam and all from Adam that al result in the wages of sin and death. So if the law of faith ( new covenant in Christs blood) is written in our heart, who by faith cant manage to keep it, and yet consider they have true faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, especially as the example He gave was how to love others by laying your life down for them as He did for us when we needed Him to. ( when dead in trespasses and sins) Another proof is all the example of the Apostle Paul, again it would be a null and voided example if it is failure, but the example is the amount of suffering endured for loves sake, to be a good sincere example to everyone, ( he said he had begotten us throuhg the gospel) and other peoples so called examples, that still fall short, are not called, are not justified, are not glorified.

There is a lot here, lol. Where did you get the idea that He expects us to be keeping His commandments by not keeping them? That seems to be a doctrine everyone would oject to.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

I don't agree with your premise concerning the warnings, and here is the reason: since Jesus said "not everyone who calls Me 'Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven," that is just as much a warning of condemnation as sowing to the flesh. So then, I understand it that there are wheat and tares both in the churches, and the warnings are to make it clear to the unsaved that they better pay attention. Weren't you a tare once, as I also was? Thus, the power of God came upon us and made us fear God and pursue the path to loving God and others. The warnings were, and are, integral to the gospel message, as they reveal the true condition of the natural soul. It makes "ye must be born again" something to desperately pursue, albeit we discover finally after entering rest that it was a past event (what a relief!)

The same is true for the "not everyone..." Scripture. It's instruction to us more than a warning to them. So too with the tares. We can see that they are mixed in among Christians and they are different, but we are not to uproot them because it might do damage to the roots of the wheat. God will sort them out in the end. But I agree with you on the concept that we must do whatever we can to help the lost find their way to Christ. So I guess these verses we are discussing could be tools we use to jar them out of their comfort zone. But for the most part, flooding people with what the Bible says about the condemnation that they face for their sins does not usually produce much fruit. At least that's my experience. I have had better results comming alongside God as He draws them to Jesus for the forgiveness of their sins. I have only had one person ever tell me in person that they did not need Jesus' forgiveness because they have not done anything wrong.

And I noticed that you didn't want to address the meaning of "practicing sin".