OSAS - I was wrong...again

[eleos1954]

Rejecting Satan is not even necessary for salvation.

rejecting Satan is not an optional part of salvation ; it is a fundamental aspect of choosing Christ. the decision for or against God is the central theme of the war against Christ and Satan, and to accept God means to reject Satan. Rejecting Jesus' invitation is seen as yielding to Satan's influence.

 

[tdidymas]

I would say you are right depending on what you mean by "have a repentant attitude". If you mean that they have been joined to the Lord and are one spirit with Him (1 Cor 6:17), then OK.

That's the implication.

I should have read this more thoroughly before I responded above. You mean to say that a person is saved by faith if he obeys all Jesus' commandments. This POV could only be held in its pure form by someone who believes in sinless perfection. But if wattered down a little bit to allow for repeated instances of disobedience followed by repeated mea culpas, then belief in sinless perfection would not be necessary.

Sorry for the confusion, I didn't mean sinless perfection. My statement means that a person who is born of God is willing to repent from sin and follow all of what Jesus commands (whatever he finds those commands to be) - IOW, hearing His voice and following Him. It's an ongoing lifestyle. It doesn't mean sinless perfection or any such thing. Please reread the statement with this in mind.

This is the same straw man put forth and slain by many, but nobody holds this POV.

I don't agree with you on this. There are MANY apostates in the churches, many tares, many friends of the world and enemies of God. Jesus clearly said "by their fruit you shall know them." This doesn't make a person a "fruit inspector" as you say it. It makes us wary of anyone who claims to be a Christian and slanders you, tries to swindle you, or tries to enroll you into their sin. There are many false teachers, false prophets, false apostles, and false Christians.

Yes, it is true that God corrects His own. Doesn't the fact that we all have partaken of His correction (Heb 12:8) presume that we all sin?

Agreed, no one is perfect.

Again, you have added a phrase that is not in Scripture (i.e., "and backsliding continues until death"). Hebrews 12 does does not say that people who resist His correction until their deaths are not sons. It says that if they are not chastened then they are not sons. This something that only God and the person in question may know and it is invisible to fruit inspectors.

It's what it means. I know that many say "don't judge," but there are many warnings in scripture that if not heeded incur judgment. I think Paul is clear in saying, "if you live according to the flesh, you shall die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the flesh, you will live" in Rom. 8:13, and another like it in Gal. 6:8 "he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that he is talking about spiritual life and death. It is clear that "shall die" and "reap corruption" means lake of fire judgment. If we don't warn people who are practicing sin, how are we any better than the world who doesn't care about their eternal welfare? Of course, I'm talking about sins leading to death (1 Jn. 5:16).

It also takes correct application of Scripture.

When the writer of Hebrews said, "For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His" (Heb 4:10), he followed it up with this:

11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. (Heb 4:11–13)​

God can see everything going on inside a person's heart. Nothing is hidden from His sight. He knows when a person has rested from his own works and has put all his hope in Christ. And He knows when they have not done so. Since we must all give account of ourselves to Him, and since He sees everything going on inside our hearts, we each must be dilligent to enter His rest through ceasing from our own works and fully trusting in Christ for the salvation of our souls. This is what it means to believe in Jesus.

Yes, God knows those who are His. It doesn't mean we shrug our shoulders or wink at someone's sin and "hope" they'll make it. The same writer said, "See that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal."

 

[Guojing]

rejecting Satan is not an optional part of salvation ; it is a fundamental aspect of choosing Christ. the decision for or against God is the central theme of the war against Christ and Satan, and to accept God means to reject Satan. Rejecting Jesus' invitation is seen as yielding to Satan's influence.

Where is your scripture for that?

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

It's what it means. I know that many say "don't judge," but there are many warnings in scripture that if not heeded incur judgment. I think Paul is clear in saying, "if you live according to the flesh, you shall die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the flesh, you will live" in Rom. 8:13, and another like it in Gal. 6:8 "he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that he is talking about spiritual life and death. It is clear that "shall die" and "reap corruption" means lake of fire judgment. If we don't warn people who are practicing sin, how are we any better than the world who doesn't care about their eternal welfare? Of course, I'm talking about sins leading to death (1 Jn. 5:16).

You said OSAS is true for those who believe in Jesus and have a repentant attitude. Here you say there are things that lead to eternal death. One of those things is "living according to the flesh". Another of those things is "sowing to the flesh". You characterize them as "practicing sin". So, if you really do believe in eternal security, it must mean that you believe these are things only lost people can do (otherwise, if a saved person did them, he would lose his salvation and inherit the lake of fire). Am I correct about that?

 

[eleos1954]

Where is your scripture for that?

If one is able to overcome sin it is by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Recognize that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). Victory begins with the admission that you cannot achieve perfection on your own and need God's power.

Accept Jesus' sacrifice. Forgiveness and cleansing from past sins come through accepting Jesus as your Savior. He paid the penalty for sin by dying on the cross and exchanging your sinful record for His spotless record.

The Process of Overcoming Sin

1. Conviction of Sin:
   The Holy Spirit first brings the awareness of sin and wrongdoing to an individual's heart.
   
   
2. Repentance:
   This conviction prompts a desire to repent, which is a change of heart and a turning away from sin.
   
   
3. Forgiveness:
   Through repentance and accepting Jesus Christ, forgiveness is received.
   
   
4. Holy Spirit's Power:
   With forgiveness, the Holy Spirit's power to overcome sin and live a new, Christ-like life becomes available to the believer.

 

[Guojing]

If one is able to overcome sin it is by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Recognize that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). Victory begins with the admission that you cannot achieve perfection on your own and need God's power.

Accept Jesus' sacrifice. Forgiveness and cleansing from past sins come through accepting Jesus as your Savior. He paid the penalty for sin by dying on the cross and exchanging your sinful record for His spotless record.

The Process of Overcoming Sin

1. Conviction of Sin:
   The Holy Spirit first brings the awareness of sin and wrongdoing to an individual's heart.
   
   
2. Repentance:
   This conviction prompts a desire to repent, which is a change of heart and a turning away from sin.
   
   
3. Forgiveness:
   Through repentance and accepting Jesus Christ, forgiveness is received.
   
   
4. Holy Spirit's Power:
   With forgiveness, the Holy Spirit's power to overcome sin and live a new, Christ-like life becomes available to the believer.

You realized "renouncing Satan" is not in any of what you said?

Nuff said

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

It's what it means. I know that many say "don't judge," but there are many warnings in scripture that if not heeded incur judgment. I think Paul is clear in saying, "if you live according to the flesh, you shall die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the flesh, you will live" in Rom. 8:13, and another like it in Gal. 6:8 "he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that he is talking about spiritual life and death. It is clear that "shall die" and "reap corruption" means lake of fire judgment. If we don't warn people who are practicing sin, how are we any better than the world who doesn't care about their eternal welfare? Of course, I'm talking about sins leading to death (1 Jn. 5:16).

Since we are on the same page concerning the eternal salvation of saved people, I would just offer the following for your consideration:

First, the paragraph from Romans is not a warning to people that they are damned if they live according to the flesh. It is a follow-on to the previous paragraph, hitting on the same themes that 1) saved people are saved because the Spirit lives in them, 2) saved people are in the Spirit/live in the Spirit, not in the Flesh, 3) saved people are being led around by the Spirit, not by the flesh, and 4) saved people are children of God and have an eternal inheritance with Christ because He lives inside of them. If it says anything about the flesh, it only reinforces that we are not there and do not want to be there.

Second, the paragraph from Galatians is not a warning to lost people that if they are damned if they sow to the flesh. It is a follow-on specifically to the statements a few paragraphs earlier that say: the only way to avoid the fruits of the flesh is to walk in the Spirit (Gal 5:16-18), the fruits of the flesh and the fruits of the Spirit are obvious (Gal 5:19-25), and "If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit" (Gal 6:25).

Third, there is a legitimate question as to what people mean when they refer to "practicing sin". For instance, does a person who commits one sin every day of his life qualify as "practicing sin"? I would say he practices sin. But what if he commits only one sin a week (I heard a famous pastor say that he had gone as much as 3 days in a row without sinning)? I would say "yes" to that as well. So, it begs the question: "Who does not practice sin?" Typically, the answer is that he must repent and recommit. But then, the goal post is moved from "practicing sin" to "repentance and recommitment after sin". But then the question moves to the validity of their repentance and commitment because they break it every time.