OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

[Major1]

You are of course welcomed to your opinion.



Yes it does.

Wicked all destroyed at second coming.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

And of course Matthew 24 and 1 Thess 4 both say that after the tribulation the saints taken to heaven - raptures "the dead in Christ rise first then we who are alive and remain caught up in the air" -- all saints taken to heaven at the 2nd coming.

Leaving no one alive on earth for that 1000 years.
====================



No it does not.



Not true.




Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.



Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.

26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.


Jer 25:33
""Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.


Zeph 1:18
Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
3 The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled,



It is obviously a World Wide Calamity – world wide catastrophe

Isaiah 24
17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.
20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.

As I stated, I have to disagree with YOUR opinion. I DO NOT have any opinions at all. I just read what the Bible says. You do not seem to understand that the Revelation was several "PARENTHETIAL" verses and even chapters.

You however said...…………
"Wicked all destroyed at second coming."

However the Bible says in Rev. 20:8...…….
"And when the 1000 years are expired, Satan will be loosed out of his prison."

Then Rev. 20:9 says...………
"They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them."

IF the earth is desolate for 1000 years as you claim......then WHO are those people in the city of Jerusalem?????

Then you stated that...………………..
"And of course Matthew 24 and 1 Thess 4 both say that after the tribulation the saints taken to heaven - raptures "the dead in Christ rise first then we who are alive and remain caught up in the air" -- all saints taken to heaven at the 2nd coming."

AGAIN, that is not Biblically true. It may be what YOU think but not what the Bible says.

You, as a "Postribulation" believer consider the two passages as referring to the coming of Christ at the end of seven year period of God's judgments on the earth.

When it comes to scripture, simplicity always reigns supreme. The next time you question the pre-tribulation rapture with Matthew 24 as your evidence do yourself a favor and answer this question:

Did Jesus lie?

I will be brief – let’s examine verse 24:36 –
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only".

Did Jesus lie when he uttered these words?

Here is why I ask. If Matthew 24 is evidence of a post-tribulation rapture then Jesus clearly lied in 24:36. How do we know this? There are no less than 35 verses given prior in this chapter that clearly define the times of the end – including these particular scriptures that are trumpeted by supporters of the post-tribulation rapture more than any other:

Matthew 24:29-31 ........
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

To be clear – there are only two events in all of the Bible that Matthew 24:29-31 can be referring to – the rapture or the Second Coming. There are no other possibilities as these are the only two events that involve Christ leaving heaven for the earth. In one He does not step foot on the earth. In the other He does. It must be one or the other.

We know exactly the day that Second Coming will occur. It occurs exactly 1,260 days after the Abomination of Desolation. It occurs exactly 1,290 days after the Antichrist issues the decree to stop the Jewish sacrifices at the Temple.

If the events in Matthew 24:29-31 are the Second Coming then they occur exactly eight 360 day years and ten days after the rapture occurs. However, if they are not the Second Coming – but the rapture then Jesus lied. We know that He must have lied as the events described in 29-31 tie directly to other scriptures in the Bible that we know to be the Second Coming. Whereas, the verses of 24:36 tie directly to verses that we know relate directly to the rapture.
Matthew 24 and the Rapture+

Ezekiel 32 IS NOT referring to the end times or the 1000 year rule of Christ.
It was a prophesy against EGYPT! CONTEXT does not allow you to pluck it out and use it to verfify what you think.

Then you use Jeremiah 4 to do the same thing when in fact careful Bible study tells us that the verses you posted are verses each beginning with "I beheld,"
The prophet sees in vision the desolate condition of Judaea during the Babylonian captivity.

Then as for Zeph. 1:8..... This refers to the wanton destruction of the land, as well as the people, by the Babylonian army. It does not say the destruction was permanent.

Then Isaiah 24 certainly does tell us how awful the last days will be.
However, there is NOT ONE SINGLE word that says ALL LIFE WILL END for the 1000 years of Christs Kingdom on the earth. NOT ONE.

 

[Major1]

Limbo is not in the official doctrine, but it doesn't state that it's wrong to teach it. IOW, they leave it up to interpretation.

My parents sent me to a Catholic elementary school and they taught limbo. I looked it up again just to make sure before my last post, and the ruling bodies struggled with it and changed it to dead babies/children go to heaven in 2004. However, they did not make a ruling on teaching limbo (not the game where you bend down to go under a stick).

Interestingly, they never consulted the Bible, but went by church theology or tradition. In the vid I posted above St. Thomas Aquinas teaches limbo. Look at the documents Taylor Marshall uses in the article below.

http://taylormarshall.com/2007/10/do-we-believe-in-limbo.html

As for original sin, I'm going to stay quiet on that because I'm not a theologist nor have been keeping up with the modern Catholic Church. That is a huge deal.

I have to tell you my brother that your thought here is incorrect. "PURGATORY" is the official position of the RCC.

From paragraphs 1030-1032 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church...……..

"All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent."


As for the Bible, again, there are NO SCRIPTURES IN THE BIBLE that teach, or hint or suggest a place of purification called "limbo or Purgatory".

It is purely a doctrine from the minds of men and NOT the Word of God.

 

[Major1]

THEY are anti-Christs.
Of course they didn't belong! (1 John 2:19)

Have a good time in church!

Exactly my point! They were never saved to begin with so there was not any salvation to lose.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Babies cannot have baptism by desire.

I am not Catholic and do not claim to be an expert on Catholic doctrines. The Catechism of the Catholic Church does speak of the baptism of desire, but in the context of an individual who desires baptism but dies prior to being baptized. Some Catholics I know have applied this to babies, as well, saying that if the parents desired baptism for their baby but the baby died prior to baptism, the baby would be saved. The thinking is that no baby ever desires baptism, but it is the parents who desire if for them, as a sort of proxy. Thus, the parents are responsible for a baby's baptism, not the baby itself and if the baby were to die prior to baptism it would have been the parent's responsibility for the baby, not the baby itself.

 

[Major1]

We can sure test this M1.

You are of the OSAS belief. You consider yourself to be saved.

Now answer this question -

Can you, as a saved believer, murder people, lie every day to others, take your neighbor's wife and commit adultery with her every week, hate, deny, and even curse God, join a satanic cult and sacrifice babies, and continually steal from work, AND STILL BE SAVED AND TO TO HEAVEN?

A yes or no is all I want, no commentary please.

NO!

But it is not a YES or NO answer. The key to what you asked is the word KNOWN SIN.

YOUR words were...…"Lie every day"/ Commit adultery every week/ continuelly steal from work.

All of those are on-going KNOW sin full practices which proves that the person IS NOT SAVED.

1 John 3:9.....…..
"No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God."

Galatians 6:7-8...….
"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life."

Now here is a YES or NO question for you.

Since you gave been saved, have you EVER looked at a naked woman and thought,
"WOW, she is beautiful". LUST!

According to YOUR thinking YOU just lost your salvation!!!!!

Since you have been saved, when someone asked you how you were feeling you replied......OK, but in fact you were sick as dog. You just LIED.

According to your thinking YOU just lost your salvation.

Since you have been saved, have you said "God bless you" when someone sneezed?

According to your thinking you just took the Lords name in vaiv and you lost your salvation.

Since you have been saved, have you ever worked on Saturday the Sabbath?
Drove the car on vacation or to the store or taken your child to the hospital. YOU just broke the Sabbath and according to your thinking you lost your salvation.

Now if YOU want to think and live like that my friend......go right ahead and do so.

IMO, if you have never done any of those things I for one would say that you are not telling the truth and there is that salvation thing again.

IF you however have done any of them then you would be a hypocrite.

 

[Major1]

Major
Limbo is NOT the same as purgatory.
Limbo is a place where babies went that were not baptized and were still stained with original sin. This place does not exist and the CC never taught that it did.

Also, whoever wants to learn about the doctrine of the Catholic Church must learn it from the Catholic Church. The CC does not tell lies -- it will inform anyone that wishes to know its doctrine exactly what it is.

I believe I also mentioned the CCC, Catechism of the Catholic Church. It was released in 1992 or 1994 and is the OFFICIAL teaching of the CC.

The reason other sites should NOT be depended upon is due to prejudice by other denominations which do not know the doctrine.

For example, you said limbo and purgatory are the same.
They are NOT. This is incorrect information and is typical of the mistakes made.

Aren't they both pretty much a "holding place/situation" depending on whether you are a child or an adult?

 

[Major1]

Babies cannot have baptism by desire.

Correct!

But what does the Bible say need to be saved...……..

Romans 10:9.…….
"If you believe in your heart and confess WITH YOUR MOUTH and Jesus is the Christ, you will be saved".

 

[Major1]

Yes, I understand that and you stated it well, but Sola Scriptura isn't in the Bible either. What we learn as Christians is based on humans, too. I've heard Catholics Mother Theresa and Thomas Aquinas being ripped for their good works by Christians and that it doesn't help them get to heaven. That doesn't sound right to me, either. My example was of Richard Dawkins hypothetically recanting his atheism on his death bed and stating he believes in Jesus and prays for forgiveness. He is truly sorry and cries that he taught bad anti-theology and misled millions of people. His pretty young wife vouches that he did indeed do this and she thought he was sincere. Now, according to the Christian theology this is enough or is it? From Thomas Aquinas and the Bible,

"What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works?"

—James 2:14

Faith & Works

In this case, I would suspect that Richard Dawkins truly recanted and rip him to shreds for what he did in his life to believers and non-believers alike. He wouldn't die as a brother of mine even though he may be buried in Westminister Abbey. How can anybody claim that Dawkins will get into heaven? Maybe he will if he recanted his atheism, but the bottom line is that it doesn't seem fair.

The concept of purgatory seems like a fairer solution. A billion years of hard labor for Dawkins seems just. I know purgatory is part of official Catholic doctrine.

James 2:14 is referring to those who are saved and after salvation the proof of it is that they will do good works. Good works is the PRODUCT of salvation and it is not the vehicle of it.

The Trinity is not in the Bible either. Do you accept it as doctrine????

 

[BobRyan]

You said...…………
Major1 said: ↑
I believe personally and it is my opinion that animal sacrifices will resume in Israel after the Rapture but will end at Armageddon and will not be instituted in the New Heaven and New earth.
Then YOU said...……..
well that gets into eschatology -- the Bible says that at the rapture the wicked are destroyed and the saints taken to heaven "I looked and behold there was no man". An empty desolate earth for 1000 years. But that is another topic area.


That statement is completely in error and I disagree completely with it.

You are of course welcomed to your opinion.

The Bible does not say that the wicked are destroyed and the saints are taken to heaven.

Yes it does.

Wicked all destroyed at second coming.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.

20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

And of course Matthew 24 and 1 Thess 4 both say that after the tribulation the saints taken to heaven - raptures "the dead in Christ rise first then we who are alive and remain caught up in the air" -- all saints taken to heaven at the 2nd coming.

Leaving no one alive on earth for that 1000 years.
====================

YES, ible says and teaches in many places that the saved will be removed and calls them the church. But then the Bible says that there will be SEVEN (7) years of God's wrath, known from the Scriptures as the TRIBULATION PEROID.

No it does not.

The Bible DOES NOT in any way say that the earth will thenbe desolate for 1000 years!!!!!!It says just the OPPOSITE.

Not true.




Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.



Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.

26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.


Jer 25:33
""Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.


Zeph 1:18
Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
3 The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled,



It is obviously a World Wide Calamity – world wide catastrophe

Isaiah 24
17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.
20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.

As I stated, I have to disagree with YOUR opinion. I DO NOT have any opinions at all.

I have free will - you can claim whatever you wish.
I just read what the Bible says.

So I am going to stick with the Word of God on this one.

You however said...…………
"Wicked all destroyed at second coming."

Rev 19
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

2 Thess 1
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints

Rev 14
First the Saints
Reaping the Earth’s Harvest
14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.


Then the wicked
Reaping the Grapes of Wrath
17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.” 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.

 

[BobRyan]

Then Rev. 20:9 says...………
"They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them."

IF the earth is desolate for 1000 years as you claim......then WHO are those people in the city of Jerusalem?????

Rev 20-21
Vs 2-10 is the short summary
3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

The blessed and holy saints of God - are raised in the "FIRST" resurrection. at the start of the 1000 years ... (The dead in Christ rise first - 1 Thess 4).

The wicked are raised AFTER the 1000 years..

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever


=========================

Where did that city full of saints come from?

Rev 21

Rev 21 -- 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6 Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7 He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

9 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, “Come here, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”

The New Jerusalem
10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, ... 27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

"In My fathers house are many dwelling places - I go to prepare a place for you" John 14

 

[jamesbond007]

The thing is, according to Scripture, we all deserve eternal damnation. All of us. Yet, many will gladly point their fingers at someone else and say “that person can’t possibly be saved, he/she doesn’t deserve it. It’s not fair Lord!”

And these people actually think they deserve to be saved themselves. Scripture says otherwise.

This perspective of unfairness also reminds me of this parable Jesus told:

1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen. - Matthew 20:1-16

The above is the verse I was referring to. OTOH, because works is not required it becomes a teaching and criticism of someone who did works.

"If one could get to heaven by noble humanitarian acts, and if one could get to heaven by being devoutly religious, then it would be easy to conclude that Mother Teresa now dwells in heaven with the Lord. However, the Bible, contrary to Catholic teaching, is clear that good works and religiosity do not merit grace or earn salvation. God clarifies that we are only saved from eternal hell when we are born again through repentance and belief in Christ Jesus (see John 3:3; Matthew 4:17; Mark 1:14–15; Luke 13:3; 23:39–43; Romans 10:9–11; Acts 4:12). Perhaps the most terrifying passage in the Bible regarding people who must have seemed righteous to the world yet were rejected by God is Matthew 7:21–24, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’”"

Did Mother Teresa go to heaven?

So, repentant Richard Dawkins goes to heaven without criticism even though he did unholy works while Mother Teresa becomes an example for works alone does not get one into heaven. I go to a Christian church. Yesterday, we were asked if we would have ten people over to dinner. Others serve by being greeters and ushers. I'm sure there are good works in all churches. The teaching does not seem fair to me in this sense. Why not teach that Dawkins or even Darwin with a sincere deathbed confession gets into heaven by grace alone?

And then there is James.

"Faith and Works
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can a]">[a]that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, b]">[b]be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is c]">[c]dead, being by itself."

That's why I stated that it would seem fair to have a purgatory where sincere believers on their deathbeds can atone for their past sins and have time to cleanse themselves.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Exactly my point! They were never saved to begin with so there was not any salvation to lose.

I never said they were.
YOU brought up 1 John 2:19 re loss of salvation.
I never would because you're right, they were never saved.

 

[amariselle]

The above is the verse I was referring to. OTOH, because works is not required it becomes a teaching and criticism of someone who did works.

"If one could get to heaven by noble humanitarian acts, and if one could get to heaven by being devoutly religious, then it would be easy to conclude that Mother Teresa now dwells in heaven with the Lord. However, the Bible, contrary to Catholic teaching, is clear that good works and religiosity do not merit grace or earn salvation. God clarifies that we are only saved from eternal hell when we are born again through repentance and belief in Christ Jesus (see John 3:3; Matthew 4:17; Mark 1:14–15; Luke 13:3; 23:39–43; Romans 10:9–11; Acts 4:12). Perhaps the most terrifying passage in the Bible regarding people who must have seemed righteous to the world yet were rejected by God is Matthew 7:21–24, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’”"

Did Mother Teresa go to heaven?

So, repentant Richard Dawkins goes to heaven without criticism even though he did unholy works while Mother Teresa becomes an example for works alone does not get one into heaven. I go to a Christian church. Yesterday, we were asked if we would have ten people over to dinner. Others serve by being greeters and ushers. I'm sure there are good works in all churches. The teaching does not seem fair to me in this sense. Why not teach that Dawkins or even Darwin with a sincere deathbed confession gets into heaven by grace alone?

And then there is James.

"Faith and Works
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can a]">[a]that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, b]">[b]be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is c]">[c]dead, being by itself."

That's why I stated that it would seem fair to have a purgatory where sincere believers on their deathbeds can atone for their past sins and have time to cleanse themselves.

Salvation is the same for everyone, and God is not respecter of persons. We are only saved by grace, through faith and not of works (lest any man should boast). Salvation is a gift from God, not a reward for the good things we have done.

It may seem "fair" to us that a "good" person like Mother Theresa would without question be in heaven, while an "evil" person like Adolf Hitler would without question be in hell, but that is not how it works with God. Anyone who truly turns to Him in faith and believes the Gospel will be saved.

And should any of us get caught up in thinking that we or anyone else deserves salvation for living a "good" life, we have apparently forgotten the Scriptures. We are saved by the obedience of One.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Aren't they both pretty much a "holding place/situation" depending on whether you are a child or an adult?

Limbo and purgatory are not holding places.
Even though limbo does not exist, I'll explain it as if it does so you could understand the difference.

LIMBO (which does not really exist, re the CCC)
Babies that were never baptized went to this limbo place because they could not enter heaven due to the fact that God is holy and cannot be in the presence of sin and they never had original sin removed from their soul. It was a nice place and a pleasant place but it was not heaven. They based this idea on Reverlation 21:27. These babies were to remain there for eternity.

(Limbo does not exist and the CC depends on God's mercy for these babies.)

Even after the following was written, the church declares that unbaptized babies go to heaven...

CCC paragraph 1261
1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them," allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.


PURGATORY
It's believed that martyrs that died for their faith go immediately to heaven.

It's difficult that others could die with no sin on their soul, unless they had just walked out of confession.
So purgatory is for those who are destined for heaven but need to have these sins washed, purged, from their souls -- same reason, God cannot be in the presence of sin. No one will claim to know what purgatory is. Most priests believe it's a place where God can be seen but cannot be approached so the desire to be with God is great but is denied. It used to be believed that it was a place of torment, but this is no longer taught. The torment would be the separation from God. No one knows if it lasts 1 second or weeks or months.

There are indulgences that could cut down or eliminate time in purgatory for oneself or a loved one.

This is also bases on biblical ideas, for instance 1 Corinthians 3:12-15

CCC paragraphs 1030-1032

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin." From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.
(I post the above but am not in agreement with it)

 

[GodsGrace101]

Correct!

But what does the Bible say need to be saved...……..

Romans 10:9.…….
"If you believe in your heart and confess WITH YOUR MOUTH and Jesus is the Christ, you will be saved".

Sure. And this is why I don't really agree with baby baptism, but even some protestant churches practice this.

The baptism of desire if for an adult who WISHES to be baptized but dies before he can be; God in His goodness accepts the person as if they were baptized.
(a baby cannot wish to be baptized)


CCC 1258-1260
1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.
1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.
1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

(catechumen -- an adult who is studying to become Catholic)

 

[GodsGrace101]

I am not Catholic and do not claim to be an expert on Catholic doctrines. The Catechism of the Catholic Church does speak of the baptism of desire, but in the context of an individual who desires baptism but dies prior to being baptized. Some Catholics I know have applied this to babies, as well, saying that if the parents desired baptism for their baby but the baby died prior to baptism, the baby would be saved. The thinking is that no baby ever desires baptism, but it is the parents who desire if for them, as a sort of proxy. Thus, the parents are responsible for a baby's baptism, not the baby itself and if the baby were to die prior to baptism it would have been the parent's responsibility for the baby, not the baby itself.

What about a baby who's parents are not believers!

No. The parents have nothing to do with the soul of the baby.
The baby would be saved in any case --- he is an individual being.

It's as I explained above regarding original sin, limbo, etc.
Unbaptized babies go to heaven. God is a good and merciful and just God.

 

[GodsGrace101]

The above is the verse I was referring to. OTOH, because works is not required it becomes a teaching and criticism of someone who did works.

"If one could get to heaven by noble humanitarian acts, and if one could get to heaven by being devoutly religious, then it would be easy to conclude that Mother Teresa now dwells in heaven with the Lord. However, the Bible, contrary to Catholic teaching, is clear that good works and religiosity do not merit grace or earn salvation. God clarifies that we are only saved from eternal hell when we are born again through repentance and belief in Christ Jesus (see John 3:3; Matthew 4:17; Mark 1:14–15; Luke 13:3; 23:39–43; Romans 10:9–11; Acts 4:12). Perhaps the most terrifying passage in the Bible regarding people who must have seemed righteous to the world yet were rejected by God is Matthew 7:21–24, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’”"

Did Mother Teresa go to heaven?

So, repentant Richard Dawkins goes to heaven without criticism even though he did unholy works while Mother Teresa becomes an example for works alone does not get one into heaven. I go to a Christian church. Yesterday, we were asked if we would have ten people over to dinner. Others serve by being greeters and ushers. I'm sure there are good works in all churches. The teaching does not seem fair to me in this sense. Why not teach that Dawkins or even Darwin with a sincere deathbed confession gets into heaven by grace alone?

And then there is James.

"Faith and Works
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can a]">[a]that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, b]">[b]be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is c]">[c]dead, being by itself."

That's why I stated that it would seem fair to have a purgatory where sincere believers on their deathbeds can atone for their past sins and have time to cleanse themselves.

Regarding your last paragraph....I've had this conversation with a couple of priests.

This is the question:
Is Jesus enough to save us?
Or do we need to do penance and go to purgatory?

 

[Major1]

Sure. And this is why I don't really agree with baby baptism, but even some protestant churches practice this.

The baptism of desire if for an adult who WISHES to be baptized but dies before he can be; God in His goodness accepts the person as if they were baptized.
(a baby cannot wish to be baptized)


CCC 1258-1260
1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.
1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.
1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

(catechumen -- an adult who is studying to become Catholic)

Which Protestant denomination would that be????

Of course, since the Bible does NOT teach salvation through water baptism, it really does not matter if the person wants to or not. He can of course desire to be baptized and actually every one who accepts the Lord Jesus should have that desire, but whether he does or does not has nothing to do with his salvation.

Salvation is actually a "state of mind" and not a position of the body being dry or wet.

 

[Major1]

What about a baby who's parents are not believers!

No. The parents have nothing to do with the soul of the baby.
The baby would be saved in any case --- he is an individual being.

It's as I explained above regarding original sin, limbo, etc.
Unbaptized babies go to heaven. God is a good and merciful and just God.

Agreed!

My mind will not allow me to think that our loving God would not take all babies to heaven.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Salvation is the same for everyone, and God is not respecter of persons. We are only saved by grace, through faith and not of works (lest any man should boast). Salvation is a gift from God, not a reward for the good things we have done.

It may seem "fair" to us that a "good" person like Mother Theresa would without question be in heaven, while an "evil" person like Adolf Hitler would without question be in hell, but that is not how it works with God. Anyone who truly turns to Him in faith and believes the Gospel will be saved.

And should any of us get caught up in thinking that we or anyone else deserves salvation for living a "good" life, we have apparently forgotten the Scriptures. We are saved by the obedience of One.

I agree, I 'd like to add this...

It's more LIKELY that a person that does good deeds and is kind hearted will come to salvation because they may be more inclined to accept God's salvation.

And the opposite is also true. I believe it would be difficult for someone like Hitler to suddenly turn from his evil ways. it would be less likely for him to turn to God.

Richard Dawkin, OTOH, was probably a moral person who just couldn't believe in God. So it might have been easier for him.