OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

[redleghunter]

Oh, but I'm afraid it does, my fellow brother in Christ. The semi-Pelagian conception of OSAS is false, but the Calvinistic doctrine of perseverance of the saints/eternal security is true.

John 6:37-40: All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 10:28-30: And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.


I know what you're thinking. "Oh, maybe God won't let go of you, but you can still let go of God." But, that doesn't make sense. God is holding onto you with His hand, and that means that He will not let you go even if you want to, even if you want to loosen His grip, you can't loosen His omnipotent grip.

Deuteronomy 32:39: ‘Now see that I, even I, am He,
and there is no God besides Me;
I kill and I make alive;
I wound and I heal;
Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.

Let me add Romans 8:16 to the list above.

Romans 8: NASB
15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.



The most assuring or frightening verse in the NT.

I think a lot of theology out there says one cannot have assurance because those promoting it don't know what it is to be adopted children of God who have the Holy Spirit testify to our spirit. You can usually tell by the answers you get.

 

[redleghunter]

Hmmm, did it have to do with not believing anymore? What's the difference between Israel's unbelief and Christian's unbelief today?

What's the difference? One can be ethically Hebrew but not spiritually. Israel was chosen to be God's set apart nation.

On the other hand "unbelief" is an oxymoron in Christian language. No one who rejects Christ is a Christian. He never knew them.

 

[EmSw]

What's the difference? One can be ethically Hebrew but not spiritually. Israel was chosen to be God's set apart nation.

On the other hand "unbelief" is an oxymoron in Christian language. No one who rejects Christ is a Christian. He never knew them.

What you miss is that were once the natural branch in the root, that is, saved. Then they were cut off from the root, that is, unsaved.

 

[redleghunter]

What you miss is that were once the natural branch in the root, that is, saved. Then they were cut off from the root, that is, unsaved.

Not all of them. A Jew wrote what you quoted.

 

[EmSw]

Not all of them. A Jew wrote what you quoted.

The ones cut off and severed were.

 

[amariselle]

Here's what you said - 'What exactly do you think is meant by “salvation” and “eternal life”? That God still isn’t going to “spare” us after all? That He didn’t mean what He said? That Jesus somehow failed?'

Why did you bring up that 'Jesus somehow failed'? I have no doubt, it's not Jesus who failed, but rather, people who fail. If they lose salvation, it's not Jesus' fault. If they aren't spared, Jesus did not fail. He gave many, many words on eternal life, not just a few that are thrown around in favor of eternal security.

I see you have again missed the point. Oh well.

The main one I see that people have a hard time with is, 'if you want to enter life, keep the commandments'. I have heard every excuse under the sun, as to what this means and why it's not for us today.

Who exactly was Jesus speaking to in Matthew 19:16-26 and what was the point He was making?

If some of these eternal security people don't make it to Heaven, they can't blame Jesus, for He gave us the truth to live by. They only have themselves to blame, not that Jesus failed.

I never said Jesus failed. You have missed the point of those questions.

No one is “making it to heaven” on their own merit, works, obedience to the Law, or “righteousness.”

And Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

Anyone who says that we need to add our works to be saved or stay saved is really saying that what Christ did was not enough.

People need to understand that.

 

[amariselle]

Hmmm, did it have to do with not believing anymore?

“Not believing anymore”? No. They never believed. Those who believe are not “cut off”, they are saved and secure. (Sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.)

What's the difference between Israel's unbelief and Christian's unbelief today?

There are no “unbelieving Christians”. Christians are believers who have been saved and born again.

Romans 11
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

A lot here, don't you agree? Not only were they not spared, that is, cut off, but it also says God is able to graft them in again, if they do not abide in unbelief.

Exactly, how do you read works into that? It’s all about believing.

Isn't this, saved, unsaved, and saved again?

Nope. It’s about those Jews who never believed (rejected their Messiah) being “cut off” and how if they came to believe, they would be “grafted back in.”

It’s all about faith and not even a little bit about works or behaving well enough to merit salvation. (Which is impossible).

 

[redleghunter]

The ones cut off and severed were.

The same chapter 11 of Romans verse 26 says thus:

and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."

So who is cut off if all Israel will be saved?

 

[Bobber]

Romans 8: NASB
15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

The most assuring or frightening verse in the NT.

I think a lot of theology out there says one cannot have assurance because those promoting it don't know what it is to be adopted children of God who have the Holy Spirit testify to our spirit. You can usually tell by the answers you get.

Here's something you fail to consider. Paul is talking in Romans 8 with the assumption that his readers have indeed kept their relationship with God close. They pray to God, they worship God and do what it takes to be in his will. We're called to be strong in the Lord and in the power of his might. Do all Christians who start off right maintain this? If they do they do have God witnessing in their spirits yes all the time that they're children of God BUT not all Christians stay in strong fellowship with the Lord.

That comes with developing a relationship with God and one does that each day. If one misses a day of say of prayer and praise to God does that mean they've become cast off unsaved. No. I will say this though if one develops a continue pattern from weeks to months and going into years and all they're doing is believing beliefs about God and not really in spiritual fellowship....well that's not a good place to be. Would I be saying they've become unsaved? Only God is the judge. Fact is though Matt 7:21-23 provides a sober warning I'd hope we all take seriously.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matt 7:23

Quite frankly I don't see anything there which indicates these individuals weren't genuinely at one time in fellowship with the Lord and were born again. People can go from truly having the witness in their spirit that they're born again to neglecting God, doing their own thing and not really feeling God's witness any more about anything and yet they've now put their faith in scripture declarations about Salvation and not having with it true fellowship, and yes a true fellowship they once did have. OSAS I consider is really a scary thing for if people aren't careful they never do the checklist to ensure they're still in a fellowship with God. They may be backslid and not even know it. If one is in this state there still is hope....God says draw near to God and he will draw near to you. James 4:8 Such is the truth we read about in the story of the Prodigal son. Luke 15

And in Revelation 3:2-4

Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. 4Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Revelation 3 :2-4

 

[redleghunter]

Here's something you fail to consider. Paul is talking in Romans 8 with the assumption that his readers have indeed kept their relationship with God close. They pray to God, they worship God and do what it takes to be in his will. We're called to be strong in the Lord and in the power of his might. Do all Christians who start off right maintain this? If they do they do have God witnessing in their spirits yes all the time that they're children of God BUT not all Christians stay in strong fellowship with the Lord.

That comes with developing a relationship with God and one does that each day. If one misses a day of say of prayer and praise to God does that mean they've become cast off unsaved. No. I will say this though if one develops a continue pattern from weeks to months and going into years and all they're doing is believing beliefs about God and not really in spiritual fellowship....well that's not a good place to be. Would I be saying they've become unsaved? Only God is the judge. Fact is though Matt 7:21-23 provides a sober warning I'd hope we all take seriously.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matt 7:23

Quite frankly I don't see anything there which indicates these individuals weren't genuinely at one time in fellowship with the Lord and were born again. People can go from truly having the witness in their spirit that they're born again to neglecting God, doing their own thing and not really feeling God's witness any more about anything and yet they've now put their faith in scripture declarations about Salvation and not having with it true fellowship, and yes a true fellowship they once did have. OSAS I consider is really a scary thing for if people aren't careful they never do the checklist to ensure they're still in a fellowship with God. They may be backslid and not even know it. If one is in this state there still is hope....God says draw near to God and he will draw near to you. James 4:8 Such is the truth we read about in the story of the Prodigal son. Luke 15

And in Revelation 3:2-4

Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. 4Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. 5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Revelation 3 :2-4

What part of "The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God," is not clear?

The companion passage would be:

Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test! (2 Corinthians 13:5)

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matt 7:23

Don't know how this passage applies to the subject. Jesus taught there would be wheat and tares among us. Do you truly think the Holy Spirit would testify to the spirit of one who is not elect?

 

[redleghunter]

Quite frankly I don't see anything there which indicates these individuals weren't genuinely at one time in fellowship with the Lord and were born again.

Speculation. However the parable of the soils truly show us the difference between general call and effectual call. The difference between acknowledgment of God's plan and saving faith.

People can go from truly having the witness in their spirit that they're born again to neglecting God, doing their own thing and not really feeling God's witness any more about anything and yet they've now put their faith in scripture declarations about Salvation and not having with it true fellowship, and yes a true fellowship they once did have.

Being born again is not a Scripture declaration. This may be the problem you are facing. We cannot have fellowship with God without being born again.

OSAS I consider is really a scary thing for if people aren't careful they never do the checklist to ensure they're still in a fellowship with God. They may be backslid and not even know it. If one is in this state there still is hope....God says draw near to God and he will draw near to you. James 4:8 Such is the truth we read about in the story of the Prodigal son. Luke 15

Considering OSAS is not a theological term embraced by any of the Reformers, but usually something used by semi-Pelagians to describe eternal security negatively.

Now usually, when people use the term OSAS it goes hand in hand with "license to sin." The question then becomes can someone who believes they have license to sin be born of the Spirit? Which brings us back to Romans 8:16 and 2 Corinthians 13:5.

Salvation is more than saying a prayer or “making a decision” for Christ. Salvation is a sovereign act of God whereby an unregenerate sinner is washed, renewed, and born again by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3; Titus 3:5). When salvation occurs, God gives the forgiven sinner a new heart and puts a new spirit within him (Ezekiel 36:26). The Spirit will cause the saved person to walk in obedience to God’s Word (Ezekiel 36:26–27; James 2:26).

 

[redleghunter]

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matt 7:23

After further review I noticed something very interesting of those rejected by Christ:

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matt 7:23

Notice the bolded...The ones crying out focus on what they did. They were pleading on their works, when they should attribute all to Christ as His work.

When of course we should be casting our crowns before the King.

Revelation 4:
9And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever, 10the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11“Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created.”

 

[Paulus59]

I like to believe in OSAS. I'm Christian born again, but I did backslide and I have sinned terribly over many years. I don't want to lose Christ and regret what I have done and prayed for forgiveness & mercy, but there is always that little voice telling me I have lost my salvation. I just don't know any more.

 

[Inkfingers]

The seed of faith and salvation is scattered wide, and planted in many soils, but in some it does not properly grow and so it dies off.

Matthew 13:3-8

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

David, 'coming to Christ' is no different than 'coming to anybody'. No matter if you are called or not, you must be willing to 'come'. Then you must get off your back side and actually go. It's not a passive proposition.

Once you 'come to Him', then you must follow Him.

I totally agree that we must follow Him.I do.I adhere to His latest marching orders, which is to follow Paul.I follow Paul by believing his Gospel thAt saves if merely believed.It can be found in 1cor15:1-4....add to that Gospel with ANYTHING and you are “accursed”..... serious stuff that “ rightly dividing “ thingy.

 

[Blood Bought 1953]

Here's what you said - 'What exactly do you think is meant by “salvation” and “eternal life”? That God still isn’t going to “spare” us after all? That He didn’t mean what He said? That Jesus somehow failed?'

Why did you bring up that 'Jesus somehow failed'? I have no doubt, it's not Jesus who failed, but rather, people who fail. If they lose salvation, it's not Jesus' fault. If they aren't spared, Jesus did not fail. He gave many, many words on eternal life, not just a few that are thrown around in favor of eternal security.

The main one I see that people have a hard time with is, 'if you want to enter life, keep the commandments'. I have heard every excuse under the sun, as to what this means and why it's not for us today.

If some of these eternal security people don't make it to Heaven, they can't blame Jesus, for He gave us the truth to live by. They only have themselves to blame, not that Jesus failed.

Paul’s Gospel ( that’s right- look it up) promises to save if simply believed. If Paul said it— Jesus said it.I don’t think Jesus is a liar.Therefore I believe 1cor15:1-4.I hope it is not too late when you discover OSAS is the “ Narrow Gate”
Faith plus nothing.

 

[InterestedApologist]

Questions to the OP:

1. What sins are serious enough to cause a loss of salvation?
2. If one of those salvation nullifying sins is committed and salvation lost, can salvation ever be re-obtained?
3. Is man able to earn his salvation?
4. If man is able to earn his salvation, why the need for Jesus’ sacrifice?
5. If man cannot earn his own salvation, and God provides it based on faith, how can one lose it based on works?

 

[Bobber]

What part of "The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God," is not clear?

I've already addressed that and most certainly agree....The Spirit himself testifies with our spirits that we are the children of God. Such does not mean however that there can't be some or many who walk away from the Lord who no longer really feel that witness. You would wrongly assert that somebody who doesn't make heaven their home never had such a witness at any time. I'd contend Hebrews 6 :4 declares otherwise.

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace Hebrews 6:4

If ones had tasted of the heavenly gift who is Christ they were saved. It even adds they shared in the Holy Spirit BUT....they fell away and could not be brought back to repentance. They were Hebrew Christians and if they went back to Judaism there'd be no way they could come back to repentance for they turned against the only way of Salvation Christ. I say this for the reason if someone feels under condemnation not thinking they could come back to God...they can but it's got to be through Christ and through his precious blood.

Do you truly think the Holy Spirit would testify to the spirit of one who is not elect?

The elect is a term of the bigger picture of things God sees outside time. I'd say God still responds IN TIME with the way things are in the present moment so yes I would say God would testify to one's spirit that they're saved and a child of God although they could leave that Salvation. God doesn't force someone to stay in fellowship with himself.

 

[GodsGrace101]

Not "you" you. They you. We.

LOL
In the rules it says not to use "you".
What are we supposed to use???
In every other language there is a singular you and a plural you.
tu
voi

usted
vosotros

English:
you
you !!

Yeah. We should have another word.

How's about Y'ALL?!

 

[GodsGrace101]

Hi GG, we Christians (whether Arminian or Calvinist) are instructed to test ourselves to make certain that we are in the faith .. e.g. 2 Corinthians 13:5.

1. How do we "test" ourselves (or others)? IOW, what are some of the proofs that we look for to make certain that we are truly saved?

2. Is this test meant for Arminians or Calvinists or both? (and if not for both, why not?)​

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

2 Corinthians 13
5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?​

.

Well, SW, If I had to worry about being saved, or take a test,
or prove it somehow, I'd say I'm probably not saved.

For I know in Whom I have trusted...