OSAS does not survive the "sola scriptura" test. Now what?

Blood Bought 1953

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Let's see how men are judged.

1 Kings 8:39
Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men)

Job 34:11
For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways.

Psalm 28:4
Give them according to their deeds, and according to the wickedness of their endeavours: give them after the work of their hands; render to them their desert.

Isaiah 59:18
According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.

Proverbs 24:12
If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?

Jeremiah 17:10
I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Jeremiah 32:19
Great in counsel, and mighty in work: for thine eyes are open upon all the ways of the sons of men: to give every one according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings:

Ezekiel 7:3
Now is the end come upon thee, and I will send mine anger upon thee, and will judge thee according to thy ways, and will recompense upon thee all thine abominations.

Ezekiel 7:9
And mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: I will recompense thee according to thy ways and thine abominations that are in the midst of thee; and ye shall know that I am the Lord that smiteth.

Ezekiel 18:30
Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

Ezekiel 24:14
I the Lord have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent; according to thy ways, and according to thy doings, shall they judge thee, saith the Lord God.

Hosea 12:2
The Lord hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him.

Zechariah 1:6
But my words and my statutes, which I commanded my servants the prophets, did they not take hold of your fathers? and they returned and said, Like as the Lord of hosts thought to do unto us, according to our ways, and according to our doings, so hath he dealt with us.

Jeremiah 25:14
For many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of them also: and I will recompense them according to their deeds, and according to the works of their own hands.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Romans 2:6
Who will render to every man according to his deeds: (if you want the rest, I will gladly provide it upon request).

Revelation 2:23
And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

How many verses do you need to convince you that it is according to man's deeds, works, actions, and doings? Even Paul said God will render to EVERY man according to his deeds. Why would I be wise to consult about Paul's gospel? I have so many passages to believe about my deeds, actions, and works.

Some rough stuff there....99% Old Testament Law....sure glad I am not under Law....that Law shows me the terrible judgement that would certainly be my due if it were not for the Shed Blood Of Christ.....rightful judgement for me is an eternity in Hell. Praise be to my Savior—- He took the judgement I deserved and in turn gave me the righteousness that He deserved.....what a deal ! What a Savior ! I know you don’t understand it. You are in my prayers...
 
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jamesbond007

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Actually, isn't salvation itself a "state of mind"?

ALL human beings have ETERNAL LIFE. The Scriptures tell us that there is a REAL place called Heaven and a REAL place called Hell. We will spent eternity in one of those two places.

Now where we spent eternity is our choice based on who we believe Jesus is and what He did. That is called FAITH and it is a STATE OF MIND.

Some call this our "HEART" but it is actually the MIND.

I'm Christian, and to tell you the truth, I've been struggling with what is the one truth? Are the Christians right about heaven and hell or the Catholic version the correct one? Each has their strengths and weaknesses. The Christian pov is simple and direct. It tells of a narrow gate that some will enter while a majority enter the wider gate into hell. That seems true to me. There will be those who will not believe or do not hold firm to their faith. Did Peter not deny Jesus three times? The majority will not fit through the narrow gate. The weakness of this view is that Jesus is like ourselves. He would be a just and fair judge. He would let the punishment fit the crime. It could be circumstances that a person did not know Jesus. How can these people end up in hell? The hell would have to have different levels for the punishment to fit the crimes, in this case, ignorance. Then, there are those who could be like us, believers that we won't deny Jesus like Peter. Yet, when the time comes, we won't be ready to die for our faith. That's why I believe that it's the heart and not the mind. The mind can be swayed, but love in our hearts for Jesus, just like that towards a close loved one, is harder to dissuade and will remain firm.
 
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GodsGrace101

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I do not know about you, but I for one am always amazed on these forums at how those who do not agree with the Scriptures always "Put words in the mouths" of those who actually believe what the Scriptures do say.
I posted about 4 or 5 scriptures to which you never even replied.
So how do you make the above statement???
I never state my own opinion, but back what I say up with verses.

Here, I'll post them again in case you care to answer to them.
They show how our salvation can be forfeited by us...

Mathew 7:23
Mathew 7:24
John 14:15
James 1:22
 
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GodsGrace101

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Is faith a work? Does a man earn the cheque for a million dollars he has inherited from his recently-deceased rich uncle? No. He simply believes the money is his and receives it. This is true of the gift of salvation one may receive from God, too.

And from where does faith to believe come? God. (Romans 12:3) Our salvation is ultimately God's doing, not ours; it depends upon His work, not ours (John 6:44).
Sure an inheritance is earned...try being a nasty nephew and see what the rich uncle leaves you. He won't leave you much, but will leave a lot to the nephew he loves. God is the same. Those that go to God following God's conditions will be loved by God. And even though God loves ALL His creation, those that do not meet His conditions will be lost. He is a just God.

As to Romans 12:3
God offers His grace to all, it is our responsibility to answer to it. We are saved BY GRACE, THROUGH FAITH.
The grace is God's, the faith is ours. WE need the faith and it must be given of our own free will. Ephesians says our salvation is not by our WORKS, verse 9, but it must necessarily be by our faith since it is faith that saves us.
Ephesians 1:13 AFTER listening to the message of truth and having believed...we were sealed with Him.

Galatians 5:5 Through the spirit, BY FAITH, our waiting for our hope of righteousness.

Galatians 2:16 We are justified BY FAITH in Christ Jesus.

As to John 6:44

God has revealed Himself to all the world.
He revealed Himself to ALL of Israel, not just some persons.
Jeremiah 31:3

He has revealed Himself to the world from the beginning of time.
Romans 1:19-20
John 5:17 states that both the Father and Jesus work. For what? To save mankind.
John 3:16

God is not a respecter of persons and wishes all to be saved.
Romans 2:11
Acts 10:34
1 Timothy 2:4

Here's the verse you quoted with a bit of surrounding context:

Romans 11:19-23
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

The surrounding text does not help your cause.
Read verse 22:

22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

What do you think will happen if you DO NOT continue in His goodness?

You too, will be cut off. (just like the unbelieving Jews)

Since, as I've explained in earlier posts, Scripture makes it very clear that a genuinely born-again person cannot lose their salvation, I must interpret what Paul is saying here in the light of these other verses. What, then, does "cut off" mean for the genuinely born-again Gentile believer? Well, if I've purchased medication at the behest of my doctor for the treatment of, say, pneumonia and I come to believe that the medication won't help and refuse to take it, does the medication cease to be mine? No. I am cut off by my unbelief from its medicinal benefit, but the medicine is still mine. In the same way, salvation may be emptied of most of its spiritual benefit and the believer made useless to God by the believer's unbelief, but they may still be in possession of their membership in God's family.
Stop taking your medicine and the pneumonia will kill you.

Is Israel, the nation of God's Chosen People, utterly forsaken by God in its unbelief? No. As Paul indicates in Roman 11, God is still acting toward His Chosen People in a special way. He has not abandoned them as His People but will, in the end, save the nation. Why would God do this? Why, since there is a New Covenant for all people in Christ, has He not dissolved all relationship with the nation with which He had made the Old Covenant? Because God is faithful; He finishes what He starts. And this is as true for His children adopted in Christ, as it is for the Jews. God is faithful even when we are not. He does not abandon us when we drift from Him.
No sir. This is not correct.
Romans 9 to 11 is speaking about the nation of Israel and the Jews. Do not confuse this with the rest of the book which also speaks about INDIVIDUAL salvation.

God never abandons us, but WE abandon HIM. If we drift from Him we are most definitely in danger of losing our salvation.
If we DENY HIM, He will DENY us.
Mathew 10:33
2 Timothy 2:12
( and I sure hope you know what it means that God is faithful to HIMSELF in verse 13)


Philippians 1:6
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;
1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.


In light of these things, whatever "cutting off" my unbelief may cause, it does not, I believe, extend to my salvation.
The above verses are absolutely right.
As long as we remain in Christ and ALLOW him to work, the above will be accomplished.

How can He work, however, if we LEAVE HIM??
Have we lost our free will? Will He force us to be saved and go to heaven even if we don't want to?
Only those who WANT to be in heaven will be there.
Only those who WANT to be in the other place will be there.

Receiving a knowledge of the truth does not equate to salvation. I know of many people who have received a knowledge of the Gospel and who readily acknowledge God exists but who have done so only on an intellectual level. Their knowledge and agreement with these things has not reached their heart and so, despite what they may know, they are not actually saved.
I can't discuss this since I don't know the persons heart.
It depends on what we mean by knowledge. Biblically knowledge means in the heart, but I know what you mean.
Maybe this will lead them to God? We can't make this determination --- only God can.

Christ's words here speak to the uselessness of those who have lost their "saltiness." He does not indicate that he means the "un-salty" are saved folk who have become unsaved. This you have read into his words.
You're referring to Mathew 5:13

JESUS says:
New American Standard Bible
"You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men."

I believe the above really needs no explanation...
YOU refers to those who are the salt of the earth... US
IF we lose our taste it means we are no longer the saved.
We become GOOD FOR NOTHING and are THROWN OUT and TRAMPLED underfoot.

Doesn't sound like heaven to me!


No, it is clear to those with the presupposition of a saved-and-lost doctrine. And an open mind has nothing to do with it. You have a very closed mind to my perspective. How, then, are you able to see what you do if an open mind is so necessary?
Ditto.


Very little - except that he could always claim to be a son to his father.
You could "claim" to be a son of the Father all you want to...
But if you gain nothing from it, what good does it do??
The Prodigal Son was a son to his father even while he was starving to death. Just being called son means nothing --- we must be active sons and live with the Father, not away from Him.

??? The Prodigal Son got a party at the end of the parable! And even those believers whose works are entirely burned up will still enter heaven "though as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:14)
Sure he got a party!
Luke 15:7

As to 1 Corinthians 3:14, I'm willing to discuss it...
but does it really mean THE SINNER??
Or does it mean the teachers who are building on a foundaiton??
See verse 9

This is something you're reading into the parable. The parable is really focused, not on the Prodigal, but upon the father. To those hearing the parable for the first time, the father would have stuck out like a sore thumb. His conduct toward his son would have been thought scandalous to Christ's first-century audience. The parable, then, isn't aimed at teaching about salvation, primarily, but about the faithful, gracious, patient, and forgiving character of God (demonstrated in the attitude and behaviour of the Prodigal's father).

It seems to me that when you use the word "apparently," what you really mean is "apparently to those who are seeing the parable through a saved-and-lost doctrinal filter." As I've already explained in other posts, the son was dead to his father in terms of their fellowship with each other. This is plainly evident in the parable itself.
I agree that the parable is about the Father.
It's about how the Father is always willing to take us back, no matter what. He is always waiting with open arms.
However, dead biblically speaking, means death spiritually.
The parable plainly says that the son was DEAD and now he is ALIVE again. He was LOST and now is FOUND.

What could be more clear? When we were LOST, we were spiritually lost, when we became FOUND, we became saved.


No where in the passage from John 3 does it say what you have here. And your added qualification makes your salvation entirely dependent upon you. Essentially, you are promoting works-salvation which Scripture explicitly contradicts. (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5; Romans 9:11, etc.)
I'm sorry, I don't know to which verse you're referring.
Maybe John 3:16?
And I'm not sure which added qualification you're speaking of.

As to works-salvation...
There is no such concept that we are saved by works.
I do not believe in works salvation.
What I do believe is that AFTER salvation, we owe our works to God.
Ephesians 2:10
John 14:15

I agree with Titus 3:5.
Romans 9:11 would have to be discussed since it refers to God's dealing with Israel, as you well know.
 
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EmSw

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Some rough stuff there....99% Old Testament Law....sure glad I am not under Law....that Law shows me the terrible judgement that would certainly be my due if it were not for the Shed Blood Of Christ.....rightful judgement for me is an eternity in Hell. Praise be to my Savior—- He took the judgement I deserved and in turn gave me the righteousness that He deserved.....what a deal ! What a Savior ! I know you don’t understand it. You are in my prayers...

It's rough only for the man whose deeds are evil. It's 100% word of God. Most of the passages were from the prophets, not the law. Why do you suppose to be exempt? Every man who has ever lived will face judgment concerning his way of life.

Jesus was never, nor will He ever be judged. The judge does not judge Himself. He did not take your judgment.

What you don't understand is that judgment is for the good and evil, that is, for every man. Live a life of evil and the judgment will be indignation and wrath; live a life of good and the judgment will be eternal life. and be recompensed according to our deeds.

Romans 2
6 Who will render to EVERY MAN according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:


Whether you want to believe it or not, judgment will be for every man. No one will stand in your stead and take the judgment you deserve. Don't deceive yourself and think you can sow evil and reap good.

Galatians 6
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
 
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GodsGrace101

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Actually we only have two.
I know.
But they seem to cover all the others...although Jesus did leave us with specific things to do -- it's good that love be explained.

But you still refuse to answer to my posts.
When someone posts a verse, I always reply to it.

I don't understand why everyone doesn't do this.
Here they are again:

Mathew 7:23
Mathew 7:24
John 14:15
James 1:22
 
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GodsGrace101

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I don't have the answer to that. This may be wrong, but I still, at times, look to our original parents and ask if I had what they had and were in their shoes, how long would I have lasted? For some reason, I think they lasted less than a week before they fell. This may sound narcissistic, but would think I'd last around two years before being tricked by Satan or maybe avoid disobeying God forever, i.e. hold firm to his Word.

IDK. You ask a good question. Does it mean that if we sin big enough that we lose contact with God? A&E did the one thing to lose contact with God. You are stating the one thing that we can do to lose contact with God. I think if we let Jesus into our hearts, then we can stand firm against any onslaught.
I think that A and E didn't understand what they were giving up. Up until the fall they knew only Good. Which is what God would have wanted --- for them never to know the evil part.
How could one understand something they've never tried?
Maybe you would have lasted two years -- we'll never know.
Satan is strong and his influence is strong-- that's why Jesus went to the cross, to win over satan. He was brutally tortured even before the cross, but He never gave up...He never let satan have the victory.

I agree with you...if we let Jesus into our hearts we can withstand onslaught. I can testify to the fact that I've had onslaught but have never abandoned Jesus because of my love for Him and what He did for me.

The only enemy we really have is ourselves. Maybe we give up on God; maybe we become disappointed because He didn't give us what we want; maybe we feel abandoned by Him and become angry.

I do know that the writers of the N.T. warn us about falling away...so, instead of saying the warnings are not there, I like to believe what I read and consciously hold on tight to God!
 
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Bobber

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I think that A and E didn't understand what they were giving up. Up until the fall they knew only Good. Which is what God would have wanted --- for them never to know the evil part.
How could one understand something they've never tried?
I think really that God did reveal sin was evil. He said it would produce death. The knowledge of good and evil that God didn't want them to KNOW was I think knowledge by experience, in other words actually experiencing death, spiritual death first and years later physical death. It was good enough to KNOW and UNDERSTAND about this subject by God's revelation...not experience. God laid down first though a good foundation to trust him. He first revealed his LOVE and GOODNESS to the couple.

He gave them a beautiful Earth, well the Garden to start with which was to be used as a template to replenish the rest of the planet, or order to give them things to achieve to bring a sense of fulfillment . God gave them Dominion and I think that would have meant going out into the universe of the physical, of the Stars and the galaxies beyond and making those places like the replenished Earth.

God having been so good to them should have served to make them stand firm against the devil's insinuation that he wasn't. It's my feeling although I can't prove it by scripture but just a hunch that God will reintroduce this plan of going to the Stars and saints won't need some silly tin can space ship to get there either. Horrible it will be for those not allowed to be a part of this future even from this one possibility alone. Earth is the beginning point a place we'd consider home base. But the Earth is so small and insignificant? Yes but what are the principals of how God works? SEEDS! He said of the mustard seed,

It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:32 But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it. Mark 4: 31

God's principal is to take something small even extremely small (less than all the seeds) and effect something GREAT! The Earth might be like a mustard seed. We may be at such a beginning stage of things it's not even funny. I'd hope people wouldn't choose to miss out on what's coming up ahead regardless of what that might be!
 
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Major1

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I know.
But they seem to cover all the others...although Jesus did leave us with specific things to do -- it's good that love be explained.

But you still refuse to answer to my posts.
When someone posts a verse, I always reply to it.

I don't understand why everyone doesn't do this.
Here they are again:

Mathew 7:23
Mathew 7:24
John 14:15
James 1:22

I will be glad to give you the correct exegesis of the Scriptures you asked about.

The reason I have not responded to your questions is really simple. You are convinced that what you believe is correct and it makes no difference what anyone shows you from the Scriptures. It therefore becomes a waste of my time to do this back and forth banter over something that does not exist in the Scriptures. I am sure that your response to this post will verify what I just said.

But I digress. The important fact to know is that it is a real blessing from God that our salvation does not depend on what we think about one losing their salvation.

Now then, when one considers the Scriptures, we all from one perspective or the other use the same Scriptures to formulate our understanding. However, right there is a problem. If two people use the same Scripture to validate different sides then that is a "contradiction". Is that possible????? NO! There is not and can not be any errors or contradictions in the Word of God as either one would make God a Liar and if that is the case then no one is or has ever been saved. So what is the only answer then...……..
Our own lack of Holy Spirit lead understanding!

So then, you asked about Matthew 7:23...…………
"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

CONTEXT is always the key to understanding. So then please read verse 24...…………
"Many will say to me in that day, LORD, LORD, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?"

Clearly Jesus has just condemned salvation by WORKS. They were NEVER believers to begin with as they had placed their salvation on WORKS as there is no mention here of FAITH IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.

NO Born Again believer will ever hear the words from Jesus....."I never knew you".
Every believer instead will hear Jesus say....."Come unto me ye who are weary and I will give you rest".

Bottom line here is that the people Jesus was speaking to WERE NEVER SAVED TO BEGIN WITH as you can clearly see the words of God when He said....
"I NEVER KNEW YOU".

That means the idea of anyone losing their salvation can not be applied to this verse at all.

Then you asked for exegesis of Matthew 7:24...…….
"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock".

I do not know why you used this verse to try and prove that salvation can be lost by the individual. There is nothing there to suggest that we can lose something that we did nothing to obtain.

However I will agree 100% with what said in that He, Jesus Christ is the ROCK of salvation!

Acts 4:12...……..
"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved."

1 Corinthians 3:11...…….
"For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ."


Then you asked about John 14:15...………
"If ye love me, keep my commandments."

Now when YOU read that verse, can you tell me where it says that "IF I do not obey the commands of God I will lose my salvation"????????

Is that what it says my dear sister?????? NO! IT DOES NOT!

You see, as a "legalist" you are making the Scriptures say what YOU want them to say instead of reading them as they are written. You are saying by your theology that Jesus said...…."YOU will keep my commands if you love me" but that is NOT WHAT JESUS SAID AT ALL.

You and every one else who has bought into the "I can lose my salvation" and use this verse to validate your own personal theology are in fact saying...……………..
" born again believer we must prove our love for the Lord Jesus Christ by doing what He has told us to do. That is our duty and it is a condition we must live up to if we are to know that He truly loves us".

But what does the Word of God say about just that in Ephesians 2:8-9...…………
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast."

So then, because you have said we must obey the commands of Jesus Christ and we have read John 14:15, what is the TWO Specific commands that Jesus is referring to here?????????

1). John 13:34...…….
“A new command I give you: Love one another".

2). John 14:1 & 11.........…
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me… Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves”.

Is that what Jesus said? Is that what He meant to say?? Well actually He said them TWICE because we see in John 3:23...……………..
“And this is His command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as He commanded us.”

Then of course there is James 1:22 which all who believe in works to keep their salvation where James says...…..
"But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves."

I will have to be a little technical here to explain the obviouse and WHY.

James here does not use the ordinary Greek verb for the word "BE" which is EIMI.
The word he uses is the Greek word GINESTHE which literally means …..
"To become, to be born, to come into existence".

Again, the CONTEXT and Grammer is for the born again person.

Therefore, God is NOT ASKING the unsaved person to do anything except BELIEVE!

Where the people came to Jesus as asked Him....."What shall we do that we might inherit eternal life".

Jesus said to them in John 6:28-29..……."DO (GINESTHE) ?? Why this is the will of God that you BELIVE on Him He has sent".

DOING as far as God is concerned is to believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, should then we who have accepted Christ as Saviour do good works? YES!!!!!!!
Good works are the product of salvation in that beause we have loved Christ we now want to do what He would do if He was here with us.
 
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Major1

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I'm Christian, and to tell you the truth, I've been struggling with what is the one truth? Are the Christians right about heaven and hell or the Catholic version the correct one? Each has their strengths and weaknesses. The Christian pov is simple and direct. It tells of a narrow gate that some will enter while a majority enter the wider gate into hell. That seems true to me. There will be those who will not believe or do not hold firm to their faith. Did Peter not deny Jesus three times? The majority will not fit through the narrow gate. The weakness of this view is that Jesus is like ourselves. He would be a just and fair judge. He would let the punishment fit the crime. It could be circumstances that a person did not know Jesus. How can these people end up in hell? The hell would have to have different levels for the punishment to fit the crimes, in this case, ignorance. Then, there are those who could be like us, believers that we won't deny Jesus like Peter. Yet, when the time comes, we won't be ready to die for our faith. That's why I believe that it's the heart and not the mind. The mind can be swayed, but love in our hearts for Jesus, just like that towards a close loved one, is harder to dissuade and will remain firm.

My brother, there is NO human view which is the right view whether it be Catholic, or Protestant.

The ONLY view which is correct and acceptable is the Bible view.

Yes, Peter deined Jesus 3 times and Jesus forgave him and used him greatly because of his confession and repentance. That does not say, neither does it even suggest that Peter lost his salvation. HE SINNED as a believer and God forgave him.

YOU and I do the exact same thing every day we live my brother. Now do you really believe that because you used God's name in vain that God just condemned you to hell?
NO! When you did not take out the garbage when your father told you to, did you all of a sudden stop being his child? NO!.

Now then......ALL who reject Christ go to hell. Even if a man has never heard the gospel and knows nothing about God he still goes to hell. BUT the Bible teaches us that there are differing levels of punishment based what we do or do not know.
 
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Major1

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Good questions asked there GG101.

Notice that in Isaiah 66:23 God does not say "in the New Earth animal sacrifice every week and every month".

But what He does say is that in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship"

So then - something known to the OT saints would be going on for all eternity after the cross for all mankind.



If animal sacrifices were really going to continue for all eternity then Isaiah 66 could well have said "from week to week shall all mankind come before me to offer animal sacrifices in the New Earth".

I was going along with the discussion about the Bible making a distinction between ceremonial vs moral law of God.

I believe personally and it is my opinion that animal sacrifices will resume in Israel after the Rapture but will end at Armageddon and will not be instituted in the New Heaven and New earth.

It seems to me that the Old Test. prophets were teaching us that the millennial sacrificial system will be instituted as a commemorative celebration of the completeness of the last and efficacious sacrifice of our Saviour, Jesus Christ our Lord and redeemer. The temple will truly become a house of prayer for all nations.
 
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jamesbond007

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I think that A and E didn't understand what they were giving up. Up until the fall they knew only Good. Which is what God would have wanted --- for them never to know the evil part.
How could one understand something they've never tried?
Maybe you would have lasted two years -- we'll never know.
Satan is strong and his influence is strong-- that's why Jesus went to the cross, to win over satan. He was brutally tortured even before the cross, but He never gave up...He never let satan have the victory.

I agree with you...if we let Jesus into our hearts we can withstand onslaught. I can testify to the fact that I've had onslaught but have never abandoned Jesus because of my love for Him and what He did for me.

The only enemy we really have is ourselves. Maybe we give up on God; maybe we become disappointed because He didn't give us what we want; maybe we feel abandoned by Him and become angry.

I do know that the writers of the N.T. warn us about falling away...so, instead of saying the warnings are not there, I like to believe what I read and consciously hold on tight to God!

It could've been naivete. We have the benefit of hindsight. Yet, if A&E were perfect, then they would've discussed and did something to prevent it. They may have erected a barrier. And was it just them? The command would've applied to all of us. Then I can see the Tree being under lock and key like Fort Knox :). It would be an all or none situation.
 
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Major1

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Is faith a work? Does a man earn the cheque for a million dollars he has inherited from his recently-deceased rich uncle? No. He simply believes the money is his and receives it. This is true of the gift of salvation one may receive from God, too.

And from where does faith to believe come? God. (Romans 12:3) Our salvation is ultimately God's doing, not ours; it depends upon His work, not ours (John 6:44).



Here's the verse you quoted with a bit of surrounding context:

Romans 11:19-23
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in."
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


Since, as I've explained in earlier posts, Scripture makes it very clear that a genuinely born-again person cannot lose their salvation, I must interpret what Paul is saying here in the light of these other verses. What, then, does "cut off" mean for the genuinely born-again Gentile believer? Well, if I've purchased medication at the behest of my doctor for the treatment of, say, pneumonia and I come to believe that the medication won't help and refuse to take it, does the medication cease to be mine? No. I am cut off by my unbelief from its medicinal benefit, but the medicine is still mine. In the same way, salvation may be emptied of most of its spiritual benefit and the believer made useless to God by the believer's unbelief, but they may still be in possession of their membership in God's family.

Is Israel, the nation of God's Chosen People, utterly forsaken by God in its unbelief? No. As Paul indicates in Roman 11, God is still acting toward His Chosen People in a special way. He has not abandoned them as His People but will, in the end, save the nation. Why would God do this? Why, since there is a New Covenant for all people in Christ, has He not dissolved all relationship with the nation with which He had made the Old Covenant? Because God is faithful; He finishes what He starts. And this is as true for His children adopted in Christ, as it is for the Jews. God is faithful even when we are not. He does not abandon us when we drift from Him.

Philippians 1:6
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;


1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.


In light of these things, whatever "cutting off" my unbelief may cause, it does not, I believe, extend to my salvation.



Receiving a knowledge of the truth does not equate to salvation. I know of many people who have received a knowledge of the Gospel and who readily acknowledge God exists but who have done so only on an intellectual level. Their knowledge and agreement with these things has not reached their heart and so, despite what they may know, they are not actually saved.



Christ's words here speak to the uselessness of those who have lost their "saltiness." He does not indicate that he means the "un-salty" are saved folk who have become unsaved. This you have read into his words.



No, it is clear to those with the presupposition of a saved-and-lost doctrine. And an open mind has nothing to do with it. You have a very closed mind to my perspective. How, then, are you able to see what you do if an open mind is so necessary?



Very little - except that he could always claim to be a son to his father.



??? The Prodigal Son got a party at the end of the parable! And even those believers whose works are entirely burned up will still enter heaven "though as by fire." (1 Corinthians 3:14)



This is something you're reading into the parable. The parable is really focused, not on the Prodigal, but upon the father. To those hearing the parable for the first time, the father would have stuck out like a sore thumb. His conduct toward his son would have been thought scandalous to Christ's first-century audience. The parable, then, isn't aimed at teaching about salvation, primarily, but about the faithful, gracious, patient, and forgiving character of God (demonstrated in the attitude and behaviour of the Prodigal's father).

It seems to me that when you use the word "apparently," what you really mean is "apparently to those who are seeing the parable through a saved-and-lost doctrinal filter." As I've already explained in other posts, the son was dead to his father in terms of their fellowship with each other. This is plainly evident in the parable itself.



I disagree. See my posts in this thread.



No where in the passage from John 3 does it say what you have here. And your added qualification makes your salvation entirely dependent upon you. Essentially, you are promoting works-salvation which Scripture explicitly contradicts. (Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5; Romans 9:11, etc.)

NO. "Faith" is a gift!

Salvation is by grace.
Salvation is through faith.
Salvation is not of yourselves.
Salvation is the gift of God.
Salvation is not of works.
Paul was not giving an exposition on faith in his letter to the Ephesians. Salvation was his focus. Faith is mentioned as the mode by which salvation is accepted. Salvation is through faith. Just as water is received into a house in twenty-first-century America through a pipeline, a sinner receives salvation through obedient faith. The main focus of Paul’s message in Ephesians 2:8-9 was salvation (the living “water that springs up into everlasting life”—cf. John 4:14), not the mode of salvation.
Is Faith a Gift from God?
 
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Major1

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So, did Ezekiel 18:24 do you in? Is that passage of truth too much for you to handle?

I am reluctant to engage in this conversation because from reading your comments most anyone can see that you are twisting the Scriptures to make them say what YOU want them to say.

I would say to you that I can and most anyone can do the same thing. The key to proper exegesis of the Word of God however is not to do such a thing but instead STUDY TO SHOW YOURSELF APPROVED OF GOD< A WORMAN WHO RIGHT DIVIDES THE WORD OF GOD.

Now you use Ezekiel 18:24 like a whipping stone to beat those who disagree with you into submission. Do you honestly as a born again believer think that that is the right way to do the exegesis of God's Word?????

Anyway, it is a well established g=fact that those who want to believe that they can lose their salvation have over the years historically used Ezekiel 1*:24 as one of the cornerstones of their teaching.

But that is not the meaning of Ez. 18:24. Rather the passage can not mean that. He is talking about one who has merely an outward religiosity and frequently departs into a life of sin and wickedness because he has NO inner principles of Godliness to guide him.

So the real lesson just like all the others you have used is that a mans temporary life may be cut short but his eternal life WHICH HE NEVER HAD TO BEGIN WITH cannot be lost.
 
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jamesbond007

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My brother, there is NO human view which is the right view whether it be Catholic, or Protestant.

The ONLY view which is correct and acceptable is the Bible view.

Yes, Peter deined Jesus 3 times and Jesus forgave him and used him greatly because of his confession and repentance. That does not say, neither does it even suggest that Peter lost his salvation. HE SINNED as a believer and God forgave him.

YOU and I do the exact same thing every day we live my brother. Now do you really believe that because you used God's name in vain that God just condemned you to hell?
NO! When you did not take out the garbage when your father told you to, did you all of a sudden stop being his child? NO!.

Now then......ALL who reject Christ go to hell. Even if a man has never heard the gospel and knows nothing about God he still goes to hell. BUT the Bible teaches us that there are differing levels of punishment based what we do or do not know.

You discuss what I struggle with. What if it was solely ignorance such as someone who died as a baby or young child? What if they weren't brought up in the Christian religion? Yet, they didn't commit any grave injustice and break the Ten Commandments? What if their big sin was they became bitter in their old age and turned against Jesus because their close family died in an accident or catastrophe? What about Darwin? He's buried in Westminister Abbey. He didn't recant his disbelief on his death bed. He just died famous. What if Richard Dawkins sincerely recants on his death bed? His young wife at bedside attests to it ;). We're told the story of the parable of the workers in the vineyard. What if one believes and dies wealthy? Bill Gates and his wife are trying to leave their wealth behind by willing most of their wealth to charity and their foundation. My experience is the Christian view isn't as well defined as the Catholics. If there something tantamount to Mosaic Law from the OT, then it's Cathechism.

For those who do not know about the differences:
Catholic

Christian
 
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Sure an inheritance is earned...try being a nasty nephew and see what the rich uncle leaves you.

But does God offer us a spiritual inheritance in Christ on this basis? Did He send His Son to die for us because we were "good nieces and nephews"? Does He offer us the gift of salvation in Christ because we have earned it? Scripture is very clear that God acted in love toward us while we were wicked sinners (Romans 5:8) and "alienated and enemies in our minds toward Him by our wicked works." (Colossians 1:21). It is in this condition of alienation and enmity that God holds out to us a spiritual inheritance in His Son. And when a sinner takes hold of the eternal gift God offers in Jesus, he does so unable to claim that he has done anything to earn it - just like the man in my analogy.

He won't leave you much, but will leave a lot to the nephew he loves. God is the same. Those that go to God following God's conditions will be loved by God. And even though God loves ALL His creation, those that do not meet His conditions will be lost. He is a just God.

You say God loves "all of Creation" but did Christ die for all of Creation? No, he atoned only for the sins of wicked humanity. God has a unique interest in, and love for, people - even when they are not obeying Him.

The man in my inheritance analogy must meet certain conditions to benefit from what his rich uncle has left him. As I explained, he must know and believe that he has an inheritance and then he must receive it. None of these things, though, do anything to earn the inheritance. The inheritance, in my analogy, is given as God's is to us, totally apart from the inheritor having done anything to deserve it.

Titus 3:5-7
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

As to Romans 12:3
God offers His grace to all, it is our responsibility to answer to it. We are saved BY GRACE, THROUGH FAITH.
The grace is God's, the faith is ours.

No, as Romans 12:3 indicates, the faith is not ours, but is given to us by God. We exercise the faith God has dealt to us in measure.

Ephesians says our salvation is not by our WORKS, verse 9, but it must necessarily be by our faith since it is faith that saves us.

But as Romans 12:9 says, even our faith is imparted to us by God. And it is not our faith that saves us but the object of our faith: Jesus Christ. As Paul stated in his letter to Titus, "He (God) saved us."

Ephesians 1:13 AFTER listening to the message of truth and having believed...we were sealed with Him.

Yes. I don't take the Calvinist view that God forces us into his kingdom. But it is only because God has first acted positively toward us, and enabled us to respond to the Gospel in kind (2 Timothy 2:25), that we may do so.

As to John 6:44

God has revealed Himself to all the world.
He revealed Himself to ALL of Israel, not just some persons.

The verse does not speak of revealing, but of drawing. God draws men to salvation. If He does not, as Jesus says, no man can come to him.

Stop taking your medicine and the pneumonia will kill you.

This entirely misses (or ignores) my point which was that, whether or not one believes the medicine is helpful, it is still one's own medicine.

No sir. This is not correct.
Romans 9 to 11 is speaking about the nation of Israel and the Jews. Do not confuse this with the rest of the book which also speaks about INDIVIDUAL salvation.

Yes, it is correct. I have not confused what Paul wrote about concerning the Jews (and you have not shown that I have).

God never abandons us, but WE abandon HIM. If we drift from Him we are most definitely in danger of losing our salvation.

If a person drifts from God, there's a good chance they were never saved. But if they were truly saved and have drifted, doing so no more dissolves their membership in God's family than the profligacy of the Prodigal dissolved his membership in his father's family (which it didn't). Our adoption into God's family is entirely contingent upon Christ, not us. God accepts us because of His beloved Son, period. The redemptive work of Jesus at Calvary was perfect, fully satisfying God's justice, and cannot be added to or improved by anything we might or might not do. And since the foundation of our salvation and acceptance by God is the perfect and unchanging Saviour, our acceptance with God never changes.

If we DENY HIM, He will DENY us.
Mathew 10:33
2 Timothy 2:12
( and I sure hope you know what it means that God is faithful to HIMSELF in verse 13)

Is Matthew 10:33 speaking of people who are saved and then deny their Saviour? I don't think so. It is the lost who have denied and will deny Christ, not the saved.

2 Timothy 2:12-13
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abides faithful: he cannot deny himself.


Again, it is the lost who reject, refuse, disavow (all legitimate synonyms for "deny") the Saviour, not those who have been truly born-again. (1 John 2:19)

The above verses are absolutely right.
As long as we remain in Christ and ALLOW him to work, the above will be accomplished.

This isn't what the verses say, however. As Paul wrote to the Philippians, God (not us) begins a work in each of His children and He (not us) will bring that work to completion. (Philippians 1:6) This is repeated by Paul in his letter to the Thessalonians. The God who wants to sanctify completely His children and make every part of them blameless, Paul writes, is faithful to do so. Our salvation is God's work and our practical sanctification is His work. And this work God has promised to fulfill and complete. He does this whether or not I want Him to. Imagine if God had waited for rebellious sinners, alienated from and at enmity with Him, as Scripture says, to turn of their own accord, and humble themselves, and receive His love, grace and forgiveness. He'd still be waiting! God is always taking the initiative with us, moving us in directions we often don't want to go. I see in this just how little my desire and ability to please God has to do with my relationship with Him. In fact, without God, I would have neither the desire nor the ability to do His will. (Philippians 2:13)

How can He work, however, if we LEAVE HIM??

How did He save us when we were totally separated from Him by our sin, at enmity with Him in our minds and hearts and so completely alienated from Him? Despite our terrible condition, He still manages to save us. You see, we aren't what is important, He is.

Have we lost our free will? Will He force us to be saved and go to heaven even if we don't want to?

No, we have free will. But He makes us able to exercise that will positively toward the Gospel.

Only those who WANT to be in heaven will be there.

And we only want heaven if God has persuaded us to want it. Again, God is the crucial factor, not us.

Biblically knowledge means in the heart, but I know what you mean.

No, it doesn't always mean this. Where did you get this idea from?

You're referring to Mathew 5:13

JESUS says:
New American Standard Bible
"You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men."

I believe the above really needs no explanation...
YOU refers to those who are the salt of the earth... US
IF we lose our taste it means we are no longer the saved.
We become GOOD FOR NOTHING and are THROWN OUT and TRAMPLED underfoot.

Doesn't sound like heaven to me!

Well, hang on, now. To whom was Jesus speaking and when? He was speaking to unsaved Jews, primarily. and he said what he did in Matthew 5:13 before he had died on the cross and made it possible for people to be born-again. So, no, he wasn't speaking to "US," that is, saved people when he spoke of the "salt of the earth." There were no saved people at the time.


Which deflects my question.

You could "claim" to be a son of the Father all you want to...
But if you gain nothing from it, what good does it do??

But as the parable of the Prodigal makes clear, the Prodigal's sonship was very beneficial to him. He gained an inheritance, and when he had used it all up, he was able to return to the loving, fully-accepting arms of his father.

As to 1 Corinthians 3:14, I'm willing to discuss it...
but does it really mean THE SINNER??
Or does it mean the teachers who are building on a foundaiton??
See verse 9

How does verse 14 start? "If any man's (or anyone's)... Verse 11: "No man"... Verse 15: "If any man"... Verse 12: "Now if any man's..." Seems pretty clear to me that Paul was speaking in a very general sense and not specifically about teachers.

However, dead biblically speaking, means death spiritually.

No, it doesn't. I already pointed this out to BobRyan in this thread:

I see the term "dead" used in a number of ways in the New Testament:

It is used figuratively.

Matthew 28:3-4
3 His countenance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow.
4 And the guards shook for fear of him, and became like dead men.


It is used literally.

John 11:14
14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, "Lazarus is dead."


It is even used in connection with non-biological things.

Hebrews 6:1
1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,


I don't see, then, that there is the reason you suggest for thinking that, when the father in the Prodigal parable says that his son was "dead," that he meant "dead in trespasses and sins."

As to works-salvation...
There is no such concept that we are saved by works.
I do not believe in works salvation.

I'm afraid you do - though, you do so one step removed from conversion. You don't say one can be saved by works, but you do say that salvation can only be maintained or preserved by good works. This is, to quote BobRyan, "a distinction without a difference." If your works are necessary to the retention of your salvation, then your salvation is works-dependent. This is works-salvation which Scripture flatly denies.

To analogize: Imagine a judge who casts a serial murderer into prison with the declaration, "I am keeping you in jail for the rest of your life!" The murderer is jailed and is never released. Who has actually kept the murderer in jail? The judge? Or the staff at the prison? The prison staff, of course. Whatever the judge has claimed about his role in the convict's fate, the practical reality is different. You seem to be thinking in a similar way. God says, "I save sinners!" but you think that, really, you are kept in God's kingdom - you are saved - by dint of your own efforts. You give lip service to Ephesians 2:8-9 but think and live practically in contradiction to these verses. At least, that's how it looks to me. Am I mischaracterizing your position?
 
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EmSw

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I am reluctant to engage in this conversation because from reading your comments most anyone can see that you are twisting the Scriptures to make them say what YOU want them to say.

I would say to you that I can and most anyone can do the same thing. The key to proper exegesis of the Word of God however is not to do such a thing but instead STUDY TO SHOW YOURSELF APPROVED OF GOD< A WORMAN WHO RIGHT DIVIDES THE WORD OF GOD.

Ezekiel says what it says. You can either believe it or make up some excuse (as you have done below) to not believe it. In fact, you have added others things than what it actually says.

Now you use Ezekiel 18:24 like a whipping stone to beat those who disagree with you into submission. Do you honestly as a born again believer think that that is the right way to do the exegesis of God's Word?????

Anyway, it is a well established g=fact that those who want to believe that they can lose their salvation have over the years historically used Ezekiel 1*:24 as one of the cornerstones of their teaching.

I'm not beating you into submission. You choose yourself to believe it or not. Why do you not believe the whole counsel of God? Are you above Ezekiel 18:24?

But that is not the meaning of Ez. 18:24. Rather the passage can not mean that. He is talking about one who has merely an outward religiosity and frequently departs into a life of sin and wickedness because he has NO inner principles of Godliness to guide him.

So the real lesson just like all the others you have used is that a mans temporary life may be cut short but his eternal life WHICH HE NEVER HAD TO BEGIN WITH cannot be lost.

Of course, it's not the meaning you want. So, the passage cannot mean what it says, right?

It says nothing about an outward religiosity (something you've added). From where do you get the liberty to add your thoughts to the word of God? It also says nothing about any temporary life being cut short (something else you've added).

I guess I need to give the passage again, so others can see what you've made up is not in the verse.

Ezekiel 18:24
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

It is speaking of the righteous (saved man) turning away from his righteousness, and committing iniquity. He does all the abomination that a wicked man does. The Lord then asks, 'shall he live?' The answer is no. In his sin he shall die.

You also say a righteous man never had eternal life to begin with. Perhaps you can tell us when a righteous man does have eternal life.

It is all the things you have added to this verse, which constitute twisting.
 
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amariselle

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I'm afraid you do - though, you do so one step removed from conversion. You don't say one can be saved by works, but you do say that salvation can only be maintained or preserved by good works. This is, to quote BobRyan, "a distinction without a difference." If your works are necessary to the retention of your salvation, then your salvation is works-dependent. This is works-salvation which Scripture flatly denies.

This ^

Salvation:
By grace, through faith, not of works. It is the gift of God, lest any man should boast.

Works-based salvation:
Works save you or keep you saved.

If works are required for salvation, that is "works-based" salvation. Period. And that is not grace, not a gift.
 
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You discuss what I struggle with. What if it was solely ignorance such as someone who died as a baby or young child? What if they weren't brought up in the Christian religion? Yet, they didn't commit any grave injustice and break the Ten Commandments? What if their big sin was they became bitter in their old age and turned against Jesus because their close family died in an accident or catastrophe? What about Darwin? He's buried in Westminister Abbey. He didn't recant his disbelief on his death bed. He just died famous. What if Richard Dawkins sincerely recants on his death bed? His young wife at bedside attests to it ;). We're told the story of the parable of the workers in the vineyard. What if one believes and dies wealthy? Bill Gates and his wife are trying to leave their wealth behind by willing most of their wealth to charity and their foundation. My experience is the Christian view isn't as well defined as the Catholics. If there something tantamount to Mosaic Law from the OT, then it's Cathechism.

For those who do not know about the differences:
Catholic

Christian

You are asking a lot of question in a very short amount of time.

If you would like for me to engage you I will be more than happy to do so, however, please ask ONE at a time so that due diligence can be given to it.

So then the 1st one you asked was...……….
"What if it was solely ignorance such as someone who died as a baby or young child? :

Babies go to heaven as they are under the Blood of the Lord Jesus.

"God is love (1 John 4:8) and desires that all be saved (1 Timothy 2:4). God is love and His concern for children is evident in Matthew 18:14 where Jesus says, 'Your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.'"

The Old Testament account of David and Bathsheba when their baby boy dies. David "confessed his confidence that he would see the child again and he comforted his wife Bathsheba," indicating that David believed his son was with God.
 
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Major1

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Ezekiel says what it says. You can either believe it or make up some excuse (as you have done below) to not believe it. In fact, you have added others things than what it actually says.



I'm not beating you into submission. You choose yourself to believe it or not. Why do you not believe the whole counsel of God? Are you above Ezekiel 18:24?



Of course, it's not the meaning you want. So, the passage cannot mean what it says, right?

It says nothing about an outward religiosity (something you've added). From where do you get the liberty to add your thoughts to the word of God? It also says nothing about any temporary life being cut short (something else you've added).

I guess I need to give the passage again, so others can see what you've made up is not in the verse.

Ezekiel 18:24
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

It is speaking of the righteous (saved man) turning away from his righteousness, and committing iniquity. He does all the abomination that a wicked man does. The Lord then asks, 'shall he live?' The answer is no. In his sin he shall die.

You also say a righteous man never had eternal life to begin with. Perhaps you can tell us when a righteous man does have eternal life.

It is all the things you have added to this verse, which constitute twisting.

My dear friend, I do not choose to believe what YOU said that Ezekiel actually did say. That is all I am saying.

When anyon does the actual study of Ezekiel 18 it is clear that he is NOT talking about "Eternal Life" and who has it and who loses it. He is talking about the way God judges individuals.

18:4 says...….
"Behold, all souls are mine, as the soul of the father so also the soul of the son is mine, the soul that sinneth, it shall die".

Every man shall be put to death for his own sin because the wages of sin is death.

Verse 24 IS NOT speaking of a saved man losing his salvation. That is what YOU want it to say so you do it.

It has been my experience that the Congregational Holiness Church, the Wesleyan Holiness Movement, and the Charismatic Movement all misinterpret Ezekiel 18:24 to teach that a Christian can lose their salvation. Nothing could be further from the truth!

However, as you will see from other Scriptures in Ezekiel, this is NOT the case at all.

CONNEXT and Bible study alsys lead us to the correct understanding IF WE WANT IT TO. So then when we read Ezekiel 33:12-13 states …
"Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth. When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it."

Did you read that? ... “If he trust in his OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS.” This is the heart of the matter here. God is simply condemning self-righteousness.

The New Testament states in Romans 10:3-4 …
“For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.”

To claim that a person who commits sin can lose their salvation is to totally ignore such powerful Scriptures as Genesis 15:6 concerning Abraham...….
“And he (Abraham) believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for righteousness.”

The Apostle Paul plainly stated in Romans 4:5...….
“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”

These Scriptures clearly eliminate “works” as a necessity to one's eternal salvation.

However, usually it does not matter how much Bible Scripture is given, the person who wants to believe he can lose his salvation will always reject those Scriptures.
 
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