OSAS Discussion

[Buzz_B]

And affirming what I believe you mean, as the writer of Hebrews said, Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner. I am thinking you will agree with this.

After reading your above post, I am

If you had asked me that, I would have to honestly tell you that Paul's confidence was based upon seeing them speak and live truth, as well as his observation that where they needed help they were willing to yield to that help so as to receive it.

If I could see that willing, humble, yielding spirit in you then I would not be so worried that I see things you yet need to work on, for I would then know that God will be able to help you through to the end. And that was the source of the confidence that Paul there expressed.

If you have raised children you should understand. It works much the same when we try to help them.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Why ?

Its foggy outside my home this morning and your wording kinda left me in a similar fog I was thinking from your past post that I have read that you would believe in the eternal security of the believers. OSAS but with a strong emphasis on once!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If you had asked me that, I would have to honestly tell you that Paul's confidence was based upon seeing them speak and live truth, as well as his observation that where they needed help they were willing to yield to that help so as to receive it.

Good, as well as "having no confidence in the flesh" or in things "seen", rather in things "unseen" (spiritual , as written often)...
i.e. the messengers of YHWH have greater confidence in what is unseen than what is seen, since what is seen is temporal, while what is unseen is eternal (as written in YHWH'S Word).

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Its foggy outside my home this morning and your wording kinda left me in a similar fog I was thinking from your past post that I have read that you would believe in the eternal security of the believers. OSAS but with a strong emphasis on once!

Yes, I realize that.
The 'fog' remains , or the veil remains, until YHWH takes it away.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

If you had asked me that, I would have to honestly tell you that Paul's confidence was based upon seeing them speak and live truth, as well as his observation that where they needed help they were willing to yield to that help so as to receive it.

If I could see that willing, humble, yielding spirit in you then I would not be so worried that I see things you yet need to work on, for I would then know that God will be able to help you through to the end. And that was the source of the confidence that Paul there expressed.

If you have raised children you should understand. It works much the same when we try to help them.

That is not my confidence of what was Paul confidence. His confidence would be in the wording of Heb 12:2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

And to this Paul would agree, that He who began the good work in me will perform it unto the end. Sealed, to me, means what it says by the One doing the sealing, unto the day of redemption of the purchased possessions. Eph 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

That is not my confidence of what was Paul confidence. His confidence would be in the wording of Heb 12:2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

And to this Paul would agree, that He who began the good work in me will perform it unto the end. Sealed, to me, means what it says by the One doing the sealing, unto the day of redemption of the purchased possessions. Eph 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

No contradiction.
Just like a realtor can get a mortgage pre-approved, approved, signed sealed and delivered on behalf of the previous owner who has no moral legal way to take back what has already been accomplished....
but
no one can force the new owner to move in, or to stay.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Yes, I realize that.
The 'fog' remains , or the veil remains, until YHWH takes it away.

The fog is not what I believe but understanding from where you are coming from, I think I miss understood your position. I think I mentioned that in another post and the next post I thought made me think I misunderstood, but now I am thinking I was right, but will agree though, most of what I read you post, was right on. 2 Cor 3:12-18 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

More fog:

The fog is not what I believe but understanding from where you are coming from, I think I miss understood your position. I think I mentioned that in another post and the next post I thought made me think I misunderstood, but now I am thinking I was right, but will agree though, most of what I read you post, was right on. 2 Cor 3:12-18 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

 

[Buzz_B]

That is not my confidence of what was Paul confidence. His confidence would be in the wording of Heb 12:2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God

Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:....................
Hebrews 12:12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

I would say that it is funny how you ignored all of that so as to leave it out of your assessment, but it is not funny. It is sad.

And to this Paul would agree, that He who began the good work in me will perform it unto the end. Sealed, to me, means what it says by the One doing the sealing, unto the day of redemption of the purchased possessions. Eph 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

And ditto of what I said in the first part of this reply. I would say that it is funny how you ignored all of that so as to leave it out of your assessment, but it is not funny. It is sad.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

No contradiction.
Just like a realtor can get a mortgage pre-approved, approved, signed sealed and delivered on behalf of the previous owner who has no moral legal way to take back what has already been accomplished....
but
no one can force the new owner to move in, or to stay.

That is the difference between man making an agreement than God making an agreement, why would He seal someone with the Holy Spirit who He knew did not mean that they believed in the Lord for saving Him by grace through faith? Just as I posted from Romans 8:28-30 whom He called, He justified, and whom He justified, He glorified and v29 said He did that He predetermined these would take place and His word does not return to Him void but prospers where He sends it to prosper. Eph 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

That is the difference between man making an agreement than God making an agreement, why would He seal someone with the Holy Spirit who He knew did not mean that they believed in the Lord for saving Him by grace through faith?

Why would a realtor sign and seal (make legally binding) a contract with someone if he knew they were going to take off and disappear and not move in to the house legally and morally theirs ?

YHWH is not bound to hold someone against their will if they choose to leave.

He is only bound to keep His Own Word.

He did not recruit robots, nor will He make His children robots without free will to choose daily.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

About 20,900 results (0.42 seconds)
Search Results
Ezekiel 18:24 - Bible Gateway
Ezekiel 18:24 - Bible Gateway
If those who do the right thing turn from righteousness and engage in the same detestable practices that the wicked committed, can they do these things and live? .... And they sin. They do the same evil things a sinful person does. They do things I hate. Then they will not live. I will not remember any of the right things they ...

Ezekiel 33:12 - Bible Gateway
Ezekiel 33:12 - Bible Gateway
“·Human [ T Son of man; 2:1], say to your people: 'The ·goodness [righteousness] of ·those who do right [the righteous] will not save them ·when they sin [ L in the day ... For the good works of a righteous man will not save him if he turns to sin; and the sins of an evil man will not destroy him if he repents and turns from his sins.

Ezekiel 3:18 - Bible Gateway
Ezekiel 3:18 - Bible Gateway
Suppose I tell you that wicked people will surely die, but you don't warn them or speak out so that they can change their wicked ways in order to save their lives. Then these wicked people will die because of their sin, but I will hold you responsible for their deaths. GNT. If I announce that someone evil is going to die but you ...

 

[Buzz_B]

The fog is not what I believe but understanding from where you are coming from, I think I miss understood your position. I think I mentioned that in another post and the next post I thought made me think I misunderstood, but now I am thinking I was right, but will agree though, most of what I read you post, was right on. 2 Cor 3:12-18 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Be that as it may, circumcision of the heart is also about the veil removed from all of our hearts that our hearts be capable of receiving of both God's truths and God's disciplines when we fail to apply those truths. If we do not receive correction well that is proof that our heart yet remains veiled (our heart yet uncircumcised).

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

I appreciate that you think Phil 1:6 supports what you are saying but unfortunately it doesn't. It supports that he is fully able to do his part, and that should give us the assurance we need to place our full confidence in him so that we do not end up wavering in our faith. But it does not ensure that it is impossible for us to waver. To take it as if Paul meant that it ensures that it is impossible for us to waver ignores most of what Paul spoke in that chapter and the next chapter and in most of his writings.

Philippians 2:2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

But you will see it your preferred way, won't you. Oh well.

Edit: And PS/ I did not use the word "IF" in post 232. Did that help? LOL.

Every tub sits on its own bottom, and this is your understanding, not mine. My replies may not get agreement from those I post to, but hopefully others who are wanting to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord will just search out the scriptures and then determine who is right in a post and who is not. Its His word that does not return to Him void, not ours. That is the reason I post the verses so it can be read in context. A lot of what you have said can easily be shown to be out of context if one just reads the whole text.

 

[Buzz_B]

Every tub sits on its own bottom, and this is your understanding, not mine. My replies may not get agreement from those I post to, but hopefully others who are wanting to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord will just search out the scriptures and then determine who is right in a post and who is not. Its His word that does not return to Him void, not ours. That is the reason I post the verses so it can be read in context. A lot of what you have said can easily be shown to be out of context if one just reads the whole text.

Which house do you think Paul was talking about when he said:

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
22 ¶Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Do you think Paul was not speaking of the house of God here among the sinful flesh there? Or do you believe that Paul was speaking of the house of God there?

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

About 20,900 results (0.42 seconds)
Search Results
Ezekiel 18:24 - Bible Gateway
Ezekiel 18:24 - Bible Gateway
If those who do the right thing turn from righteousness and engage in the same detestable practices that the wicked committed, can they do these things and live? .... And they sin. They do the same evil things a sinful person does. They do things I hate. Then they will not live. I will not remember any of the right things they ...

Ezekiel 33:12 - Bible Gateway
Ezekiel 33:12 - Bible Gateway
“·Human [ T Son of man; 2:1], say to your people: 'The ·goodness [righteousness] of ·those who do right [the righteous] will not save them ·when they sin [ L in the day ... For the good works of a righteous man will not save him if he turns to sin; and the sins of an evil man will not destroy him if he repents and turns from his sins.

Ezekiel 3:18 - Bible Gateway
Ezekiel 3:18 - Bible Gateway
Suppose I tell you that wicked people will surely die, but you don't warn them or speak out so that they can change their wicked ways in order to save their lives. Then these wicked people will die because of their sin, but I will hold you responsible for their deaths. GNT. If I announce that someone evil is going to die but you ...

Indeed that is always a passage that many with the view point to that believe they are the ones keeping their salvation intact and I will give the view from that text that eternal security believers give and it is not me holding Him, but Him holding on to me. Ps 37:23-24 The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord, And He delights in his way. 24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down; For the Lord upholds him with His hand.

Also we must remember, and I am sure you do, that in the OT there are many times that the family or nation suffered because of the transgressions of one man. Like Aiken for instance, his whole family was thrown in the hole and died for his transgression. But I would not believe that if any of them did believe in God that they would not be with Him now, do you? In the wilderness wanderings, none over the age of 20 except 2 made it to the promise land, Moses didn't because he did not speak to the rock, do you think that Moses is not in heaven now, of course not, because he appeared on the mount of transfiguration with the Lord. Physical death is mentioned in Ezekiel, not eternal judgment. Those who are righteous in their hearts may commit a sin worthy of death, but do you think that nullifies their salvation? God only sees the heart of each person, He will give His righteous judgment on each person.
Here is what I see as His final word on the passage in Ezekiel; Eze 18:30-32 0 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live!”

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Indeed that is always a passage that many with the view point to that believe they are the ones keeping their salvation intact

oops - I did not read any further.
Big mistake, you made, right there (underlined)..

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Which house do you think Paul was talking about when he said:

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
22 ¶Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Do you think Paul was not speaking of the house of God here among the sinful flesh there? Or do you believe that Paul was speaking of the house of God there?

I will ask you before I answer you, do you think when you are in that house of God that you never sin?

But no to your last question, of course he is talking to all the believers and also for the benefit of those that say they are saved and are living habitual sinful lifestyles. But there are saved persons who need to forsake the deeds of the flesh and grow up and live the life style that they profess to believe in. Do you think that people in the body of Christ never sin? Are they lost because of committing a sin? If you no, but if they do it again, are they still saved? Which sin or number of sins makes a saint an ain't? The flesh is a battle throughout ones life times, no one ever reaches the sinless state in their walk on earth, at least I know none that believe they are perfect in their walk, but I know many who know their perfection is in the imputed righteousness of our Savior Jesus Christ. I let those who think they are perfect and don't sin answer that, but if they would let me walk with them for a short time, I would make it evident to them that they are not sinless in their actions. Self righteous people are overly blind to their actions and what actions they will admit to are sinful. Nevertheless, Jesus is my righteousness, sanctification, redemption and wisdom from God as shown in 1 Cor 1:30 -31 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— 31 that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.”

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

but Him holding on to me. Ps 37:23-24 The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord, And He delights in his way. 24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down; For the Lord upholds him with His hand.

No worries here.
Just remember, He NEVER holds you against your will/ joyful willingness .

If you CHOOSE to leave, He is 'obligated' to allow you to leave.(this is most awkward in english, but confirmed by all those who do choose to leave Him, and He doesn't go get them back)

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Why would a realtor sign and seal (make legally binding) a contract with someone if he knew they were going to take off and disappear and not move in to the house legally and morally theirs ?

YHWH is not bound to hold someone against their will if they choose to leave.

He is only bound to keep His Own Word.

He did not recruit robots, nor will He make His children robots without free will to choose daily.

Did they not by their will under the convicting power of the word of God believe His word and confess Jesus as their Lord and Savior? Was God not aware of the intent of their hearts and knowing whether the confession was sincere or not, only seal those who He knew would continue in the faith? So He seals them unto the day of redemption and then discovers they deserted the ship. You cannot believe that? How could He have called, justified and glorified these before the world began. And how would you know that all things work together for good to those who love God in Romans 8:28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

And don't forget that know in v28 is perfect tense, you know means they will know this and it never needs to be repeated, they know and keep on knowing that all things are working together for their good. Why, because Phil 1:29 it is God working in you to will and to do of His good pleasure. That is where my confidence is grounded, I know! by faith He is always faithful.