Orthodoxy and Transubstantiation

[The Liturgist]

Please accept my apology if anything I have written was offensive to you, I have not intended to offend you in any way. God willing I shall find my way to the orthodox sub forum and to the debate area and if I have any questions that I would like to discuss on a more debate-oriented approach I will do so in there, if I failed to do so please remind me, my memory is not perfect. God bless I thank you for your kind words.

You have not offended me at all, my friend, and please accept my apology if I came across as at all, shall we say, prickly. As you know I was recently bereaved, and during the past 24 hours I have been severely deprived of sleep. Although on a brighter note, my new laptop will be arriving in the morning, and your prayers would be appreciated that it works well and is a good addition to my fleet - most of my computers are desktops and servers, and it is only very rarely that i add a laptop. And I had not planned to do so at present, but the backlight in my Thinkpad X1 Yoga, which I had purchased on sale at Fry’s shortly before they went under, and which disappointingly turned out not to be a proper tablet with a stylus but the more low end version with the touchscreen, failed, but the machine was fast and I had been using it as my main desktop, although i hated the name - I can’t imagine IBM releasing a machine called the “Yoga.” Rather IBM would have called it something like the “X-390y” which would have been the model number had it not been for the Lenovo acquisition of IBM’s PC division. And alas they also now own the workstation and the Intel server business (but iBM still has POWER (system p and system i) midrange computers and z/Enterprise mainframes.

Finally I have an important appointment on Tuesday and your prayers would be appreciated ahead of that.

And I have to beg your forgiveness if all of this has caused me to be a bit … prickly. However I have resolved to implement the shared library, as we discussed in another thread.

 

[RileyG]

I do not think we affirm purgatory in any way...so that may make other parts suspect too

...because the EO doesn't see purgatory as a fire? BUT does believe in some form of cleansing after death?

 

[RileyG]

If you want to know what we have actually been taught, my library contains a volume which I will supply you with, called “The State of the Soul After Death” by Fr. Seraphim Rose.

It is also the case that the Orthodox believe that the suffering of those in Hades before the General Resurrection can be alieviated through prayer for the dead, and some would argue that the possiblity might exist for a change in eschatological status through intercessory prayer, owing to the infinte mercy of God the Father Almighty, the Holy Spirit and Christ Pantocrator, and the loving compassion of our glorious lady Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary and all the Saints, who, by virtue of their salvation through theosis, their sainthood, have become more like God in terms of their capacity for love and mercy, which is why they are worthy of veneration as icons of God, just like those icons which depict our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ.

But we must still prepare ourselves to stand before Christ Pantocrator.

+

Perhaps a reconciliation to our argument could be attained on these lines: Orthodoxy does, in general, but not exclusively, teach something vaguely similar to the idea of Purgatory as expressed in the current Catechism of the Catholic Church. However, Purgatory as expressed historically, as a place, for example, in Dante’s Divine Comedy, is unknown to us.

I would also note that the entire Orthodox Church has not reached consensus on this part, and additionally, the specific points I am raising are predominantly Eastern Orthodox - the Oriental Orthodox position is not as expressly defined, but the prevailing Eastern Orthodox view is not universally accepted either.

This takes us to my remark that the teaching authority in the Orthodox Church consists of the canonical diocesan bishops and the liturgy.

Whatever the liturgy says, is doctrine. Whatever Scripture says, in an accurate translation, is doctrine. The hymns in the liturgy, including the Creed, which we sing as a hymn rather than merely saying it in unison, provide the official interpretation of Scripture.

Everything else, for example, the highly regarded book by Fr. Seraphim Rose, has some merit, but it is secondary compared to the liturgy. But within each diocese, the Bishop, as the archpastor of that diocese, exercises a personal teaching office and is to be looked to as a figure of authority.

I actually have that book.

It's been many years since I've read it, though.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

...because the EO doesn't see purgatory as a fire? BUT does believe in some form of cleansing after death?

I think The Liturgist has already written on this in previous posts in this thread

 

[RileyG]

I think The Liturgist has already written on this in previous posts in this thread

Yes. Sorry. My mistake.

 

[zippy2006]

That’s not true.

It is true. You have not presented evidence against the document. You have just appealed to your own authority, which of course is not above Britannica. Obviously Orthodox can reject the council if they prefer, but that is much different from construing it as not saying what it says.

That shift is quite common among Orthodox. It begins, "The council did not say that." It ends, "The council did say that, but I reject the council." Fine, and that represents the trajectory of this thread itself.

Also common among Orthodox is the ability to disagree with everyone and in the process contradict themselves. For example, to disagree with Catholics on purgatory and Protestants on non-purgatory. It's pretty thoroughgoing contrarian gymnastics, that ability to disagree with everyone, even those who disagree among themselves.

 

[The Liturgist]

You have not presented evidence against the document. You have just appealed to your own authority, which of course is not above Britannica.

Wrong, my evidence was from the document, or at least the English translation I have, and the Greek original, which if searched, reveal only one mention of Purgatory, in the confession of faith allegedly written by Cyril Lukaris.

What is more, I do not reject the Synod of Dositheus, rather, I was explaining the limitations as to its applicability since it was a local council convened by the Church of Jerusalem which was not attended by all Orthodox bishops, nor has anyone ever regarded it as being ecumenical. That being said as far as I am aware that council is in effect in the Church of Jerusalem, which is not one known for ecumenical dialogue with the Protestants - Protestant pilgrims to the Holy land are potential converts but Protestant clergy are seldom helpful, but at least those less interested in Orthodoxy do not contribute to the massive crowds at the Holy Sepulchre that result whenever Pascha falls on the same day in both the Julian and Gregorian calendar, since on such occasions, they tend to go to Gordon’s Calvary, which remains popular because it looks like how people imagine the Holy Sepulchre, since it is adjacent to beautiful gardens, despite it having been proven to have only been built a few hundred years ago, and probably not as a jail cell (why place prisoners in a cell on the outer side of city walls? To let them escape more readily?) But I digress.

At any rate, local synods are important, and instructive, and the Synod of Dositheus did important work, in terms of laying down the law against encroachment into Eastern Orthodoxy of Protestant theology, and I would argue their work assisted our Coptic Orthodox brethren in accomplishing the successful expurgation of low-church Evangelicals and Charismatics who were trying to take over the denomination, and who had obtained control of several churches, in the extra-diocesan areas of the US (which now have diocesan bishops as opposed to mere “general bishops” as before - the latter existed to ordain people on the instruction of the Pope, but they could not depose clergy and they lacked the supervisory role of diocesan bishops), and even churches in the US, such as the cathedral in Muqattam.

 

[zippy2006]

Wrong, my evidence was from the document, or at least the English translation I have, and the Greek original, which if searched, reveal only one mention of Purgatory, in the confession of faith allegedly written by Cyril Lukaris.

Then you're quibbling about words. No one ever thought that this depends on whether the word "purgatory" turns up. Such is what Newman called a mere argument about words, as opposed to an argument about things. The question is whether the council affirms Purgatory, not whether it affirms "Purgatory."

 

[The Liturgist]

Then you're quibbling about words. No one ever thought that this depends on whether the word "purgatory" turns up. Such is what Newman called a mere argument about words, as opposed to an argument about things. The question is whether the council affirms Purgatory, not whether it affirms "Purgatory."

If the council does not affirm Purgatory by name, the most you could say is that it is affirming a doctrine like purgatory. Particularly since traditional Catholics and what one might call modern Catholics tend to have different understandings as to what Purgatory is and is not.

I would also note that the Orthodox and Roman Catholics alike have both been accused of quibbling over words in insisting on the use of homoousios to describe the co-essential relationship of Jesus Christ with the Father, and in rejecting the word Christotokos in favor of the word Theotokos in reference to the Blessed Virgin Mary, which our churches do in order to protect the doctrine of the Incarnation.

And for that matter, your church reject the apostolic succession of Anglican bishops because of differences in wording between their ordination liturgy (and presumably the liturgies by which their Lutheran counterparts are ordained), versus the liturgies by which Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Assyrian and most Old Catholic bishops are ordained. Many would allege this is quibbling as well, but it is not, it is important.

Theology is one of the few fields where nominal values are not interchangeable.

 

[zippy2006]

If the council does not affirm Purgatory by name, the most you could say is that it is affirming a doctrine like purgatory.

Eh, no. This is a bit like saying that Mexicans don't know what a cat is because they don't speak English. See my quote from Schaff.

 

[The Liturgist]

Eh, no. This is a bit like saying that Mexicans don't know what a cat is because they don't speak English. See my quote from Schaff.

No, its completely different, for the reason I stated: within theology, nominal values are relevant, whereas they might not be in other fields.

Especially with purgatory, which is understood in a different way by traditional Catholics and Catholics of the Renaissance and Baroque era, such as the late 17th century, which was very much a Baroque era, when the Council transpired. This is attested to by chantries, purgatorial societies, the Office of the Dead, the Brown Scapular and other devotions associated with indulgences, compared to the disinterest of contemporary Roman Catholics in those things.

 

[zippy2006]

No, its completely different, for the reason I stated: within theology, nominal values are relevant, whereas they might not be in other fields.

Especially with purgatory, which is understood in a different way by traditional Catholics and Catholics of the Renaissance and Baroque era, such as the late 17th century, which was very much a Baroque era, when the Council transpired. This is attested to by chantries, purgatorial societies, the Office of the Dead, the Brown Scapular and other devotions associated with indulgences, compared to the disinterest of contemporary Roman Catholics in those things.

If the nominal value was already relevant then you wouldn't require the substantive elaboration. Do you see that?

So which version of purgatory are you taking exception to in this thread? And which version is Britannica speaking about? Britannica cites itself for the doctrine:

"Purgatory, the condition, process, or place of purification or temporary punishment in which, according to medieval Christian and Roman Catholic belief, the souls of those who die in a state of grace are made ready for heaven." (Purgatory | Britannica)​

 

[The Liturgist]

If the nominal value was already relevant then you wouldn't require the substantive elaboration. Do you see that?

So which version of purgatory are you taking exception to in this thread? And which version is Britannica speaking about? Britannica cites itself for the doctrine:

"Purgatory, the condition, process, or place of purification or temporary punishment in which, according to medieval Christian and Roman Catholic belief, the souls of those who die in a state of grace are made ready for heaven." (Purgatory | Britannica)​

Well if you are using Britannica’s doctrine, we can categorically reject it, because the Orthodox believe that martyrs and confessors are instantly glorified and become saints, which means according to Roman Catholic and Orthodox doctrine, that for instance St. Maximus the Confessor is in Heaven, but we believe St. Maximus was in Abraham’s Bosom, glorified instantly the moment he perished as a result of having his tongue cut off for opposing Monothelitism, and martyrdom is obviously dying in a state of grace.

Really, the Orthodox views tend to be more frightening when one does not have an Orthodox phronema, which is why I have told you where they are but refuse to quote one. Only Orthodox Christians who have been full members of the church for at least three years are qualified to explain to you this issue, which is why you should be asking about this in the Ancient Way forum.

 

[zippy2006]

Well if you are using Britannica’s doctrine, we can categorically reject it, because the Orthodox believe that martyrs and confessors are instantly glorified and become saints,

So do Catholics. You are reading a strawman into Britannica, as if it were claiming that every person who dies in a state of grace must go through purgatory.

Only Orthodox Christians who have been full members of the church for at least three years

How long have you been a member?

...which is why you should be asking about this in the Ancient Way forum.

They are able to post here as well.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

the Orthodox believe that martyrs and confessors are instantly glorified and become saints

Catholics believe this too. Such is the case with every canonised saint and many who are not canonised.

 

[Valletta]

No, its completely different, for the reason I stated: within theology, nominal values are relevant, whereas they might not be in other fields.

Especially with purgatory, which is understood in a different way by traditional Catholics and Catholics of the Renaissance and Baroque era, such as the late 17th century, which was very much a Baroque era, when the Council transpired. This is attested to by chantries, purgatorial societies, the Office of the Dead, the Brown Scapular and other devotions associated with indulgences, compared to the disinterest of contemporary Roman Catholics in those things.

The Catholic Church has made few official statements about the purification that takes place for some individuals before they go to Heaven, that purification mentioned in the Bible that Catholics refer to as "purgatory." We don't even know if it is a place or a state. I don't think the popularity of various practices necessarily equates to a change in understanding. The Office of the Dead, for example, is part of the Liturgy of the Hours, which Catholic priests pray every day. Lay people are encouraged to pray at least parts of the Liturgy of the Hours. The Brown Scapular comes from private revelation, and devotions or the popularity of devotions change over time.

 

[RileyG]

@The Liturgist Putting a "literal fire" aside, is purgatory/cleansing after death such a huge deal?

The RCC doesn't seem to actually believe in a "literal fire" for heaven, hell, or purgatory, because they are involved in the afterlife, NOT this life.

 

[RileyG]

The Catholic Church has made few official statements about the purification that takes place for some individuals before they go to Heaven, that purification mentioned in the Bible that Catholics refer to as "purgatory." We don't even know if it is a place or a state. I don't think the popularity of various practices necessarily equates to a change in understanding. The Office of the Dead, for example, is part of the Liturgy of the Hours, which Catholic priests pray every day. Lay people are encouraged to pray at least parts of the Liturgy of the Hours. The Brown Scapular comes from private revelation, and devotions or the popularity of devotions change over time.

The clergy (bishop, priests, deacons, religious (monks/nuns, religious sisters/brothers) ) are required to pray the Office for the Dead on November 2nd, the feast for all Holy souls.

 

[RileyG]

Well if you are using Britannica’s doctrine, we can categorically reject it, because the Orthodox believe that martyrs and confessors are instantly glorified and become saints, which means according to Roman Catholic and Orthodox doctrine, that for instance St. Maximus the Confessor is in Heaven, but we believe St. Maximus was in Abraham’s Bosom, glorified instantly the moment he perished as a result of having his tongue cut off for opposing Monothelitism, and martyrdom is obviously dying in a state of grace.

Really, the Orthodox views tend to be more frightening when one does not have an Orthodox phronema, which is why I have told you where they are but refuse to quote one. Only Orthodox Christians who have been full members of the church for at least three years are qualified to explain to you this issue, which is why you should be asking about this in the Ancient Way forum.

Yes. Indeed. The RCC teaches the martyrs immediately receive the Beatific Vision (heaven) after death and do not pass through purgatory.

 

[RileyG]

No, its completely different, for the reason I stated: within theology, nominal values are relevant, whereas they might not be in other fields.

Especially with purgatory, which is understood in a different way by traditional Catholics and Catholics of the Renaissance and Baroque era, such as the late 17th century, which was very much a Baroque era, when the Council transpired. This is attested to by chantries, purgatorial societies, the Office of the Dead, the Brown Scapular and other devotions associated with indulgences, compared to the disinterest of contemporary Roman Catholics in those things.

To be fair, the Church no longer teaches purgatory as "a place of suffering." Medieval Catholicism isn't the same as Catholicism today. Those images of heaven, hell, or purgatory should not be taken literally.

Blessings