Orthodoxy and Anglicanism Ecumenical Dialogue

[Gxg (G²)]

The Coptic service features cymbals in a rhythmic pattern rather than drums. The chant is high-pitched and generally drawn out. I don't know the language but I can appreciate the expression anyway.

 

[MKJ]

That doesn't really fit with apophatism, since anything that can be said about God is ultimately incorrect in the strict sense.

not unless He reveals it. He can reveal His Truth to anyone who has a willing heart.

and we are not talking about apophatism. the fact that He established one visible Body on earth, and one visible Body has maintained that actually has nothing to do with apophatism.

Well, even things that God reveals directly are not, in apophatic theology, strictly correct, as in complete and accurate. They are always limited and a compromise with human intellectual limitations and human language. This is a really useful thing to know because it prevents us from making some kinds of errors, and can also become important in how we read Scripture. Ultimatly it is what protects us from descending into a kind of literalism and fundamentalism.

Take something like the Trinity, which in the normal course of things we would say is true, revealed information from God. And yet we can see that on some level it does not make normal sense, it does not quite hang together. It is trying to push us towards a sort of intuitive sense or way of touching God with the mind, but even that in the end is less than what God is. Our direct experience of him will be limited too, by what we are.

Another example of this is the seeming existence of paradox in Christianity which Chesterton explains so well. The solution very often is not either/or, but both/and.

There is, I think, some sense in which we can say it is true that opposing things cannot both be correct, but in Christianity, and in particular more traditional streams of Christianity, sometimes that is manifestly not the case.

I think we have to be very careful about deciding which of those situations we are in - typically when someone is on one side of the paradox, it seems like the other side is completely WRONG.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Well, even things that God reveals directly are not, in apophatic theology, strictly correct, as in complete and accurate. They are always limited and a compromise with human intellectual limitations and human language. This is a really useful thing to know because it prevents us from making some kinds of errors, and can also become important in how we read Scripture. Ultimatly it is what protects us from descending into a kind of literalism and fundamentalism.

Take something like the Trinity, which in the normal course of things we would say is true, revealed information from God. And yet we can see that on some level it does not make normal sense, it does not quite hang together. It is trying to push us towards a sort of intuitive sense or way of touching God with the mind, but even that in the end is less than what God is. Our direct experience of him will be limited too, by what we are.

well yeah, I agree. we cannot even accurately articulate a beautiful sunset, let alone God. but it's not an intellectual matter, it's a matter of the heart, which is where He communicates with man. what God does must be experienced, not just thought about and pondered. and only those with a similar experience will "know" what it was like.

hope that clarifies my point

 

[Crandaddy]

well yeah, I agree. we cannot even accurately articulate a beautiful sunset, let alone God. but it's not an intellectual matter, it's a matter of the heart, which is where He communicates with man. what God does must be experienced, not just thought about and pondered. and only those with a similar experience will "know" what it was like.

I now see why you wear your beards...

No more comments in this thread, please. I've submitted a request to have it closed.

 

[MKJ]

I now see why you wear your beards...

No more comments in this thread, please. I've submitted a request to have it closed.

What?

 

[ArmyMatt]

I now see why you wear your beards...

No more comments in this thread, please. I've submitted a request to have it closed.

um, that makes no sense

 

[Crandaddy]

um, that makes no sense

Well, since the mods are dragging their feet (or else deliberately ignoring me)...

...to hide the grimaces of guilt on your faces when you lie to the Holy Spirit by denying that other Christians who confess Jesus as Lord (1 Cor. 12:3) are baptized.

Ever hear of a bald-faced lie? I imagine it usually takes decades of practice, given the horrific nature of your church's blasphemy. By the time you're so calloused and numb to the Holy Spirit that you can keep a straight face, why bother with a razor? You must keep up appearances, after all.

And don't give me that “we don't know where grace is not” crap. When you see non-Orthodox Christians worshiping and glorifying God and rejoicing in the Spirit, you can know that those are baptized Christians. You can know that they've been quickened by the Holy Spirit and regenerated. You can see it in them. It shows. The Spirit Himself testifies to its authenticity. Deny this at your own peril (Mark 3:28-30).

How the hell can you Orthodox stand to look at yourselves in the mirror?

Moderators, please...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I'd love to attend one of those services some day to see what it's like. I've never seen drums and dancing incorporated into a formal liturgy before, but I think it's really cool! Unfortunately, I don't know of any church like that nearby. There's a Coptic church in Little Rock, but I don't think they do that sort of thing.

Hopefully, you'll be able to experience that at some point in the future...

 

[FireDragon76]

And don't give me that “we don't know where grace is not” crap. .

I think I understand your points, but I'm not sure others here do: you are trying to say the Orthodox appeal to experience, and yet discrediting the experiences of Western Christians. You should check out Georges Florovsky and Paul Evdokimov, however, before your write off Eastern Orthodoxy altogether for being narrow. There are some charitable and thoughtful Orthodox thinkers, they just won't dominate the reading list of some Orthodox Christians, especially those that seem to populate internet forums.

 

[GregConstantine]

@ Firedragon76, you often come across as very judgmental.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Well, since the mods are dragging their feet (or else deliberately ignoring me)...

...to hide the grimaces of guilt on your faces when you lie to the Holy Spirit by denying that other Christians who confess Jesus as Lord (1 Cor. 12:3) are baptized.

Ever hear of a bald-faced lie? I imagine it usually takes decades of practice, given the horrific nature of your church's blasphemy. By the time you're so calloused and numb to the Holy Spirit that you can keep a straight face, why bother with a razor? You must keep up appearances, after all.

And don't give me that “we don't know where grace is not” crap. When you see non-Orthodox Christians worshiping and glorifying God and rejoicing in the Spirit, you can know that those are baptized Christians. You can know that they've been quickened by the Holy Spirit and regenerated. You can see it in them. It shows. The Spirit Himself testifies to its authenticity. Deny this at your own peril (Mark 3:28-30).

How the hell can you Orthodox stand to look at yourselves in the mirror?

Moderators, please...

no lie at all, and not blasphemy. just because someone rejoices in the Lord does not mean they are part of the Body. the Ninevites in the OT, when Jonah confronted them, still repented and God accepted that repentence. but they were still outside of the covenant. many may have been saved eternally because of that repentence, but on this side of the grave, they were not in God's covenanted community.

that's not blasphemy, that's just Judeo-Christian history.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think I understand your points, but I'm not sure others here do: you are trying to say the Orthodox appeal to experience, and yet discrediting the experiences of Western Christians. You should check out Georges Florovsky and Paul Evdokimov, however, before your write off Eastern Orthodoxy altogether for being narrow. There are some charitable and thoughtful Orthodox thinkers, they just won't dominate the reading list of some Orthodox Christians, especially those that seem to populate internet forums.

no, we admit that the experiences of other confessions are legit, they could every well be. I don't know, God does. I don't discount that my grandmother, who was a Methodist, is in heaven right now. what Crandaddy seems to want us to say is that other confessions are members of the Church, which they are not. or that we must say that certain experiences are legit, which we cannot. it is not our business, but it is God's, so we leave it to Him.

 

[GregConstantine]

He wants us to do that because in the West, they have replaced the Theantropic Body of Christ with an institution that has a clear, "institutional" membership. And as Protestantism fractured into the thousands of denominations and "non demoninational groups, their understanding of the Church has become more and more vague in order to accommodate the blatant contradictory doctrines amongst themselves, over which they split, or they go the other extreme and say none of those doctrines matter, all that matter is you believe in Jesus. Well, Mormons, Arians, Muslims, Nestorians, Jehovah Witnesses, etc, all believe in Jesus too.

 

[Crandaddy]

I think I understand your points, but I'm not sure others here do: you are trying to say the Orthodox appeal to experience, and yet discrediting the experiences of Western Christians. You should check out Georges Florovsky and Paul Evdokimov, however, before your write off Eastern Orthodoxy altogether for being narrow. There are some charitable and thoughtful Orthodox thinkers, they just won't dominate the reading list of some Orthodox Christians, especially those that seem to populate internet forums.

Yes, I think it's possible to be both Orthodox and a Christian, but this is FAR from good enough.

Moderators, please CLOSE THIS THREAD!

Every comment from this point on will be flagged. I want this thread CLOSED!

 

[Hammster]

MOD HAT ON

Closed at OP request.
MOD HAT OFF
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