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Orthodoxy and Anglicanism Ecumenical Dialogue

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ArmyMatt

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I know we were, we were in communion with the Anglo Church for at least a decade after the Schism. St Waltheof of Northumbria is the last Western Saint on our Church, being martyred in 1070. but the problem is that the Church of England of a century ago is nothing like the Church of England today. my great grandmother's grandfather was Fr William Tracy, an Episcopal priest around Philly who died in 1903. reading his sermons I don't think he would recognize what the Anglican world has become.
 
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Crandaddy

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I know we were, we were in communion with the Anglo Church for at least a decade after the Schism. St Waltheof of Northumbria is the last Western Saint on our Church, being martyred in 1070. but the problem is that the Church of England of a century ago is nothing like the Church of England today. my great grandmother's grandfather was Fr William Tracy, an Episcopal priest around Philly who died in 1903. reading his sermons I don't think he would recognize what the Anglican world has become.

And just what has the Anglican world become, pray tell?
 
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ArmyMatt

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well, there are clergy who are pagan, homosexual, pro abortion, alcohol abusers, deny the Incarnation, deny the Resurrection, think that St Paul was just a sexist, etc

and then there is stuff like you don't even need to be Christian to partake of the sacraments. I remember that one from high school.

I think the fact that Katherine Jefferts Schori is actually a bishop speaks volumes.

one can walk down the street, pull into one church and see a gay marriage ceremony in the name of Creator, Redeemer, Sanctifier, with a priest who says that Jesus was just a man somehow and was married to Mary Magdelene, dressed up in vestments that look like rejected props from Babylon 5, with Kool and the Gang blaring for the happy couple, then walk across the street and see a parish full of solemnity and reverence, that rightly looks and sounds like something from the middle ages, and receive communion in both, shows how far the Anglo world is becoming. it's becoming Unitarian Universalism with ceremony.

and my family is still Anglican, so I hear the horror stories, especially from my grandparents. this is not the fringe anymore
 
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ArmyMatt

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The Anglican Communion is no longer Christian.

well, I wouldn't go that far. my previously mentioned grandparents are Anglican, and I wish I could be as Christian as they are.
 
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You can go that far, because we are talking about an organization, not indidividual people. Bear in mind, Anglicanism at the time your grandparents were growing up was quite different from what it is now.

You cannot deny the basic foundational tenents of Christianity and remain Christian. Otherwise, we might as well call Muslims Christians since we 1st considered Islam to be a Christian heresy when we 1st encountered Islam back in the day.
 
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ArmyMatt

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You can go that far, because we are talking about an organization, not indidividual people. Bear in mind, Anglicanism at the time your grandparents were growing up was quite different from what it is now.

You cannot deny the basic foundational tenents of Christianity and remain Christian. Otherwise, we might as well call Muslims Christians since we 1st considered Islam to be a Christian heresy when we 1st encountered Islam back in the day.

I see your second point, and I know that is happening and it is not just the fringe like it was back even when I was Anglican.
 
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FireDragon76

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You cannot deny the basic foundational tenents of Christianity and remain Christian. Otherwise, we might as well call Muslims Christians since we 1st considered Islam to be a Christian heresy when we 1st encountered Islam back in the day.

1) Anglicans do not, officially, deny any part of the Nicene creed. It's part of the Lambeth Quadrilateral which is the basis of ecumenical dialogue.

2) if a church were to excommunicate every material heretic, then churches would be quite small indeed, since few people have great theological understanding. And since when are we saved by perfect theology, anyways?
 
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Anglican bishops, priests, and theologians have been and are openly teaching heresy and engaging openly in acts contrary to the commandments of God. That is a far cry from what you are describing, Firedragon.

"And since when are we saved by perfect theology, anyways?"

Since the eternal Logos of God became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, eternally begotten of the Father, full of Grace and Truth.

Just as I said you cannot separate Christ from the Church, you cannot separate salvation from the person of Jesus Christ. It is not just what He did that saves us, but who He is that saves us as well, Therefore, you must say the correct things about who He is in order to be saved.
 
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FireDragon76

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The validity of sacraments is not determined by the worthiness of ministers. You could have a priest with bad theology that still intends to do what the church has always done, and those sacraments are valid.

You are mistaken if you think we are saved by saying the correct things about God. How is this even possible when God ultimately is incomprehensible? Your fundamentalist views do not fit with the mystical theology of the East. Many of the Fathers were more interested in the fruits of someones spiritual life, not the rhetoric on their lips.
 
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MKJ

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People seem to forget that the Anglican Communion does not just exist in North America. The majority - and not a small majority - of it is outside North America. And the Episcopal Church and the Anglican Church of Canada are both in impaired communion with other parts of the Communion, so it would be hard to say that what they are doing should be considered normative or widely accepted.
 
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We haven't forgotten that, we are very much aware that the Anglican communion exists outside of North America, and very much aware of the heresies and immorality being taught and practiced by those outside of North America as well.

guys, look, at one time, the Church in England was Orthodox and in communion with the Church. Not anymore

Regardless of the details, the most important point is that she is out of communion with the Church.

So, why not just come back into communion?
 
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Nephi

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People seem to forget that the Anglican Communion does not just exist in North America. The majority - and not a small majority - of it is outside North America. And the Episcopal Church and the Anglican Church of Canada are both in impaired communion with other parts of the Communion, so it would be hard to say that what they are doing should be considered normative or widely accepted.

It's my understanding that the African Churches in the Anglican Communion are nonetheless very low church, evangelical, and otherwise non-traditional even if theologically and morally conservative. That doesn't help much more than TEC, unless you're referring to other churches.
 
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MKJ

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It's my understanding that the African Churches in the Anglican Communion are nonetheless very low church, evangelical, and otherwise non-traditional even if theologically and morally conservative. That doesn't help much more than TEC, unless you're referring to other churches.

They are defiantly different in style - though that seems to be true in Orthodoxy too, I have never seen people dancing in North American or European Orthodox churches. I guess a lot might depend on just what you mean by evangelical and low-church, and as far as I know it is not the same throughout Africa and South America (which are after all large places.) Some are very non-structured from what I gather and might be what you mean by evangelical. Others are more low-church but that is normally in Anglicanism still very liturgical and means the BCP. And there are some that have more of a catholic sort of practice.


In any case, the comment was not that they were not Orthodox, or even orthodox.

It was that they were not Christian. I think that is a pretty extreme statement and really not at all justified looking at global Anglicanism (and rather sticky even for North American Anglicanism.)
 
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FireDragon76

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It's my understanding that the African Churches in the Anglican Communion are nonetheless very low church, evangelical, and otherwise non-traditional even if theologically and morally conservative. That doesn't help much more than TEC, unless you're referring to other churches.

Exactly. Conservative Anglicans can be talking about a very different ideal of what is worship and religion.
 
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MKJ

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We haven't forgotten that, we are very much aware that the Anglican communion exists outside of North America, and very much aware of the heresies and immorality being taught and practiced by those outside of North America as well.

guys, look, at one time, the Church in England was Orthodox and in communion with the Church. Not anymore

Regardless of the details, the most important point is that she is out of communion with the Church.

So, why not just come back into communion?


The comment was that they were not Christian. That is a very extreme statement, and I think would be difficult to justify.

--------------------

As far as returning to communion with the Orthodox Church - I am sure many people have different reasons, but when looking at church bodies, there are probably a few particular things to consider.

One is simply that bodies like that have a ton of inertia - I think it could be something that takes a dozen years, or a generation, in the life of a parish. I know Anglican parishes that might be good candidates for such a reunion. But usually for something like that to happen the parish has to come to a place where they are being forced to make a decision. And then to get everyone, or a large number, to agree to that sort of major change in affiliation is a major undertaking and requires a profound trust by individuals in the ability of the parish to undertake that kind of discernment process, and trust in the new affiliate too.

As far as that goes, I would say the OC has not always been helpful in making it clear how that kind of process might work. There seems to be a lot of obscurity around what might be asked of parishes, which makes it hard to make people have that trust. And I think there is a widespread perception among Anglicans that the OC is not always honest and straightforward in its dealings with such parishes. I have heard the term bait and switch more than once.

As for parishes that would be less likely to make such a change of affiliation, but not totally unlikely to do so: I would say probably the biggest issue is whether they are convinced that the OC really represents the institutional church in the exclusive way it claims. Many Anglicans might be willing to accept the idea that the OC is unwilling to make statements about other ecclesiastical bodies, along the lines of the oft repeated we know where the Church is but not where it is not type. But those kinds of statements tend to be belied by discussions like this one, and many are not willing to go so far.

I suspect that related to that is what seems a rather modern individualistic tendency to want to treat such groups as a bunch of individual converts rather than an institutional body, or even as a lost bit of the church (through historical circumstance and distance) that is now looking to reintegrate. This does not seem to be very in line with the way such bodies would have been treated, say, 500 years ago if such a reunification would have been proposed - people did not tend to think individualistically n a way that would allow that, and so people find it hard to take as THE Orthodox approach.

I think many feel that the tenor of modern and popular Orthodox sources on the history of the relationship between Eastern and Western theology is simply historically inaccurate and even revisionist, and that does not engender trust. It is that kind of thing that tends to give rise to feelings that the OC is ultimately parochial rather than universal. And historical revisionism does not engender trust, ever.

I suspect that these things all give rise to further questions about how much the OC has in fact kept the same teachings as of old, which is a major part of their claim toauthority. And many people in my experience have their own issues with other particular teachings on this score - usury is one that always bothers me (though it is not such a big deal really, it is just the only example that comes to mind.). If things seem hunky dory on the big things the little ones do not matter so much; when they seem suspicious to people each one of the little ones nags. These are the kind of doubts that make it seem a lot simpler to move to one of the other Anglican bodies, or even to Rome.
 
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Crandaddy

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We haven't forgotten that, we are very much aware that the Anglican communion exists outside of North America, and very much aware of the heresies and immorality being taught and practiced by those outside of North America as well.

guys, look, at one time, the Church in England was Orthodox and in communion with the Church. Not anymore

Regardless of the details, the most important point is that she is out of communion with the Church.

So, why not just come back into communion?

Come "back" into communion? Why? What do you have that makes you so important that we should come groveling to you in order to seek your "re"-admittance--and completely dissolve our Anglican heritage in the process?

We have bishops, priests, and deacons. We have sacraments. We have Traditional patrimony. We are not heretics. We carry on as best we can. What else do you have to offer that we could possibly want? Official card-carrying privileges of the Club? Lessons in learning how to look at all other "Christians" by looking down one's nose at them?

Spare me...
 
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Crandaddy

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And the Anglican Communion as a whole has not apostatized from Christianity. Perhaps some parts of it are so far gone that they can no longer meaningfully be called "Christian" in any remotely orthodox sense (uber-heretics like Spong, for example), but certainly not the Communion as a whole. There are still very good and orthodox Anglicans in the Communion.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Anglican Communion as a whole has not apostatized from Christianity. Perhaps some parts of it are so far gone that they can no longer meaningfully be called "Christian" in any remotely orthodox sense (uber-heretics like Spong, for example), but certainly not the Communion as a whole. There are still very good and orthodox Anglicans in the Communion.

Intense...although I do think it's interesting to see the ways things intersect when it comes to parts of the Anglican world which have seemed more faithful than others. There was one ministry that may be helpful for you in your studies - known as Khanya | Khanya e isoe ho Molimo holimo - an Orthodox ministry that has spoken much on working with the Anglican Church.

Out of all within the Anglican Church, those I support the most tend to be those within the African side of things when it comes to their stance against homosexuality as well as activism in the world..

Peter Akinola is amazing...
 
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