Orthodox view on Marriage, submission, roles, and family

Constantine the Sinner

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Christ said those who would be first, must serve. Christ is God almighty, and he served. So the husband is the authority, but if he does not serve his wife, he is not Christlike. And if the wife does not obey her husband, she is not Christlike. Marriage is strictly a path to salvation through obedience to God, and as long as it is treated as such, it is blessed, but the moment it becomes about "compromise" between the wills of two humans, it is cursed.
 
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Constantine the Sinner

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That makes sense, but I could you give me an example of a real life situation? My priest told us to follow the model you described and he discussed the whole submission thing where I am supposed to submit to my husband and he is supposed to put me before him and take care of me like Christ takes care of us, but I still don't know exactly what he meant we should do in our marriage about that.
It means your husband should sacrifice his personal needs and desires for your happiness, and should go out of his way to do things that show his love for you. The husband is head as in he decides what is best for you as one flesh, and you ought to obey him here; if he is wrong and just being selfish, then you are still blessed for your obedience, though the husband is not necessarily good in the eyes of God.
 
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Constantine the Sinner

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I read some of these posts and I wanted to give some input and explanation.

The issue isn’t whether a woman is suppose to be submissive to her husband, the issue is our perception of it. God clearly states that it is a relationship of roles and not a hierarchy. The problem is that the devil is sowing the seeds of descent and conflict. The devil plants thoughts such as, “Why can’t women be priests?” Do you think God is sexist then? Why did Jesus choose all male disciples? Because it is a relationship of roles and the women that followed Jesus did not look at it as they were lesser.

Now, if your husband says he is uncomfortable with you going out with one of your guy friends, do you take it as he is telling you what to do? Maybe he says it more eloquently like, “I don’t want you going out with that guy.” Are you going to take it like he is telling you what to do and fight him on it? Or are you going to respect him and submit to his request?

Now look at it from the other side. If your husband wants to go out with his guy friends to the strip club and you tell him, “The hell you are.” Should the husband act like his wife is telling him what to do, being controlling, and fight with his wife? Or should the husband love his wife and honor her request?

In both situations, can you see how the devil could get the husband and wife to start lying to each other - getting them to justify being deceitful about where they are going.

I can’t list every scenario in every relationship, but the point is that we need to understand the difference between the “letter of the law” and the “spirit of the law”.

Do you go to church and pray demanding and arguing with God? Or do you go to church and pray being humble and still loving God even if He does not give you what you want?

Are you equal with God or is God bringing you (leading you) up to his level (deification)? Hmmm… didn’t Lucifer fall because he had the wrong attitude?

Jesus humbled Himself being a servant to the people He loves. So, a husband should do the same in relation to his wife. The people that love Jesus submit and follow Him. So, a wife should do the same in relation to her husband. Obviously, we are not perfect like Jesus so there are exceptions to the rules. If your husband is leading you to sell illegal drugs, by all means, say no. And if there is still an issue, bring it to the church and your priest.

-David
No Orthodox married person should be going out alone with a member of the opposite sex, period, unless it's family. And as for strip clubs...I don't think I need to even touch that.
 
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All4Christ

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the moment it becomes about "compromise" between the wills of two humans, it is cursed.
This isn't clear to me. Many times, a husband and wife will discuss problems and concerns. Even when a wife obeys her husband, and a husband loves his wife and becomes like a servant to her, they often communicate and discuss matters - and many times a compromise may happen. Do you consider that to be wrong?

There is a difference between an authoritarian and dictatorial marriage - or perhaps for clarification - an autocratic vs participatory marriage.

Our priest definitely didn't advocate a dictatorial or autocratic marriage in our premarital classes. He did, however, instruct us to communicate and both value eachother's opinions.
 
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Constantine the Sinner

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This isn't clear to me. Many times, a husband and wife will discuss problems and concerns. Even when a wife obeys her husband, and a husband loves his wife and becomes like a servant to her, they often communicate and discuss matters - and many times a compromise may happen. Do you consider that to be wrong?

There is a difference between an authoritarian and dictatorial marriage - or perhaps for clarification - an autocratic vs participatory marriage.

Our priest definitely didn't advocate a dictatorial or autocratic marriage in our premarital classes. He did, however, instruct us to communicate and both value eachother's opinions.
My understanding of Orthodoxy is that doing anything of your will, rather than God's, is a sin, full stop. If you are perfect, which I doubt any of us is, all people are dictators to you. You don't ask anythings owed, when asked to go a mile you go two, when slapped, don't just bear it, but offer your other cheek; if someone takes your shirt, give him your coat too. We are called to do this with everyone, that is true obedience to God; but we are weak and prideful, yet God gives us marriage as a holy mystery to make it both easier and joyous. This applies to both husband and wife, each should unconditionally serve, not seek personal will. The husband is the authority, but if he acts in God's will, he will also obey his wife in everything, even if she shouldn't be telling him what to do. And if he tells her what to do, it should only be to effect God's will, and if she says no, he should unconditionally concede in love.

Children make this more complicated, but even then the premise of obedience to God's will is what it is really all about, as Abraham knew.
 
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All4Christ

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Certainly if it is to gain your own will at the expense of the other, that is a problem. Sometimes, however, it is to make a decision that isn't specific to one person's desires, but rather decisions that need to be made for the well-being of the marriage and our lives.

One of my favorite explanations that I found that explains it to me is from St. John Chrysostom. Perhaps this may be what you are referencing? I found these writings after I started this thread. (In fact, it is two writings from him that seem to help give a larger picture.)

The first is the most common of the two writings. The second is a very interesting counterpart to the first.
Homily on Marriage
http://stgeorgekeene.org/docs/REFLECTIONS-ON-MARRIAGE.pdf

My understanding of Orthodoxy is that doing anything of your will, rather than God's, is a sin, full stop. If you are perfect, which I doubt any of us is, all people are dictators to you. You don't ask anythings owed, when asked to go a mile you go two, when slapped, don't just bear it, but offer your other cheek; if someone takes your shirt, give him your coat too. We are called to do this with everyone, that is true obedience to God; but we are weak and prideful, yet God gives us marriage as a holy mystery to make it both easier and joyous. This applies to both husband and wife, each should unconditionally serve, not seek personal will. The husband is the authority, but if he acts in God's will, he will also obey his wife in everything, even if she shouldn't be telling him what to do. And if he tells her what to do, it should only be to effect God's will, and if she says no, he should unconditionally concede in love.

Children make this more complicated, but even then the premise of obedience to God's will is what it is really all about, as Abraham knew.
 
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Constantine the Sinner

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Certainly if it is to gain your own will at the expense of the other, that is a problem. Sometimes, however, it is to make a decision that isn't specific to one person's desires, but rather decisions that need to be made for the well-being of the marriage and our lives.

One of my favorite explanations that I found that explains it to me is from St. John Chrysostom. Perhaps this may be what you are referencing? I found these writings after I started this thread. (In fact, it is two writings from him that seem to help give a larger picture.)

The first is the most common of the two writings. The second is a very interesting counterpart to the first.
Homily on Marriage
http://stgeorgekeene.org/docs/REFLECTIONS-ON-MARRIAGE.pdf

I wasn't referencing those specifically, but they do convey exactly what I was given to understand, and, predictably, Saint John Chrysostom says it much more eloquently and lucidly than I or most others could.
 
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All4Christ

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I wasn't referencing those specifically, but they do convey exactly what I was given to understand, and, predictably, Saint John Chrysostom says it much more eloquently and lucidly than I or most others could.
I really appreciate the balance between the two writings, as it explains a good understanding of how it is not a dictatorship, but a relationship of love and sacrifice - of service and of support for each other. The "roles" do not exclude those attributes from either the husband or the wife when a marriage is healthy and following the Lord.
 
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Josiah14

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We're not Protestants. There certainly is a "Traditionalist" stream that thinks we should be quiverfull with no work outside the home for the wife, but this is not at all obligatory or truly traditional. We all have our own vocations and don't need to submit to the control of others, though we do submit to one another in love and are willing to lay down our lives for each other.

Almost nothing more should need to be said beyond this.

The role of each in the family is to submit to the other in love, even to the point of martyrdom. It's no different than our calling to each and every person we meet in the world, but we are called to give our first and primary considerations to the family.

To unpack this a little, you are free to do anything admissible within the Christian lifestyle with the approval of your spiritual father, granted your own house is in order, first. If the house is a wreck and the children (whether their well-being or upbringing/education in Orthodox values) are neglected because the husband and wife are both away all day working to secure an income, but the family could live on one income, then somebody needs to give up their pursuit of a career and focus more on the domestic family life. Because the maternal instinct is an aid in this, normally it's the wife that stays home, but there are justifications for it to rather be the husband that stays home, especially in these modern times.

Most often, the natural order is for the husband to be 'head of the household' not in the sense of holding a dictator-like authority over the family, but in that the husband is meant to be a 'head by example', with the responsibility to be the one who leads the domestic prayer life through, himself, praying; leads the family to care for the house by he, himself, being the first to voluntarily perform tasks and chores he notices need to be done around the house, etc. Children naturally follow the example of their parents, but especially that of their father - the attitude and habits of the father will set the tone for the family lifestyle. It is this way because this is the order ordained by God. Because of our fallen nature, it can sometimes be better for the wife or an older sibling (such as an 18 y/o son) to fulfill the role as head of the household in some (or all) areas where the husband is failing in his duties - but this is considered the exception, not the norm.

Summary: The husband is called to be the 'head' through leading by example (as Christ did by voluntarily accepting Crucifixion). When the husband fails to answer this calling, then it falls on other members of the family to accept extra responsibility to be a type of Christ leading the family towards heaven by personal example and praxis.

As always, if I have said anything here that is not in line with the Orthodox Teaching, pray for me and publicly correct me so that I don't lead others astray.
 
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OrthodoxDavid

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“He had already laid down beforehand for man and wife, the ground and provision of their love, assigning to each their proper place, to the one that of authority and forethought, to the other that of submission.”

On Marriage and Family Life
By St John Chrysostom
Homily XX. Ephesians 5:22-24
Kindle location 266 (may vary by device/version)​

Women, don’t let the devil tell you “it is wrong”, “it is not equal”, or any other negative emotions or thoughts. The one with authority has more responsibility. If that authority is abused, will he not be held accountable by God who has authority over him?

I think the biggest wedge in relationships has been feminism in Christianity; especially in the west. Instead of following the Theotokos, Jesus, etc. women are being conditioned to follow the teachings of the goddess Ishtar:

The Feminist Mistake

The Feminist Mistake: The Radical Impact of Feminism on Church and Culture
By Mary A. Kassian
p. 212​

Like I said in my previous post in this discussion, the problem is perception [and attitude]. God knows what is best for us more than we know what is best for us. I struggle with this myself in some areas.

The best answer I found to the question of what it means to be submissive to a husband is this:

6 Ways to Become a Submissive & Respectful Wife

I ask myself, “What does my submission to the Lord look like?”
  1. I ask Him what He wants me to do. After He tells me, obedience is the submissive way.
  2. I trust Him with scary decisions, that He knows my heart’s desires, and that He knows what is best. Then, once again, obedience to His will is the submissive way.
  3. I trust Him with small decisions and trust that He cares when I ask.
  4. I lean on Him when I feel drained, confused, or too weak to continue on my own.
  5. I am honest with Him about my mistakes and ask for forgiveness. Then I seek wisdom from Him on how I can fix it.
  6. I try to bring Him honor and glory with my actions and words.
  7. I try to honor him with my body and my sexuality.
Now, just as the scripture says, let’s apply these things to my husband.
  1. I ask him what he needs from me – that day or bigger picture. “Is there anything you would like me to get done around the house today?” “How can I be a better wife for you?” “How are we doing?” “What would you like to do today?”
  2. I trust him with big-decision situations. If I disagree with him, I will lovingly and respectfully share my concerns, trust that he hears them, and trust that he is taking them into consideration because of his love for me and our family. After he decides what is best, I respect his decision by supporting him in it. If it goes wrong, I will not gloat or belittle him, but continue to show him respect and give him encouragement and, most importantly, grace.
  3. If he is asks me, “How are you?” or “What’s the matter?” I will answer honestly in a respectful way. If he has upset me, I will answer without casting blame or condemnation for something he has done wrong, but share openly how I feel. I will confide in him so that our conversations can be real, authentic, and relationship building.
  4. I will let him know when I need him. I will ask him for help and swallow my pride. Men need to feel needed. I will honor my husband by asking him to step in and be my knight in shining armor.
  5. I will admit my mistakes and genuinely ask him for his forgiveness. I will honor him by accepting it and promising him that I will work on that part of my flesh.
  6. When I speak of my husband to others, it will be words of respect and admiration. My words will honor my husband in that they will speak life over him to others so that they have no reason to look at him in a negative light. I will speak of his good qualities or hold my tongue. I will not give into temptation when surrounded by other women complaining about their husbands. I have realized this is incredibly important, but not a commonly shared belief in the world. As a wife, you will see his deep-rooted character flaws, and he will see yours. Just because those truths are found does not give you permission to speak of them publicly. If you need to vent, I encourage you to go to the Lord before anybody else. He is an amazing listener. There have been countless days where He has completely satisfied my need to talk about some struggle in my marriage.
  7. I put effort into my appearance out of love and respect for my husband. I dress in a beautiful, modest way when in public. I dress sexy for him at home. I show interest in sex with my husband, and even initiate intimacy. I try to keep my eyes and thoughts for him and him alone.

I know if I was treated in such a way by my wife, there would be almost nothing I wouldn’t do for her and I would reciprocate the treatment.

-David
 
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rusmeister

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That's all fine, David, but I think men need to take it a step further and hold that there would be nothing (moral) we wouldn't do for our wives regardless of whether they fulfill the Christian ideal as recommended to them or not. I would remove the "if" clause from your last sentence.
 
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All4Christ

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That's all fine, David, but I think men need to take it a step further and hold that there would be nothing (moral) we wouldn't do for our wives regardless of whether they fulfill the Christian ideal as recommended to them or not. I would remove the "if" clause from your last sentence.

Same goes for women :) (following what we are supposed to do for our spouse)
 
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anna ~ grace

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Honestly, trying to do my best to honor, please, submit to, and obey my husband is a huge part of my spiritual life. Massive. It's not something that most Protestants seem to understand at all. But as my salvation and conformity to the image of Christ is linked to what I do in this life, I don't see how that wouldn't include how I respond to and live with the man given to me by Christ to be my head, and friend. It's not easy, and there are days when I just nose-dive and royally mess up on this front. But it's a continuing journey, and I'd like to do my part.
 
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rusmeister

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We're not Protestants. There certainly is a "Traditionalist" stream that thinks we should be quiverfull with no work outside the home for the wife, but this is not at all obligatory or truly traditional. We all have our own vocations and don't need to submit to the control of others, though we do submit to one another in love and are willing to lay down our lives for each other.

We're not feminists. There certainly is a "Progressive" stream that thinks that there should be no distinction between men and women in any aspect of life, and that the Pauline injunctions for the men to love self-sacrificially and women to submit should be indifferently applied to both sexes, that Paul should have just come out and said, "Everybody love and submit to each other, women and men are ultimately interchangeable", though they don't follow the thinking through and say that God messed up in making two sexes, He should have just made one.

There is this conception you seem to hold that being on the receiving end of submission means "controlling" the submitting party.

You said "The thing is, if, at the end of the line, you have, at some point, an obligation for the woman to obey the man, you need a means of control. That is simply not healthy. You need the marriage to be about communication, cooperation, and kindness, not having a locus of control at the end of the line, because control is an extremely unhealthy relationship dynamic."

You set up a dichotomy here that we who do believe in Tradition, and do think that there is something distinctive in the Scriptural words that address one specific injunction to men, and a slightly different one, with a different emphasis, to women, do not accept. We think being the head does NOT mean "controlling" a wife any more than our own submission to Christ as the Head means that He "controls" us.

And I think I will look in vain among the fathers to find them talking about marriage being about communication and cooperation as such, or about healthy or unhealthy "relationship dynmics", although submission is cooperation, and generally healthy. Obedience at its root is a positive virtue. Sure, it might be abused, obeying commands to do evil is wrong. But you might as well rail against monastics submitting to elders and doing obedience, because obedience is central to our Faith.

It is the rejection of hierarchy that is rebellion, either in the Church, or in the family, "the little Church". In both, the prescription is love and obedience, with one being more clearly prescribed to the man as something he, generally speaking, has a harder time with, and the other prescribed to the woman as something she generally has a harder time with. Christ, as the Head and Groom of the Church, has no problem with love, but WE, as part of the Church, the bride, definitely have a problem with obedience, as our sin demonstrates. This is mirrored in the home and the Church. Yes, we are all equal before the Lord, but egalitarianism is not part of our Faith, not what we are supposed to be concerned with. We are supposed to leave that to God and focus on seeing everyone else as more important than we are.

We have all come into the Church infected with the mind of the world, which is opposed to the Church. This results in both extreme Traditionalists declaring that all men should have beards, all women ankle-length skirts, all fasting rules should be impeccably carried out, etc, and extreme Liberals saying that we can ignore all injunctions and do,whatever we want as long as we love (something we do poorly or not at all, and so need those injunctions), that the Church should mirror Western civilization. But what we want to do is to acquire the mind of the Church, and we can, at least to a degree, over time, if we submit and lay aside our own political and social prejudices, and ask what has always been taught, and how we need to conform ourselves to that, rather than conform the teachings to our tastes.
 
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All4Christ

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We're not feminists. There certainly is a "Progressive" stream that thinks that there should be no distinction between men and women in any aspect of life, and that the Pauline injunctions for the men to love self-sacrificially and women to submit should be indifferently applied to both sexes, that Paul should have just come out and said, "Everybody love and submit to each other, women and men are ultimately interchangeable", though they don't follow the thinking through and say that God messed up in making two sexes, He should have just made one.

There is this conception you seem to hold that being on the receiving end of submission means "controlling" the submitting party.

You said "The thing is, if, at the end of the line, you have, at some point, an obligation for the woman to obey the man, you need a means of control. That is simply not healthy. You need the marriage to be about communication, cooperation, and kindness, not having a locus of control at the end of the line, because control is an extremely unhealthy relationship dynamic."

You set up a dichotomy here that we who do believe in Tradition, and do think that there is something distinctive in the Scriptural words that address one specific injunction to men, and a slightly different one, with a different emphasis, to women, do not accept. We think being the head does NOT mean "controlling" a wife any more than our own submission to Christ as the Head means that He "controls" us.

And I think I will look in vain among the fathers to find them talking about marriage being about communication and cooperation as such, or about healthy or unhealthy "relationship dynmics", although submission is cooperation, and generally healthy. Obedience at its root is a positive virtue. Sure, it might be abused, obeying commands to do evil is wrong. But you might as well rail against monastics submitting to elders and doing obedience, because obedience is central to our Faith.

It is the rejection of hierarchy that is rebellion, either in the Church, or in the family, "the little Church". In both, the prescription is love and obedience, with one being more clearly prescribed to the man as something he, generally speaking, has a harder time with, and the other prescribed to the woman as something she generally has a harder time with. Christ, as the Head and Groom of the Church, has no problem with love, but WE, as part of the Church, the bride, definitely have a problem with obedience, as our sin demonstrates. This is mirrored in the home and the Church. Yes, we are all equal before the Lord, but egalitarianism is not part of our Faith, not what we are supposed to be concerned with. We are supposed to leave that to God and focus on seeing everyone else as more important than we are.

We have all come into the Church infected with the mind of the world, which is opposed to the Church. This results in both extreme Traditionalists declaring that all men should have beards, all women ankle-length skirts, all fasting rules should be impeccably carried out, etc, and extreme Liberals saying that we can ignore all injunctions and do,whatever we want as long as we love (something we do poorly or not at all, and so need those injunctions), that the Church should mirror Western civilization. But what we want to do is to acquire the mind of the Church, and we can, at least to a degree, over time, if we submit and lay aside our own political and social prejudices, and ask what has always been taught, and how we need to conform ourselves to that, rather than conform the teachings to our tastes.
What does a practical application of submission look like in your opinion? Could you describe a general pattern in every day life? I consider myself to submit to my husband, but normally we end up working naturally together to come to a conclusion. At times, I bite my tongue and follow his lead even when I strongly disagree, but most of the time we act as a team - with the understanding that I will follow his lead should we not come to a mutual decision. Sometimes his lead is to put his own desires to the side and do what I suggest as well. It ends up being us working together and putting eachother before ourselves (though neither of us are perfect. 3 years into our marriage - we are still working out the best ways to do things :))

All that said, it seems to work pretty well for us. I'm curious as to your opinion of what is necessary for a woman to be like the Church in the relationship with her husband (and likewise a husband in everyday life).

St. John Chrysostom taught a model of obedience and servant leadership. Yet he also considered there to be an element of obedience to eachother. The husband has an emphasis on being the lead, and the wife has an emphasis of being obedient, but it isn't like a General in an army giving orders, and a soldier obeying them.

Here is a portion of one of his writings hat I quoted above:

When we speak of the wife obeying the husband, we normally think of obedience in military or political terms: the husband giving orders and the wife obeying them. But while this type of obedience may be appropriate in the army, it is ridiculous in the intimate relationship of marriage. The obedient wife does not wait for orders. Rather, she tries to discern her husband’s needs and feelings, and responds in love. When she sees her husband is weary, she soothes him; when he is ill, she nurses and comforts him; when he is happy and elated, she shares his joy.

Yet such obedience should not be confined to the wife. The husband should be obedient in the same way. When she is weary, he should relieve her of her work; when she is sad, he should cherish her, holding her gently in his arms; when she is filled with good cheer, he should also share her good cheer. Thus a good marriage is not a matter of one partner obeying the other, but of both partners obeying each other.

Servant leadership often puts the other person first, which in turn looks like obedience to their needs...not so much in the leadership of the family (though leaders sometimes cede to the opinions of others when they recognize that the other knows more or is better in that area), but in serving eachother before ourselves. St John's other writing on marriage explains the submission part.
 
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Well, submit doesn't mean "mindlessly obey" (I get an impression that some think that). Teamwork seems fine most of the time. Submission would only come into play when you really disagree and are pulling in different directions, and can't come to agreement. Then, you either submit, or you don't.

In my marriage of going on 26 years, I am the chief dishwasher and trash-taker-outer. But I don't cook or iron well at all. Living in Russia, I frequently have to trust that my wife knows what's going on. But if we really disagree, either she submits - or she doesn't. Do I love her enough, or do I lean towards being a selfish pig? A lot of times, it's the latter, and I have to force myself to deny myself and what I want. We have give-and-take. But I figure that as long as I focus on what I can do (love, and do things out of love when I don't "feel like it"), then God will bless my efforts. When she does her part, it's generally great.

Neither of us do it perfectly; ie, as we should, and the negative comes from those failures.
 
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gzt

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No Orthodox married person should be going out alone with a member of the opposite sex, period, unless it's family. And as for strip clubs...I don't think I need to even touch that.
Soooo.... are you married?
 
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Cappadocious

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Constantine the Sinner

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There is a right-wing group marching against your view, they are having their march in seattle I hear:

March Against Sharia -- March for Human Rights
Why are you trying to shoehorn politics into my post? I never mentioned anything juridical, neither did I mention anything about single persons dating. Since nothing in my post has anything to do with a wordly agenda, I'd appreciate it if you left me out of yours.
 
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