Orthodox view on Marriage, submission, roles, and family

[Cappadocious]

Why are you trying to shoehorn politics into my post?

We are political animals, after all.

 

[archer75]

I've read through this old-ish thread, and I have to say, I still have no idea how any of this is supposed to work in practical terms. I suppose it's my fault. I'm posting this, more or less, in fellowship and understanding with anyone else who should ever read over this thread and end up as confused as they were.

I just don't understand how the simplest things are imagined to work. The husband is the "head," but is to "direct things" for the benefit of the wife. But what if she (emotionally) violently resists what's "good for her"? Then is the husband supposed to break her mind? I'm sure everyone will say no, that patience is required, etc. A lifetime of patience with no change, then? What about the children, if there are children, who need their mother to move in a different direction but also need her not to be broken?

My confusion is related to something gzt said, I think - if there's no mechanism to "enforce" this, then what are even even talking about? And it seems that nearly any imaginable mechanism for enforcement is obviously evil.

No one is required to explain anything to me, of course. Just a post in confusion.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I wish I could answer but I have a whole different set of challenges. My husband came with the understanding of "headship/submission" prevalent in some Protestant circles - the one that can't fathom the verse "submit to one another".

We also have different ways of determinating what is "best". Sometimes he is right and I AM opposed (not so much by his decision of what is right but how he decides to carry it out). And sometimes I'm right and that hasn't always gone well either. Though Orthodoxy has changed me quite a bit and what I have discovered is that - even being one-sided, it works MUCH better with Orthodox principles somewhere in the mix.

Not that everything is perfect. But it is unbelievably better than it was.

 

[All4Christ]

FWIW, I’m still not 100% how everything is supposed to work with the head of the house concept, despite everything I’ve read and heard. Main thing I know is that we are to work out our salvation together and that we are to love and respect each other. It isn’t supposed to be a dictatorship (at least according to St John Chrysostom), but we still are to respect / submit to our husbands - he is to love us unconditionally. Father said in our marriage sermon (very interesting considering my Protestant family’s thoughts on the matter) - you (to me), submit. You (to him) die. Still working it all out, but we try to love each other, work together to build each other up, and do what is best for each other. If it comes down to it, I’ll follow what he says assuming it isn’t against God’s commandments, but he won’t lord it over me. Honestly, most of the time, we just work together. After all, we still have that verse about submitting one to another. It does help with balance.

 

[archer75]

Reasonable responses, thank you. I still admit to a lot of confusion - and even though my post took one perspective, I also wonder - what does "submission" look like if your husband is addicted to mail-in sweepstakes? Or some other such thing that isnit illegal or exactly abusive but is clearly not appropriate "head" behavior.

I guess my question is: why are such teachings held up (often, not always) as rhe perfect road when they so often seem not to apply or not to have any application that doesn't cause some other obvious sin?

 

[~Anastasia~]

Reasonable responses, thank you. I still admit to a lot of confusion - and even though my post took one perspective, I also wonder - what does "submission" look like if your husband is addicted to mail-in sweepstakes? Or some other such thing that isnit illegal or exactly abusive but is clearly not appropriate "head" behavior.

I guess my question is: why are such teachings held up (often, not always) as rhe perfect road when they so often seem not to apply or not to have any application that doesn't cause some other obvious sin?

That is my challenge, in a sense.

I don't want to go into details out of respect for my husband's privacy, but that's what I meant by "being right". (And not saying that I'm right he should be Orthodox, but much more easily discerned things.)

I have learned (and it was more like recognizing the obvious) that I can't nag or demand him to do what's right. I can gently suggest, I can occasionally make an observation or explain my reason, if appropriate I can offer help, I can always pray for him, I can support, I can try in some cases to provide an example. And in some cases, years go by and nothing changes. So I'm not saying I have the answer. But other times the results are good and we learn how to work together.

Knowing the answers would be of great benefit to everyone, I think. I wish I did.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Reasonable responses, thank you. I still admit to a lot of confusion - and even though my post took one perspective, I also wonder - what does "submission" look like if your husband is addicted to mail-in sweepstakes? Or some other such thing that isnit illegal or exactly abusive but is clearly not appropriate "head" behavior.

I guess my question is: why are such teachings held up (often, not always) as rhe perfect road when they so often seem not to apply or not to have any application that doesn't cause some other obvious sin?

As to the perfect part ... I guess it depends what you mean exactly by "such teachings"? If you mean what we get from Scripture, then of course it IS perfect, even if we struggle to apply it.

 

[archer75]

As to the perfect part ... I guess it depends what you mean exactly by "such teachings"? If you mean what we get from Scripture, then of course it IS perfect, even if we struggle to apply it.

I guess I mean "whatever understanding of Scripture is locally held up as correct, which in TAW is the EO understanding." The difficulty of application doesn't bug me. It's knowing even what it is that should be applied. I know - ask your priest. But a shocked or bewildered look from an overworked parish priest just doesn't seem to be a local expression of a perfect teaching / traditional understanding of a teaching.

So where DO you look for assistance in understanding even how this teaching fits a given situation? A priest or monastic losing their composure is no fun for anyone.

Submit - what does that involve?
Be the head - what does that involve?

The personal experiences shared here are valuable, of course. But they don't sound - to a third party, at least - qualitatively different from a non-Christian marriage with difficulties where the parties try to make things work. So again, I'm left wondering what anything means. I recognize that this is my fault, I just wish I could correct it.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think something to consider is that marriage is not a closed system. God is at work with both husband and wife for their salvation. so if one spouse refuses what is proper to their role, the proper response is to pray, endure, and trust God is at work in the other (unless there is adultery or abuse of course).

 

[~Anastasia~]

I guess I mean "whatever understanding of Scripture is locally held up as correct, which in TAW is the EO understanding." The difficulty of application doesn't bug me. It's knowing even what it is that should be applied. I know - ask your priest. But a shocked or bewildered look from an overworked parish priest just doesn't seem to be a local expression of a perfect teaching / traditional understanding of a teaching.

So where DO you look for assistance in understanding even how this teaching fits a given situation? A priest or monastic losing their composure is no fun for anyone.

Submit - what does that involve?
Be the head - what does that involve?

The personal experiences shared here are valuable, of course. But they don't sound - to a third party, at least - qualitatively different from a non-Christian marriage with difficulties where the parties try to make things work. So again, I'm left wondering what anything means. I recognize that this is my fault, I just wish I could correct it.

It might vary for different people, but I do ask my priest when I have to. He's married (though perhaps experiences of monastics under obedience and within structure might mean they could answer as well). But maybe not every priest is so suited? Usually though, I think about asking, and the voices in my mental conversation point out where I might need to adjust my thinking, and the meeting with the priest never happens.

It can work very similarly in a secular marriage. The main difference I found coming into Orthodoxy, though, has been for me the central point that made it all make sense in my mind and changed my approach and our marriage. And that was the definition I was given for "good" along with the instructions that in marriage, the ideal is that both submit their own desires in favor of seeking the best good of the other. And that "good" is their salvation. While we can't "save" anyone, and we might even be ignorant of how God is working in them, if we consider all our words and actions in light of seeking salvation for the other person - that changes everything. Or at least it did for me. It not only changes what we might do or say, but softens our heart and makes the other person infinitely valuable and worthy of care, just as they are to God.

I hope that makes sense?

 

[All4Christ]

Personally, I don’t believe being the head means that you are the sole decision maker or that the woman is essentially someone who cannot have any thinking or suggestions. Many times, if not most, it will just be both working together to put each other first - and God first over all else. As St John Chrysostom said - it is not a dictatorship. Father said that in an ideal marriage, it will often be both submitting to each other, despite the husband being the head and the woman submitting to him.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Personally, I don’t believe being the head means that you are the sole decision maker or that the woman is essentially someone who cannot have any thinking or suggestions. Many times, if not most, it will just be both working together to put each other first - and God first over all else. As St John Chrysostom said - it is not a dictatorship.

Right.

It is reasonable to expect the wife might just as easily have certain gifts, insight, knowledge, etc. that means in some things, she may be the better one to make a certain decision.

Assuming this can't be true is probably a recipe for disaster in many marriages.

My husband and I complement each other in many things. We do not have the same expertise as the other. Thankfully he and I tend to recognize this, but it took us a while.

 

[All4Christ]

Right.

It is reasonable to expect the wife might just as easily have certaibs gifts, insight, knowledge, etc. that means in some things, she may be the better one to make a certain decision.

Assuming this can't be true is probably a recipe for disaster in many marriages.

My husband and I complement each other in many things. We do not have the same expertise as the other. Thankfully he and I tend to recognize this, but it took us a while.

Agreed. It’s also not always the woman being the person who cooks, stays home, does all the house work herself, etc. . Some Protestant Churches teach that - but Orthodoxy doesn’t insist on that from what I’ve seen.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Agreed. It’s also not always the woman being the person who cooks, stays home, does all the house work herself, etc. . Some Protestant Churches teach that - but Orthodoxy doesn’t insist on that from what I’ve seen.

That too.

My husband is actually willing to do some things (not clean the cat litter box though lol) ... but sometimes it drives me a little crazy because I would do things differently. Very differently, lol. I try to keep silent over those things though, but when it seems a matter of food safety, my concern overcomes prudence.

 

[All4Christ]

That too.

My husband is actually willing to do some things (not clean the cat litter box though lol) ... but sometimes it drives me a little crazy because I would do things differently. Very differently, lol. I try to keep silent over those things though, but when it seems a matter of food safety, my concern overcomes prudence.

We tend to be the opposite. We both have some areas that we have strong opinions on which tend to be different areas. For example, I tend to be organized with knowing where things are, but they aren’t perfectly neat. He likes them all in their place away out of site. I hate reusing silverware again, such as using a spoon for honey, putting it in with cream and coffee and reusing he spoon with honey before cleaning it off. He hates shirts being folded in quarters and needs to have it folded like they do at stores. That said, he prefers to do his own laundry I tried to do it his way but it still wasn’t exactly what he liked!

 

[~Anastasia~]

We tend to be the opposite. We both have some areas that we have strong opinions on which tend to be different areas. For example, I tend to be organized with knowing where things are, but they aren’t perfectly neat. He likes them all in their place away out of site. I hate reusing silverware again, such as using a spoon for honey, putting it in with cream and coffee and reusing he spoon with honey before cleaning it off. He hates shirts being folded in quarters and needs to have it folded like they do at stores. That said, he prefers to do his own laundry I tried to do it his way but it still wasn’t exactly what he liked!

LOL those little pet peeves. I'm absolutely with you that the spoon needs to be clean when going into a food. I actually sometimes deliberately add ingredients in order so something that has to be dipped into gets measured first, while I don't mind pouring another ingredient into that spoon.

My husband does his own laundry for that reason. We were neither of us young when we married and both set in our ways.

Neatness and cleanliness - we clash on opinions but mostly it works by whoever wants something more done doing it. Usually. But I get itchy every time I go in the garage because I want to organize the tools and all those things, but they are 95% his, so I have to bite my tongue (figuratively). Though I've mentioned to him a few times there are better ways, and sometimes show him a picture. It's not ever going to happen unless it's his idea though.

 

[archer75]

Great replies here from @All4Christ and @~Anastasia~, thank you again. And @ArmyMatt.

For the record - while not every question I have is specifically inspired by my marriage - I definitely don't relish the notion of being the "head" of anything. I would prefer to be a specific part of the brain that organizes information, but then, no one asked what I would prefer. I just want to find out what being the head even MEANS.

Sometimes it seems to mean - or seems that in a given instance it could mean - being the one who takes the wider view, maintains mental awareness of all possible (or remotely plausible) outcomes, and tries to serve up moderately palatable immediate "options," any one of which will get the spouse / family to the desired goal.

 

[All4Christ]

I just realized that this thread that I created two wars ago is the 5th top result on Google for “orthodox submission marriage”, lol It’s a good reason to watch what we say if we don’t want others we know IRL to see it!

 

[All4Christ]

Great replies here from @All4Christ and @~Anastasia~, thank you again. And @ArmyMatt.

For the record - while not every question I have is specifically inspired by my marriage - I definitely don't relish the notion of being the "head" of anything. I would prefer to be a specific part of the brain that organizes information, but then, no one asked what I would prefer. I just want to find out what being the head even MEANS.

Sometimes it seems to mean - or seems that in a given instance it could mean - being the one who takes the wider view, maintains mental awareness of all possible (or remotely plausible) outcomes, and tries to serve up moderately palatable immediate "options," any one of which will get the spouse / family to the desired goal.

I understand where you are coming from. I know more of what submission doesn’t mean rather than what it actually means in every day life.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Personally, I don’t believe being the head means that you are the sole decision maker or that the woman is essentially someone who cannot have any thinking or suggestions. Many times, if not most, it will just be both working together to put each other first - and God first over all else. As St John Chrysostom said - it is not a dictatorship. Father said that in an ideal marriage, it will often be both submitting to each other, despite the husband being the head and the woman submitting to him.

head can also mean origin, like how a lake is the head of a river. the headship of the husband derives from Adam being created, and then Eve from Adam. which means it is not a dictatorship.