Orthodox view on Marriage, submission, roles, and family

[All4Christ]

One request - Please only respond if you are Orthodox, Eastern Catholic, OO or serious inquirers / catechumens. I don't want people coming in here and debating the value of 'submission' and whether we should or should not follow that model.

On the marriage forum on CF, there is a thread going on about 'feminism', 'submission' (despite the forum rules), and the appropriate (or inappropriate) gender roles for wives and husbands. I find myself torn in these discussions and have bowed out of any further replies, though I have kept an eye on what is being said. That said, it did make me wonder how we as Orthodox Christians live out our marriages, especially as a wife and future mother.

I've posted before about some struggles my husband and I have with figuring out job situations. So far, we have discussed us both keeping our jobs, as my job is more steady than his, especially since he is working on starting a business. We are starting to plan out when we will have kids, so I have been thinking a lot about our roles in an Orthodox Christian marriage as husband and wife.

In America (and I'm assuming much of the Western world), women are very much a part of the workplace. We often are working for years before getting married, and getting married later in our lives. Many of us establish a life on our own before entering a marriage. It is a difficult transition to switch into being a good Orthodox wife.

As Orthodox Christians, we wives are taught to submit to our husbands. We are taught that we as wives have a great responsibility as mothers. Our husbands are the spiritual heads of our households, and we respect him and submit to him, just as he puts our needs ahead of his.

So how does this translate into real life?

What does submission in an Orthodox Christian marriage mean to you?

Do you feel that we women have a responsibility to be the ones to take care of the home, and to stay home with children? Or does an Orthodox Christian marriage often 'look' like an egalitarian marriage, with the understanding that if something was to occur where an agreement can't be made, that the husband would have the final say?

How can an Orthodox wife fulfill her role, while still working full time? Or should she, if finances allow, decide to stay home with children?

We talk often about the Babas in our parishes and their importance to us, yet the husband is the spiritual head. What does being a 'spiritual head' mean to you as husbands?

My thoughts are a bit disjointed here, as I have been mulling over this for awhile. I appreciate all input from you all. Thanks!

 

[gzt]

We're not Protestants. There certainly is a "Traditionalist" stream that thinks we should be quiverfull with no work outside the home for the wife, but this is not at all obligatory or truly traditional. We all have our own vocations and don't need to submit to the control of others, though we do submit to one another in love and are willing to lay down our lives for each other.

 

[gzt]

I would just note that women in Orthodoxy can be anything except priests and bishops. They're martyrs, confessors, ascetics, equal-to-the-apostles, etc. In Byzantine law, a woman could be queen in her own right without a male consort and succession could pass through women, unlike in the West. What job can't you do if a woman can rule a country? By the way, in some coronation rites empresses received communion in the altar.

 

[Sayfa of Iyesus Kristos]

Hmm, well firstly I have to say that our Lord is above denomination thankfully, so his truths will transcend the groups fashioned out of culture,location etc. Man and Woman should be equals in the household. The children should see teamwork and harmony between their parents. However, the Father should take the disciplinary route and the mother should be the caring embrace of forgiveness. That doesn't mean one makes more money, or makes the decisions. It just means that the faces the parents put on for the kids are the two roles.

I personally think that in public the woman should be slightly submissive to the man(I mean very very slightly). Just enough for people to see that she doesn't emasculate him or cut him off, or bully him etc. Also so people will think he's strong, and therefore if they approach you they have to *deal* with him. This in turn will cause him to feel strong, and like he can be your rock and ally through life's storms. Marriage in my opinion means i'm willing to lay down my life for my wife. How can I sacrifice my life for hers, if she makes me doubt our union and her love for me? However, she is my most treasured thing so how could I ever hurt her?

So at the end of the day, it's always going to come down to teamwork. In Ethiopian villages, it used to be custom for the women to not say anything during elder meetings between the male council. But! The women were expected to make their demands and feelings felt to each of their husbands before the meeting. So in reality most of what was discussed at these meetings was from the women, it's just the men wanted to feel useful

 

[ArmyMatt]

the relationship of husbands and wives is supposed to mirror that of Christ and the Church. yes, wives are to submit to their husbands as the head of the house. husbands are to show and exercise their headship the way Christ does, by serving and sacrificing for the bride. in both cases, the other person is emphasized over the self.

 

[truefiction1]

The husband must be faithful to God even unto death. He must value his matrimonial bond above all other relationships and concerns and strive always to strengthen it in Christ. If he does these things, then he will be spiritual head of the family. Infants do well to be cared for by an unstressed and spiritually healthy mother, if at all possible, because women have the emotional hard wiring and hormones which naturally equip them to be much better suited to properly respond to a baby's developmental/attachment needs.

 

[All4Christ]

the relationship of husbands and wives is supposed to mirror that of Christ and the Church. yes, wives are to submit to their husbands as the head of the house. husbands are to show and exercise their headship the way Christ does, by serving and sacrificing for the bride. in both cases, the other person is emphasized over the self.

This is pretty similar to what our priest told us. In theory it makes sense, but I never really understood how it plays out in real life. Do you have an example of a woman submitting to her husband? Or a husband serving and sacrificing himself for the wife?

We're not Protestants. There certainly is a "Traditionalist" stream that thinks we should be quiverfull with no work outside the home for the wife, but this is not at all obligatory or truly traditional. We all have our own vocations and don't need to submit to the control of others, though we do submit to one another in love and are willing to lay down our lives for each other.

That is reassuring to hear. What you describe seems to be pretty much what my marriage is with my husband.

 

[GoingByzantine]

Too me, the fact that female and male monastics are treated as virtual equals in the East tells me a lot about the role of women in Orthodox society.

 

[All4Christ]

Glad you came over to our forum!

Man and Woman should be equals in the household. The children should see teamwork and harmony between their parents. However, the Father should take the disciplinary route and the mother should be the caring embrace of forgiveness. That doesn't mean one makes more money, or makes the decisions. It just means that the faces the parents put on for the kids are the two roles.

I have a feeling that my husband will automatically take the more disciplinary role, though I'm sure we will need to discuss "how" we discipline kids. I also think I will be taking more of a role of caring for the kids needs at home, etc., purely because of our respective personalities.

I personally think that in public the woman should be slightly submissive to the man(I mean very very slightly). Just enough for people to see that she doesn't emasculate him or cut him off, or bully him etc. Also so people will think he's strong, and therefore if they approach you they have to *deal* with him. This in turn will cause him to feel strong, and like he can be your rock and ally through life's storms. Marriage in my opinion means i'm willing to lay down my life for my wife. How can I sacrifice my life for hers, if she makes me doubt our union and her love for me? However, she is my most treasured thing so how could I ever hurt her?

So at the end of the day, it's always going to come down to teamwork.

Makes sense...I think we tend to fall into that pattern naturally. He tends to take care of things when we need to be strong about something or stand our ground. He's good at doing that.

Thank you for responding!

 

[All4Christ]

The husband must be faithful to God even unto death. He must value his matrimonial bond above all other relationships and concerns and strive always to strengthen it in Christ. If he does these things, then he will be spiritual head of the family.

Infants do well to be cared for by an unstressed and spiritually healthy mother, if at all possible, because women have the emotional hard wiring and hormones which naturally equip them to be much better suited to properly respond to a baby's developmental/attachment needs.

You mentioned "unstressed" here. Are you referring to women not having the stress of both home and outside work responsibilities? I definitely would like to be home with any babies we have instead of sending them to daycare. Therein lies the issue though with a career and taking care of family. You are married, correct? Does your wife stay home with the family?

Many of the women in our parish stay home and homeschool the kids. That's one of the reasons I started thinking through this.

 

[All4Christ]

Too me, the fact that female and male monastics are treated as virtual equals in the East tells me a lot about the role of women in Orthodox society.

That's a beautiful photo. And I agree - I love that in the Orthodox society - women have an important place! Like @gzt said, there are even women saints called Equal to the Apostles, etc.

 

[GoingByzantine]

In terms of day to day life for Eastern women in America, I unfortunately do not have much input, since I am a single man. Apologies...but this is indeed a fascinating topic.

 

[Joseph Hazen]

Wives submit to your husbands, husbands love your wife as Christ loves the Church.

I believe it is the husband's job then to form the 'game-plan' for the family. He does this by asking the wife questions such as 'what is your ideal life' or 'where would you want the family to be in five years.' He should consciously formulate plans to get the family there. The wife, when answering, should take into consideration the family income and feasibility of her ideals. They should work together to reach their family goals, but if the husband has come to the conclusion that a different path is necessary, the wife should submit to the situation. Let me be clear: he should not just give a show of asking what the wife wants or in praying on what is best for the family. In this way they're submitting to each other.

The biggest aspect of 'submission' I think means 'respect.' I read a book once which discussed what happened when men were asked "Would you rather be respected or loved?" Men didn't understand the question. There is no difference between the two for men. So a woman should strive to respect her husband (and a man should strive to be a man worthy of respect). In the same survey women said negative statements about their weight or looks equated in their mind to a man saying "I don't love you anymore." A man should know such things so that his wife always feels secure in his love for her. This too is mutual submission, but in telling men how to tell women they love them, and telling women how to show men they love them. Does that make sense?

(the books were "For Men Only" and "For Women Only" which I would recommend).

 

[gzt]

Eh, I strongly disagree with the idea of a uniquely husbandly veto. And a difference in responsibility for planning and such. There's no reason for that.

 

[truefiction1]

You mentioned "unstressed" here. Are you referring to women not having the stress of both home and outside work responsibilities? I definitely would like to be home with any babies we have instead of sending them to daycare. Therein lies the issue though with a career and taking care of family. You are married, correct? Does your wife stay home with the family?

Many of the women in our parish stay home and homeschool the kids. That's one of the reasons I started thinking through this.

Do women with careers take maternity leave for several months and even up to a year when their babies are delivered? My wife worked part time jobs in between births and afterwards, but not when the kids were infants.

By "unstressed" I mean emotionally well. A mother's job is to help her baby succeed in learning to regulate his troublesome emotions. If the mother is able to regulate her own, then she may succeed in passing this gift to her child, so long as she is available for this role. Quality daycare may be fine for securely attached children, but very young babies do best with a highly attuned primary caregiver: ideally the babies own mother.

 

[truefiction1]

One good book I know of that could shine a bright light on the question of childcare is "Attachment in Psychotherapy" by David Wallin. It's not an easy read, but surely a worthwhile one in my own experience.

 

[Joseph Hazen]

Eh, I strongly disagree with the idea of a uniquely husbandly veto. And a difference in responsibility for planning and such. There's no reason for that.

In my experience there are situations (which arise in every area where people join together for any cause) where there's no consensus but a decision still needs to be made. In such situations, I believe Scripture says the husband should make that decision. How should the husband be the head of the family if he's not in some way directing the course of the family? Truly not attempting to be confrontational, but in what practical or theoretical ways do you see the husband being the head of the wife, if not in some way like this?

 

[gzt]

The thing is, if, at the end of the line, you have, at some point, an obligation for the woman to obey the man, you need a means of control. That is simply not healthy. You need the marriage to be about communication, cooperation, and kindness, not having a locus of control at the end of the line, because control is an extremely unhealthy relationship dynamic.

 

[gzt]

I mean, when the end of marital dispute resolution comes down to a hierarchy - if your disputes go that far - that is an unhealthy dynamic.

 

[Joseph Hazen]

The thing is, if, at the end of the line, you have, at some point, an obligation for the woman to obey the man, you need a means of control. That is simply not healthy. You need the marriage to be about communication, cooperation, and kindness, not having a locus of control at the end of the line, because control is an extremely unhealthy relationship dynamic.

One could argue the same about our relationship with Christ in the Church. In fact many do. One could argue the man is under the woman's control as well, I suppose, seeing as how he may very well (in fact will) have to give up his own desires to see her's done, and quite probably far more often than in the type of situation I am theorizing.

But you still haven't answered my question. How do you practically put into practice these scriptures?