Orthodox Q & A

[Christos Anesti]

deify Mary to a status that she does not have

The Theotokos Mary IS deified by grace. That is the very essence of the Christian message. The power of Christ and the Holy Spirit to deify us. It would be blasphemous to attribute to her the divine essence (or make here a fourth hypostasis of the Trinity) but that prayer isn't doing that. She is only divine by grace and not by nature.

 

[Judson]

I understand there is a sense we are participating, and will participate in the divine nature when we resurected and glorified, but it's important to qualify what it means that we will become God(s).

Obviously the Fathers could not have meant this literally. We cannot become divine in His essence. Also, it's important to maintain our confession as monotheists.

For us to become "Theos" must be categorically different from God being Theos. Theos by definition is eternal, immutable, sovereign, worthy of worship etc. We will never share in these attributes.

 

[Judson]

The Theotokos Mary IS deified by grace. That is the very essence of the Christian message. The power of Christ and the Holy Spirit to deify us. It would be blasphemous to attribute to her the divine essence (or make here a fourth hypostasis of the Trinity) but that prayer isn't doing that. She is only divine by grace and not by nature.

Then why is she being implored to "save us", and not Christ himself? If she is deified by the grace of Christ, then she has receive no more than we, who have been "blessed with every spiritual blessing in Christ" (Eph 1:3) and "seated with him the heavenly realms" (Eph 2:6).

One question, in Orthodox theology, what does "save us" mean?


thanks.

 

[Christos Anesti]

Then why is she being implored to "save us", and not Christ himself?

People save other people all the time. A person is about to be hit with a car and another person pushes them out of the way...etc.. That person just saved the other one. The term "saved" can obviously be used in a variety of manners. That prayer isn't trying to take away the unique manner in which Christ saves us.

 

[Judson]

I see. So, in what sense do Orthodox ask Mary to save them?

 

[Christos Anesti]

We ask her to save us by her prayers. She could pray to God that we would be cured of a diseases or from some other calamity for example.

 

[Judson]

Not to sound contentious, but how does one know that Mary is listening? Does she listen to all prayers?

How does the she answer the prayers?

Why do you not ask the Father directly?

 

[Christos Anesti]

Why do you not ask the Father directly?

God wants us to pray and intercede for one another right? It's perfectly acceptable to ask people (especially the saints) to pray for us. The fact that they are now in heaven doesn't imply that they can no longer pray for us or make it wrong to ask them to do so. They are still part of the Body of Christ united in spirit with us here on earth.

Not to sound contentious, but how does one know that Mary is listening? Does she listen to all prayers?

She is in the presence of God and we have faith that God will allow her to hear our calls for her to pray for us. I'm not sure what the exact powers of perception divinized saints in the heavens have (that would be speculation on my part) but regardless I know from the teachings of the Church and its Fathers that God will somehow allow her to hear. The miracles brought forth through her intercession are also evidence of this.

 

[Judson]

But, in praying to the saints, is there an underlying belief that they somehow possess greater merit, or have more 'influence' with God?

Where is this idea taught in scripture? it seems to me that even we, on earth, are "seated with Christ in the heavenly places."

Also, how do you square praying to the saints with Jesus' command "when you pray, say 'Our Father' ..." ?

Isn't it true that only God should be prayed to? Only he is worthy and able to give what we ask? Why do you call it "praying" to the saints?

 

[Christos Anesti]

Isn't it true that only God should be prayed to? Only he is worthy and able to give what we ask? Why do you call it "praying" to the saints?

One of the definitions of "pray" is "to make an earnest pettion". Some of the synoms for the word "pray" you can find in a thesaurus are "to, importune, entreat, supplicate, beg, beseech, implore." That is the sense in which we pray to the saints . We do not offer them the worship that is due to God alone.

But, in praying to the saints, is there an underlying belief that they somehow possess greater merit, or have more 'influence' with God?

James 5:16

"Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. "

There is a special power in the prayer of arighteous man (or woman).

 

[Judson]

James 5:16

"Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. "

There is a special power in the prayer of arighteous man (or woman).

But note the context of James 5:15-17
"and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much. Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months."

first, note that James is speaking of elders of the church who pray.
Second, he says that Elijah was a man, just like us.

If anything, this demonstrates my point that the saints in heaven are in no better position than us now.

If you assume that the saints are still finite and not omnipresent, then how can they know who's praying to them?

Also, is there some underlying belief that praying to Jesus is not enough, that we need the help of the saints?

 

[Christos Anesti]

Second, he says that Elijah was a man, just like us.

Yes all men have a human nature. In his nature he was just like us. We can all attain to righteousness with the grace of God. That doesn't imply that all men are equally righteous or that there is not a special power in the prayers of a "righteous man" though.

Also, is there some underlying belief that praying to Jesus is not enough, that we need the help of the saints?

Would you ask that of a person who told one of their pastors or fellow Christians to pray for them? We pray for each other because God commanded us to do so , because we love on another, and because there is power in prayer.

If you assume that the saints are still finite and not omnipresent, then how can they know who's praying to them?

God makes it possible for them to hear us. I'm not aware of the exact technical manner this is made possible and I'm not sure it's really necessary to know or speculate about. It's possible some of the Church Fathers have discussed the issue though. I will look into it.

 

[Judson]

When I ask a friend to pray for me, I say, "Can you pray for me that ...."

Is this what the orthodox say? I always heard that you say things like "Mary, save us" or "St Anne have mercy on me" or something like that.

When you pray to saints, it seems you literally speak to them like they are God, like they have the ability to bless you directly, don't you?

 

[Protoevangel]

Why do you not ask the Father directly?

Have you ever asked a friend to pray for you? If yes, then why would you do that and not ask the Father directly?

Your answer is probably, "I do ask the Father directly, but I ask my friend to add his prayers to my own", or something similar, right?

It is the same. We ask our friends who have already gone on to be present with Christ to add their prayers to ours. It in no way replaces our own prayers to God.

 

[Macarius]

When I ask a friend to pray for me, I say, "Can you pray for me that ...."

Is this what the orthodox say? I always heard that you say things like "Mary, save us" or "St Anne have mercy on me" or something like that.

When you pray to saints, it seems you literally speak to them like they are God, like they have the ability to bless you directly, don't you?

Most commonly, we do ask them to pray for us.

Actually, the MOST common way we request the prayers of the saints is by asking God to LISTEN to the prayers of the saints. i.e, at the end of our daily prayers, we pray "Through the prayers of our holy fathers, O Christ our God, have mercy on us and save us."

In other words, we ask for Christ's salvation, but that He would (for the sake of love and unity) honor the prayers of the saints who request this very salvation, whether they be saints residing with Christ in paradise, or saints we know not of who live still on this earth.

We frequently pray "through the prayers of the Theotokos, O Savior, Save Us!" In other words - we assume that any 'salvation' (generally meaning temporal salvation from something - not the eternal / final salvation which comes from Christ, though she did play a part in that) which comes from the Theotokos comes from her prayers. So if we do pray "most Holy Theotokos, save us" we mean it in this way.

Do not think of it in technical theological terms, but as the desparate prayer of a dying man. To me, whether I am saved by the direct action of a saint or their prayers is useless semantics. The point is that I am so ill that even uttering the request for help is too much for me, and that help arrives (which I know is help from God, whether through a saint or not) is enough for me. The form matters not - only that God saves.

 

[Judson]

So, it seems there is a sense in which you see the saints as performing a mediatorial work on your behalf?

If so, doesn't this challenge the truth that Christ alone is our mediator?

My whole problem is that prayers to saints seem to suggest that Christ needs "help" to accomplish things for us.

 

[Christos Anesti]

So, it seems there is a sense in which you see the saints as performing a mediatorial work on your behalf?

But again you could ask the same thing about a Christian who asks another person to pray for them. If your pastor, minister, etc prays for you would you (or he ) be wrongly challenging the unique mediatorial role of Christ with the Father?

 

[Protoevangel]

So, it seems there is a sense in which you see the saints as performing a mediatorial work on your behalf?

Only in the same way that asking you to pray for me is asking you to perform a mediatorial work on my behalf.

If so, doesn't this challenge the truth that Christ alone is our mediator?

I don't know... Does asking you to pray for me challenge the truth that Christ alone is our mediator?

My whole problem is that prayers to saints seem to suggest that Christ needs "help" to accomplish things for us.

How does asking you to pray for me suggest that Christ needs "help" to accomplish things for us?

 

[Judson]

It's acceptable as long as you believe that the saints themselves have not performed a mediatorial act for you, but has only requested God to do something for you. There is only one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus (1 Tim 2:5).

In other words, they have not exercised any miraculous "power" to save you, but it has been totally the hand of God, and ONLY the hand of God, the entire time. Is this what you believe? The wording of your prayers to the saints seems like they are exercising some special power that we on earth do not have.

My main question would be, then, how do you know they hear you? Are they not finite? How do they hear the prayers of millions of believers, and how do they have time to make a supplication for each person? They are not omniscient or omnipresent - how can I be confident that they are listening? (I know this sounds rationalistic, but this is my struggle).

 

[Christos Anesti]

Rev 5:8
8And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders(A) fell down before the Lamb,(B) each holding a harp, and(C) golden bowls full of incense,(D) which are the prayers of the saints.

The Bible makes mention of elders in heaven offering the prayers of the saints to God.