Orthodox Q & A

[Ioustinos]

Hi

I have been looking into Orthodox Christianity and I struggle with a couple of main points. The greatest being the devotion shown to Mary, the Theotokos.

For example I read this Kontakion:

In your holy birth, Immaculate One, Joachim and Anna were rid of the shame of childlessness; Adam and Eve of the corruption of death. And so your people, free of the guilt of their sins, celebrate crying: "The barren one gives birth to the Theotokos, who nourishes our life." - Translation by Narthex Press

The language used in this seems to place praise on Mary for something that was only accomplished by Christ Jesus.

Any help or explanation?

Thanks

 

[choirfiend]

yup--"In your birth...adam and eve were rid of the corruption of death"--The Theotokos gave birth to Christ. Christ came into the world because of her acceptance of Him, and the corruption of death came through His Birth, Life, Death, and Resurrection.

"nourishes our life" The Theotokos carried Christ, nourishing Him in her womb, and after birth. Christ is our life. She nourished our life!

 

[Kristos]

I guess it's all about perspective. When I read that, I see honor passing through the Theotokos to Christ Himself. When we honor the creation, we honor the creator even more. Can you say that you love Van Gough, but hate his paintings?

 

[127.0.0.1]

Our salvation comes from Christ. Were it not for the Theotokos, if she'd said "no" Christ would never have been born and wouldn't have died for our sins. So we owe her much. She's basically god under God. Christ tells us, (JN 10:34) that we are gods, each of us is a 'lil god-in-process. The Theotokos is our Church's greatest Saint, had she not submitted to God's will, God wouldn't have worked through her. God works in conjunction with human free will, not against it.

 

[choirfiend]

We become God-like, but we do not become "gods." We are called to the inheritance of the Son, and as such are children of God, but I think that wording is very sloppy and not a good representation of Orthodox teaching.

 

[127.0.0.1]

Christ tells us that we are gods. Each of us is a 'lil god in process. The Eucharist deifies us. Eat God become a god. You are what you eat, no? I think what you mean is...we become like God however we do not become, God. That is true.

John 10:34 (Young's Literal Translation)

34Jesus answered them, `Is it not having been written in your law: I said, ye are gods?



John 10:34 (King James Version)


34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

John 10:34 (New King James Version)

34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’?[a]


Psalm 82:6 (New King James Version)


6 I said, “You are gods,[a]
And all of you are children of the Most High.


Psalm 82:6 (King James Version)


6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.


Psalm 82:6 (Young's Literal Translation)

6I -- I have said, `Gods ye [are], And sons of the Most High -- all of you,


"God became man so that man might become a god." - St. Athanasius

 

[Miknius]

The next verse is revealing (Joh. 10:35).

 

[127.0.0.1]

The next verse is revealing (Joh. 10:35).

You mean this?

John 10:34-36 (King James Version)


34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

 

[Miknius]

Yes. There's nothing about theosis or becoming a god.

 

[127.0.0.1]

Yes. There's nothing about theosis or becoming a god.

What do you mean? Theosis is the cornerstone of Orthodoxy.
LINK A: Wikipedia
LINK B: Book: Theosis, The True Purpose of Human Life

It was quite significant when God was born of a woman. Christ is both fully God and fully man.

 

[choirfiend]

We participate in God's energies in theosis, but not His essence. There's quite a bit of theological delicacy to be careful of when speaking of such matters--and Commando, you're doing a poor job of it, which is misrepresenting the Orthodox teaching and sounding ridiculous to inquirers.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Were it not for the Theotokos, if she'd said "no" Christ would never have been born and wouldn't have died for our sins.

Do you seriously think God would allow a human to jeopardize his divine plan? He wouldn't have come to her if she wouldn't have said yes. He knows everything you're going to do before you do it. Besides, if an angel came down to me and said that I was to take part in God's divine plan, would I dare reject him?? "Hmm let me think about that Gabriel, I'll get back to ya."
Indeed, she said yes, but the angel came there with a purpose. It is clear from scripture that he comes saying what his purpose is, and not asking "permission" so to speak. She consented, yes, but to say that Jesus wouldn't have come to this earth if she said no to the angel is, in my mind, ludicrous.

 

[127.0.0.1]

We participate in God's energies in theosis, but not His essence.

That's true. God's Essence is unknowable.

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Do you seriously think God would allow a human to jeopardize his divine plan? He wouldn't have come to her if she wouldn't have said yes. He knows everything you're going to do before you do it. Besides, if an angel came down to me and said that I was to take part in God's divine plan, would I dare reject him?? "Hmm let me think about that Gabriel, I'll get back to ya."
Indeed, she said yes, but the angel came there with a purpose. It is clear from scripture that he comes saying what his purpose is, and not asking "permission" so to speak. She consented, yes, but to say that Jesus wouldn't have come to this earth if she said no to the angel is, in my mind, ludicrous.

See, God gave us this thing called "free will," so yes, the Theotokos could have said "No."

What you are stating is contrary to Orthodox teaching and smacks of Calvinism.

 

[choirfiend]

After all, a human did screw up His divine plan--Adam did not do what God wanted him to do, but God is loving--it was not the end of the divine plan.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Yet but God is all knowing, is he not? Obviously he doesn't manipulate peoples minds or free will, but he knows all, past present and future. To say otherwise is to limit God's omniscient capabilities.

I believe I've digressed. My main point was that it is silly to think that if God's offer was rejected by one human (the Theotokos) then he wouldn't have sent his Son to save the rest of humanity.

Certainly, when Adam and Eve sinned, they were the only humans on the earth, and they represented all of humanity.

 

[Macarius]

What would have happened is irrelevant.

What matters is what DID happen. She said yes - and by her submission she overcame the dis-obedience of Eve. For all we know God asked another woman and she said "no" and then God went to Mary... hypotheticals are a) pointless and b) dangerously close to speculation.

Mary said yes. By this yes, salvation came to us. She is not co-redemptrix (an RCC teaching), but we DO (retroactively, through the timelessness of heaven) ask her to save us in recognizing the important role she played.

It's like we're stuck in a pit, and only Christ has the ability to pull us out, but the pit is deep so Christ needs some rope. Mary went and got Him the rope. Now - we wouldn't say she pulled us out, but if we were aware she was running for the rope we might ask her to run faster (perhaps by crying "save us!"). Then, we could easily recognize that it was still Christ (alone) who pulled us up and genuinely saved us.

In Christ,
Macarius

 

[Judson]

Mary said yes. By this yes, salvation came to us. She is not co-redemptrix (an RCC teaching), but we DO (retroactively, through the timelessness of heaven) ask her to save us in recognizing the important role she played.

It's like we're stuck in a pit, and only Christ has the ability to pull us out, but the pit is deep so Christ needs some rope. Mary went and got Him the rope. Now - we wouldn't say she pulled us out, but if we were aware she was running for the rope we might ask her to run faster (perhaps by crying "save us!"). Then, we could easily recognize that it was still Christ (alone) who pulled us up and genuinely saved us.

I'm not an Orthodox, but would like to dialogue on this.

If Mary "co"-operated with Christ in a significant way for the redemption of man, how is she not considered the "co"-redemptrix?

To say that Christ "needed" rope and Mary somehow supplied him something he needed, and if it were not for her salvation did not happen, then is this not the same as the RC view of her as co-redemptrix?

Also, going to Holy Scripture, how do square EO teaching with 1 Tim 2:5
"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"

In light of this passage, how does an EO person justify saying "Theotokos, save us?"

thanks.

 

[Judson]

Our salvation comes from Christ. Were it not for the Theotokos, if she'd said "no" Christ would never have been born and wouldn't have died for our sins. So we owe her much. She's basically god under God. Christ tells us, (JN 10:34) that we are gods, each of us is a 'lil god-in-process. The Theotokos is our Church's greatest Saint, had she not submitted to God's will, God wouldn't have worked through her. God works in conjunction with human free will, not against it.

Yes, I tend to agree with Ortho_cat and Choirfiend. Your statements here are doing two dangerous things:

1. Presuming that God's eternal plan could have been so easily thrwarted by the uncooperation of a human being.

2. Calling Mary "basically a god under God" is dangerously close to blasphemy.

I fail to see (and maybe you guys can help me understand) how this does not deify Mary to a status that she does not have. This shows that your veneration of the Virgin is soaring a little too high, and I think is a major danger with the EO and RC doctrine in general.

I'm interested in truly understanding the EO distinction between veneration and worship. And to say "worship belongs to God alone" is not helpful; that is mere tautology. What is it that is going on in your own mind and spirit when you venerating Mary and worshipping God? When you say, "Theotokos save us!" are not those words causing you to think that Mary actually has salvific power and authority?


thanks.

 

[Christos Anesti]

St Athanasius from "On the Incarnation":

"God became man so that man might become god."

St Ireneus said

"the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through his transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself."

And St Maximus the Confessor (from the Philokalia v3 pg 178)

"A sure warrant for looking forward with hope to deification of human nature is provided by the incarnation of God, which makes man god to the same degree as God himself became man.... Let us become the image of the one whole God, bearing nothing earthly in ourselves, so that we may consort with God and become gods, receiving from God our existence as gods. For it is clear that He who became man without sin (cf. Heb. 4:15) will divinize human nature without changing it into the divine nature, and will raise it up for his own sake to the same degree as He lowered himself for man's sake. This is what St Paul teaches mystically when he says, '...that in the ages to come he might display the overflowing richness of His grace'