Orthodox preterism/amillenialism

[iamlamad]

The postmil concept is a beautiful idea, however the globalists seem to be putting things in place now to push us into a one world system.
Therefore, I do not think the postmil view is correct.

The term amillennial means "no millennium" which is not a correct term.
A better term might be postCrossmillennium for me.
Sometimes putting someone in a particular box does not always work.

The 20th chapter of Revelation is full of symbols and is one of the most difficult texts in the book. Attempting to figure out what is figurative and what is literal in this chapter is very difficult.

Read the following article which helped me see that the Gog/Magog battle and the battle of Armageddon are the same. The mountains can only be destroyed one time.
This fact places the end of Revelation chapter 20 at the battle of Armageddon.


Is the Gog Magog War the Battle of Armageddon ?
Gog of Magog - Here a little, there a little - Prophecy


One of my favorite local Baptist pastors is old-school, nondispensational, premill.

There will always be different points of view on the things that none of us know for sure, while we are in this world.

When posting on this forum, avoid those who will call you or others fool, liar, baby, troll, blind, arrogant, etc. Be prepared for that.

Some will want to make peace with you one day and spit in your face the next day.
That is just the way it is here.

I am certainly no saint myself. It is easy to get frustrated and say something we should not say.

Welcome to the battle... I mean Forum.

This post is a classical example of why there are so many different views. Some can read a very plain scripture such as Satan being bound for a thousand years and think it can't really mean what it says, so they try to come up with some theory that it could mean this or it might mean that - instead of just believing it exactly as it is written. I don't find anything in Rev. 20 hard to believe as written.

Is this chapter "full of symbols?" No, it is not. It is just that some have preconceived glass on (preconceived theories) that a literal reading will not fit into. May I suggest to you that you decide right now you will not try to fit a scripture into a theory, but rather form a theory from what is written.

Many find it necessary to rearrange Revelation to fit their preconceptions. I don't think anyone has that right. It is written with God's divine chronology and it makes perfect sense in the order it is written. Some even go so far as to move (in their theory) one of the numbered events OUT of its sequence (sequence of 1 through 7) and move it to the end as if John and the Holy Spirit could not count. The truth is, they are numbered for sequencing and are in their proper order. However, some are so sure of their preconceptions they attempt to rearrange Revelation.

I heard this long ago and nothing could be said any better to study Revelation:

"If the plain sense makes good sense seek no other sense lest it result in nonsense " Author unknown

I wrote this one myself:

"ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong."

 

[parousia70]

Many find it necessary to rearrange Revelation to fit their preconceptions. I don't think anyone has that right.
"ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect and will be proven wrong."

...Says the Guy who claims "Must Shortly take place for the time is near" actually means exactly the opposite of what it says.....

 

[ebedmelech]

Hi all. could anyone recommend any reading whether it be websites or books on amillenialism and orthodox preterism for someone very new to the subject. Thanks.

I would start with R. C. Sproul's book "The Last Days According to Jesus".

Realize that the common attack by dispensationalist against those who see historical fulfilment in the OT prophets is to try to lump them in with full preterism.

 

[Straightshot]

"If the plain sense makes good sense seek no other sense lest it result in nonsense"


That makes perfect sense

And Sproul is a preterist recanter .... he was pushed back by debaters to a half point position and then tried to deny his change

Now he is stuck in the middle and cannot recover from his falling back

Preterism is preterism no matter how one cuts up the unfulfilled prophecies by selective dividing .... the trick is to keep some of the literal, and then to commit the things that do not fit the preterist preconceptions into allegory and metaphor

Those who claim to be "partial" preterists like Sproul .... are still preterists, and do major damage to the Lord's prophetic word

And amils are even greater abusers of the allegorical metaphore methodology by wasting away mounds of literal prophecy yet to come .... those who intentionally skip over

 

[ThatTrueLight]

Whenever I hear of preterism or amillennialism, I immediately think of spiritual wickedness in high places.

Is that bad?

My daddy often taught me to call a spade a spade.

This stuff is spiritual wickedness.

That's all I can say.

 

[Jipsah]

You might be further ahead not wasting your time on this, since they are based on fantasy.

Sure, The "reality" is that the 70*7>2000, the Temple was never actually desecrated and destroyed, sacrifice and oblation never really ended, the Romans never sacked Jerusalem, a "generation" is >100 years, and on and on. Those are some of your "realities" as opposed to the "fantasies" of orthodox preterism. All ya gots to do is chuck out those history books and make it up ads you go. Wheee

 

[Job8]

...Says the Guy who claims "Must Shortly take place for the time is near" actually means exactly the opposite of what it says.....

Rev 1:1-3, 19
1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

THINGS WHICH MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS (Rev 1-5)

THINGS WHICH SHALL BE HEREAFTER (REV 6-22).

The things which shall be hereafter did not terminate in the first century. To believe that fantasy is to be self-deceived.

 

[Jipsah]

That question is, should the plainly stated prophecies in the Bible be taken as literal statements of future events, or should they be taken as symbolic representations of future events.

Now lessee, OrthPreds believe that Daniel's 70 weeks of years adds up to 490 years. Futurists believe that 70 weeks of years works out to be greter than 2000 years. Which one did you say was symbolic? And of course I've always gotten a chuckle out of the notion that the cessation of temple sacrifice as foretold by Daniel has not taken place, even though no sacrifice has been made for over 2000 years. Longest lunch break ever, I reckon.

It'd be more honest to say that futurists take almost nothing literally. Driven by the necessity to make their doctrine "work", they spiritualize way like murder again and again, where OrthPreds are quite content to take the Word literally.

And don't get me started about abominable futurist beliefs like the one that say animal sacrifice will be resumed in The Millennium. Based, of course, on the idea that some obscure prophecy just can't have been fulfilled yet, and thus it's gonna happen despite the Ultimate Sacrifice made by our Lord on the Cross.

If you conclude that the prophecies should be taken at face value...

... then you're never gonna make it as a futurist.

 

[jduck1986]

Obviously Futurists and Preterists disagree. I get that. I'm more interested however in the disagreement within the preterist camp and those who are not preterist but not dispensational either (amillenial or historical). Kenneth Gentry and Kim Riddlebarger both agree that there is a double fullfilment in Matthew 24. Someone like Gary DeMar believes Matthew 24 is entirely about AD 70. the reading of Matthew 24 and the interpretation of it seems to be a crucial issue for the non premillenial position. Discuss.

 

[Jipsah]

The preterist pushes unfulfilled Bible prophecy into the past

You mean like the cessation of sacrifice, right? Y'all are still waiting for that one, so I've been told.

["preter" .... is Latin for past] with the idea that there is nothing left to be fulfilled .... even the second coming of Jesus Christ [/quote] We OrthPreds await the return of our Lord (see my tag line).

This aberrant idea then feeds the false doctrine of the Amil theology

Aberrant only if you subscribe to the heap of made-up-as-you-go, one-from-column-A/one-from-column-B, knight-jump "exegesis" required to make futurism "work". Most of us aren't.

If you want related scriptures I will give them to you

Whether they're actually "related" or not.

 

[Jipsah]

Whenever I hear of preterism or amillennialism, I immediately think of spiritual wickedness in high places.
Is that bad?

Dunno. Is goofy equivalent to bad?

My daddy often taught me to call a spade a spade.

Mine taught me to call a spade a shovel. Futurists don't believe that the spade has been invented yet, or that if it has it wasn't the prophesied digging implement.

This stuff is spiritual wickedness. That's all I can say.

So to believe that 70*7=490 is wicked, zat what you're telling us? Dang, Engineers and Accounts are all doomed, aren't they?

 

[ThatTrueLight]

One of the simplest prayers given to the LORD's people was to pray that His kingdom would come and that His will would be done on earth as it is in heaven.

How in the world can anyone even begin to be led to believe (nevermind actually believe it) that this is the kingdom of God.

The belief that this is the kingdom of God makes a complete mockery of how the LORD taught men to pray.

Might as well throw it out, this is the Kingdom of God now, right?

Seriously, what in the world is that about?

 

[BABerean2]

Obviously Futurists and Preterists disagree. I get that. I'm more interested however in the disagreement within the preterist camp and those who are not preterist but not dispensational either (amillenial or historical). Kenneth Gentry and Kim Riddlebarger both agree that there is a double fullfilment in Matthew 24. Someone like Gary DeMar believes Matthew 24 is entirely about AD 70. the reading of Matthew 24 and the interpretation of it seems to be a crucial issue for the non premillenial position. Discuss.

If you have not seen it yet, and you have a few minutes, watch the following to see the original source of the modern version of Dispensational Theology.

It may help you understand the Jesuit influence on both Full-futurism and Full-preterism.

You may also hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth from those on this forum who will deny the source of their doctrine.


Genesis of Dispensational Theology (on YouTube)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee4RS5pDntQ

.

 

[ebedmelech]

One of the simplest prayers given to the LORD's people was to pray that His kingdom would come and that His will would be done on earth as it is in heaven.

How in the world can anyone even begin to be led to believe (nevermind actually believe it) that this is the kingdom of God.

The belief that this is the kingdom of God makes a complete mockery of how the LORD taught men to pray.

Might as well throw it out, this is the Kingdom of God now, right?

Seriously, what in the world is that about?

It's pretty simple if you read the scriptures correctly. Every believer is in the kingdom, so the kingdom is already existent in us who believe.

Paul made it clear in Colossians 1:13 that we are in the kingdom:
13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son

In the eschaton, the kingdom will come to earth. However, one has to realize God's plan for all whom He will save is not complete. This is why Peter tells us we are "aliens and strangers" here in 1 Peter 1:11.

As far as I'm concerned the kingdom has not come to earth. However, Jesus has all authority in heaven and on earth just as Matthew 28:18 says! He works His will until the eschaton happens, which is what we await. That is when the kingdom comes to earth.

 

[ThatTrueLight]

It's pretty simple if you read the scriptures correctly. Every believer is in the kingdom, so the kingdom is already existent in us who believe.

And Christian believers are citizens of heaven, not earth. That's why we set our affections on the things above and not on the things on earth, for we are dead and our life is hid in Christ with God.

As far as I'm concerned the kingdom has not come to earth.

Not yet it hasn't, that's right.

 

[riverrat]

If you have not seen it yet, and you have a few minutes, watch the following to see the original source of the modern version of Dispensational Theology.

It may help you understand the Jesuit influence on both Full-futurism and Full-preterism.

You may also hear the wailing and gnashing of teeth from those on this forum who will deny the source of their doctrine.


Genesis of Dispensational Theology (on YouTube)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee4RS5pDntQ

.

The wailing and gnashing of teeth on this forum comes from those that deny that the source of dispensationalism is the Bible.

 

[ron4shua]

Greetings brother jduck 1986 , your thread , Orthodox preterism/amillenialism .


Question [ “ Hi all. could anyone recommend any reading whether it be websites or books on amillenialism and orthodox preterism for someone very new to the subject. Thanks. “]


I believe your best source is Scripture . For starters the words “ amillenialism and orthodox preterism “ are missing , completely missing in all of the 50 “ VERSIONS of Scripture translations I've read . A truth seeker could say there manifestation of the human intellect .


My advice to you , being a staunch believer & knowledge of the “ Good News “ of our Elohim's plan with 100% obedience to that loving propitiation . Study the word for yourself & trust nothing or anyone , save for your own received “ free gift “ , after all it's HIS job anyway . There's all kinds of study aids on-line . Keep the understanding that ALL “ VERSIONS “ of Holy Writ is biased to a less or greater degree . So never use just one or two . Don't pray for Scripture revelation , the Spirit will make you dig out every detail . Before you start studying “ thank our Elohim for the revelations , your going to be allowed to understand “ and wisdom will flow like a river .
Your Brother in Messiah , the servant , ron .

 

[Straightshot]

Good advice from ron

 

[Jipsah]

I believe your best source is Scripture . For starters the words “ amillenialism and orthodox preterism “ are missing , completely missing in all of the 50 “ VERSIONS of Scripture translations I've read .

I don't see "futurism" "dispensationalism", or any similar rubbish mentioned in Scripture, either, so I guess that wraps it up for those noxious, hand-wrought doctrines.

A truth seeker could say there manifestation of the human intellect .

While in describing dispensational futurism that same Seeker would probably dispense with the noun at the end of the sentence. <Laugh>

 

[Bible2]

BABerean2 said in post 13:

Read the following article which helped me see that the Gog/Magog battle and the battle of Armageddon are the same.

Note that Revelation 19:19-21 on the one hand, and Revelation 20:7-9 and Ezekiel chapters 38-39 on the other, are 2 different events, separated by over 1,000 years (Revelation 19:19 to 20:9). After the first event, Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3), while after the 2nd event, he will be cast into the lake of fire to suffer forever (Revelation 20:10).

Revelation 19:19-21 is the battle at Jesus' 2nd coming, which Zechariah 14:2-5 shows will occur at Jerusalem. After that battle will occur Jesus' physical reign on the earth (Zechariah 14:9-21) with the physically resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). It won't be until after the 1,000 years that the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-9, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

BABerean2 said in post 13:

The mountains can only be destroyed one time.

Actually, mountains can be destroyed more than one time. For God can miraculously raise mountains up (Isaiah 2:2-3).